Ask an Atheist.

reply to post by Kaytagg


Tell me this as far as evolution. Could the DNA patterns themselves result in anything other than what they do result in? And does that not mean that what those DNA patterns result in are actually pre-determined already?

I'm not against evolution exactly, but I think to say that is all there is too it is about like saying the trunk of an elephant 100% describes an elephant.

reply to post by Kaytagg


To elaborate on your post recently.

They asked children in a certain time of their lives, particularly really young.

They showed them a puppet show of a mouse being eaten by a alligator.

Afterwords, they posed questions to the children.

Does the mouse need to eat or drink: Unanimously they said no.

Does the mouse need air, or the such: Same a no

Now the fun one

What does the mouse think: They all posed answers to the what the mouse thinks!

Well it doesn't think one because it's not a conscious being, two it's dead!

It was truly riveting for a person like me

Click here for more information.

SEE Look above this is that radical *SNIP* I was talking about! I backup a fellow atheist and a stupid "RELIGIOUS" excuse of a moderator pulls my post! *SNIP* I have had it!!!!!!!!!!


[edit on 10-8-2009 by theconspiracyman]

...and that just got you banned. Cheers -alien

[edit on 10-8-2009 by alien]

reply to post by theconspiracyman


Wow umm. OP clearly discourages this type of answer.

Please edit, please. We stand up enough, we need not criticism in this thread.

Trying to keep it civil.

Reply to post by theconspiracyman

We clearly haven't read the whole thread have we?

Such a shame too, it's only on it's 2nd page. That just goes to show how much research you in particular put into the statements you've undoubtedly made to back your stance.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by Republican08

Originally posted by badmedia
Why do you not think it silly to consider anything which is beyond your limited perspective is by default false?

Doesn't really work all that well for the ostrich.




[edit on 8/10/2009 by badmedia]

It seemed antagonistic, and distasteful, nonetheless i'll have a crack at it.

We're not ostriches. Point 1

It seems silly itself to embrace and live the entire which is quite long and short life you have around an idea solely because it is deemed unthinkable.

IE Teapot theory.

Or stork theory, yet that can be disproven after years and years of trying to.

It was silly for people to believe in zeus, yet it is still being done.

I hesitantly say silly, only because the poster brought it up, it's not meant to be an attack on a person, not falling in that trap!

No, it was an honest question. I am myself a former atheist, and the realization of the question I gave you is what made me think twice about being such a thing. I realized I was being a bit foolish to say that anything that came across my perspective is false, considering what a small perspective we have on all things.

As the question is what had me change my mind and general outlook of things, it's pretty much the question I would ask any atheist.

Read my sig on my opinion about belief. The question itself had nothing to do with belief, but towards if you were being a bit closed minded.

reply to post by Agree2Disagree


It's still got a good potential to be a very appropriate thread, I'm surprised only two users have become inappropriate. This is good news!

I'm exhilerated by a nice debate or questionaire between theist and atheist

Reply to post by Republican08

I too am excited to see where this might lead. If only I could s&f from mobile...

I will, regardless, be keeping a keen eye on this thread.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply to post by badmedia


lol, I should've known better then to assume BadMedia was being rude, although I did.

I was a bit curious at my thought for it though.

I'll go against my OP, though I'd wish a mirror thread would appear so my urge to question back could be quenched. lol.

What do you consider yourself then, since believers are close minded, and unbelievers are close minded?

Originally posted by Agree2Disagree
Reply to post by Republican08

 

I too am excited to see where this might lead. If only I could s&f from mobile...

I will, regardless, be keeping a keen eye on this thread.

 

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

 

I can only imagine when the really theistic people join in for a wonderful discussion question thing.

I'd surely love to hear from OldThinker, no offense, I really do love if I may him as a member, Great guy, great person altogether, just religious lol.

He inspires me and makes me question alot about myself, as I'm sure many like him will do. Or i'll hold a formittable rebuttal for them.

Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by Kaytagg

 

Tell me this as far as evolution. Could the DNA patterns themselves result in anything other than what they do result in? And does that not mean that what those DNA patterns result in are actually pre-determined already?

I'm not against evolution exactly, but I think to say that is all there is too it is about like saying the trunk of an elephant 100% describes an elephant.

Do the blueprints of a building describe the final structure?

Does DNA describe the organism?

Both are a resounding yes, although environment plays a factor as well. Plants have a gene that creates a mechanism to draw potassium out of the ground, but if you replace potassium with another element, sometimes the plant draws that element out of the ground instead of potassium. This is a problem some island dwelling plants in the pacific are having right now, due to nuclear bomb tests. The element they're extracting (which it treats like potassium) is radioactive, and the fruits of the plant are deadly to consume. The plant doesn't know this, it is designed to take potassium out of the ground, but the environment has thrown a curve ball into that design, and so something different happens.

