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Why You Know Nothing...About Anything (Myself Included)

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posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 04:11 PM
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Well, it's time to discuss truth. Over the past couple of weeks I've been bombarded with members on this board and in my life in general, attempting to tell me what the "truth" about something is.

I would like to open a discussion about truth, what it means to you and how we go about our lives with the arrogance of "knowing" something.

Yes, truth, in it's most basic form is described as the following:



n., pl. truths (trūTHz, trūths).

1.Conformity to fact or actuality.
2.A statement proven to be or accepted as true.
3.Sincerity; integrity.
4.Fidelity to an original or standard.

5.
Reality; actuality.
often Truth That which is considered to be the supreme reality and to have the ultimate meaning and value of existence.


Source

Now let's examine the definition. We see here that the truth, is a statement of actuality backed up by facts. We must ask ourselves, what are facts?


fact

noun

1: a piece of information about circumstances that exist or events that have occurred; "first you must collect all the facts of the case"

2: a statement or assertion of verified information about something that is the case or has happened; "he supported his argument with an impressive array of facts"

3: an event known to have happened or something known to have existed; "your fears have no basis in fact"; "how much of the story is fact and how much fiction is hard to tell"

4: a concept whose truth can be proved; "scientific hypotheses are not facts"

Source

When looking at this definition we see that a fact is something that has existed or taken place, an event. Or something that can be proven as true through scientific analysis or mass witness accounts for instance.

But truly, how do we know what is true and what is fact? Can we truly trust science to give us such answers, or to provide us with the facts that lead to the truth?

The answer is quite simply no. The reason is the definition of science.


The word science comes from the Latin "scientia," meaning knowledge.

How do we define science? According to Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, the definition of science is "knowledge attained through study or practice," or "knowledge covering general truths of the operation of general laws, esp. as obtained and tested through scientific method [and] concerned with the physical world."

What does that really mean? Science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge. This system uses observation and experimentation to describe and explain natural phenomena. The term science also refers to the organized body of knowledge