The genes of the plant will tell you what the plant is designed to do, but it wont tell you exactly the state of the plant in the present.

The blue prints to a vacuum pump will tell you what it's designed to do, but if you turn it on, you could find it pumping out varying substances, or nothing at all.

In that way, you can't tell everything about the elephant from it's trunk. But from DNA, you can know what the organism is designed to do -- putting it in different environments will give you different results. Just like a vacuum pump put into water will extract water, put into oil will extract oil, put into a coal mountain it will pump out nothing, etc.

Genes in DNA are like blueprints to a building or any other machine. They are moderated by the environment and natural selection. This is why a Fish lives in the ocean, instead of on land. It doesn't matter how many fish you pull out of the ocean and throw in the middle of a desert -- they will never ever be able to survive, because their genes are designed to work only in specific ecosystems in the ocean.

The genes are the blue prints for how the organism will work. It does not matter whether those genes can be used for anything else, or if they have to appear in a unique way throughout every organism. This does not make them "pre-determined," it simply makes them the ideal blueprint for a particular organism in a particular environment. Which, if any, of the genes in an organism are suitable for an environment is determined by the environment itself. Thus, a fish can not survive in a desert, even though there are a plenty of living organisms that can survive in a desert. The ones that can survive in the desert have the proper blueprint for that environment.

Originally posted by Agree2Disagree
I have a question.
Why do atheists and theists not get along so well together when in all actuality, we're all searching for the same thing - the truth?

...maybe it has more to do with personality types and ego than anything else... i've known lots of theists over the years and only a few were unpleasant but being a theist isnt what made them unpleasant...

...we're not all searching for the same thing... truth is relative to the perceiver - subjective, like art - and there is no such thing as "the ultimate truth", imo... some people are searching for something to give them comfort... some are searching for redemption... some are looking for an audience... i'm searchin' for a man with a big horse (thats a joke)...

...theres a great line in a song by ray wylie hubbard (he's my cousin - thats a joke too, lmao) that says "there are those who are condemned to write - they sparkle and they fade away"... works for me...

Reply to post by Wyn Hawks

Yes, I can see how personality or ego may come into effect. Very valid point.

As for the truth, that topic itself is only a matter of opinion. You have yours, I have mine, others will have theirs, that's just the way humans work. And I happen to believe that life itself is simply a hide and seek game. Truth has been hiding, we have been seeking, to no avail. Some may not even realize it....they may be searching on a subconcious plane instead.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by Republican08
reply to post by badmedia

 

lol, I should've known better then to assume BadMedia was being rude, although I did.

I was a bit curious at my thought for it though.

I'll go against my OP, though I'd wish a mirror thread would appear so my urge to question back could be quenched. lol.

What do you consider yourself then, since believers are close minded, and unbelievers are close minded?

Well, as a child I grew up in the deep south. Bible belt of America. I spent many years in a county called Cullman Alabama. Now, all you need to do is ask anyone who is familiar with the area, and they will tell you that is about as bible belt as you can get in the US. Just to give a bit of reference, I was nearly suspended from school twice in the 2nd grade. Once because my hair touched my collar, and the 2nd time because my jeans had holes in the knees, both because of being poor.

So I rejected it all, became an atheist. The above realization came to me, so I became an agnostic. And I figured I dunno about god, and considering the things they say about god, I seriously doubt anyone else does either.

I stayed there for awhile, and I started to think about things. I eventually kind of thought, well big universe, I bet there is probably a higher chance of god, than there not being a god - but I still figured nobody had a real clue about it.

Then one day, out of the blue and from nowhere, completely unexpected - I no longer had to wonder. To make a long story short - I am god, and I am arguing with myself, but the father is much greater than us. Meaning, we are actually both the same "being", and in the end there is but 1 observer of all things, but with many "eyes".

Something didn't come from nothing. But rather, that which is unlimited has limited itself in order to bring about this reality. A filtering out of what is possible is what creates this reality, the same way white light contains all the possible colors, but we do not get the individual colors until some of that is filtered out.

I'm certainly not saying you should believe in god. A belief is just a belief no matter what the belief is. Either way, you don't really know.

If you wanna spend $10, I would recommend getting this book:
The God Theory

It is written by an astrophysicist with tons of credentials. I have no read it for myself, but from what I have read and gathered from his theory, I am in complete agreement with him.

Somewhere between the hardcore reductionists who explain all things as merely the sum of their parts and greet every suggestion of spirituality with a sneer, and the unquestioning faithful who receive their beliefs full-blown from prophets and preachers, lie the skeptical but open-minded free thinkers curious to investigate their own nature and purpose in life. Are you one of them?

THIS excusee of a webbsite shoudl change it;s name to "above normally moderated! what @ complete # hole! Moderators here kiss admins ass untill their cheeks r as red as a #ing cherry!

reply to post by badmedia

Something didn't come from nothing.

Then why would God come from nothing, when what's so wrong with a world coming about without design.

I thought about this the other night, seems fitting.

As I make myself a sub particle, I looked around and say look how unorganized everything is, it's all bunching back and forth erradicactly, there is no design.

I grow and see atoms, well there well put together but still very erratic little design if any at all.

I grow bigger, I see earth as it is, and say what a round planet, what a group of people and little but good evolution, there must be design here somewhere.

I grow bigger and see the solar system, and say wow, this is beautiful there may be design here.

I grow bigger and see the galaxy, wow some s head got lucky down there apparently.

I grow bigger to see the universe and say wow what a mess everything is bouncing against each other and all disconjubled all out of whack what a mess no design here.

If you get what i'm saying.

We happen to be a percent that had to come, and consider others like ourselves which isn't there.

Like saying how do I put this! lol, umm to perceive is to know what can happen, and to say it happened by chance well only those that happened upon by a chance can say it!

Not saying evolution is chance more natural selection but the habitable spots for it to occur is quite a chance indeed.

reply to post by Kaytagg


Right, but all that about the desert and such is survival of the fittest, which I think is a pretty obvious fact if we look about.

This is hard for me to explain, so please bear with me. I am trying to search for the right combination that explains it well.

What I mean is there has to be something beyond the DNA itself which brings about an organism. A blueprint as you say is a good analogy to things, as I would consider the cells to be self-reproducing nanobots which follow that blueprint.

The house isn't built on the blue print alone. And could one not have a database of all possible blue prints?

I think of DNA as being like a configuration file of a program. Where the configuration itself will determine the actual looks of things and so forth, but it is the code itself which brings about the actual program.

Each thread on these forums for example all share the same code. However, it is the configuration of each page that makes them unique. The changing of variables.

As such, the study of genetics is to me an attempt at trying to reverse engineer the code. Has to be something beyond it all than the DNA and such.

Originally posted by heyo
As a christian, I can see the curiousity in every one of the threads he writes. If you're a christian, or spiritual, i might add, and rightly, ask him some questions.

I propose that you are of the mind that the scientific method doesn't run your life, so you don't rely on it. You can neither prove nor disprove what you believe. Going off of that, my accusation is that my faith is black and yours is white.
catch my drift?

I've actually had to read through this quite a few times to 'get your drift' lol.

Scientific Method is my ten commandments so to speak.

Although religion is like, woah hold up, not religion, belief in a higher power, is a big stump in the yard while trying to mow lol.

My faith is white and yours is black, and racism is real no matter who says it isn't.

So of course tension will occur.

I cannot prove a god, nor disprove it, but if you cannot prove your god, is it really a god? Does a non provable thing make it worth praise and glory and 10% of your paycheck (religously speaking)

although you could say is it worth not praising, well yes it isn't worth it, as much as zeus isn't worth my praise.

Originally posted by Kaytagg
Did you ever belong to a religion?

...nope...

Do you think there is any validity in using Religion as a means of keeping social harmony in a society?

...no... religion "used as a means" is no longer religion but poltiical oppression...

Do you think it's easier for people to turn to atheism today, where God(s) and super-naturalism seem to be more irrelevant than ever before in history.

...nowadays, its easier for everyone to question anything and everything and thats a good thing...

reply to post by Republican08


I can answer the question about god and something coming from nothing if you really want. But it will require you to understand why time itself is not actually real and so forth and will be a huge discussion in itself.

You are pretty close with what you say about perception, but it is that which is able to perceive that is "god", and that you are actually god that allows you to perceive.

If you really really really think about these things, at some point you will come to realize it's impossible for you not to exist. How could you perceive such a thing? To be, or not to be?

But yes, I seriously recommend that you continue in your line of thought and pondering about perception and perspective. That will lead you far. As you are on such a thought process, I will just wish you luck and try not to cloud things for you. You will need to hash them out yourself, and nobody can do that for you. Even if I gave you the right answers, does not do you any good if you can see/understand and come to those answers yourself.

Know thyself.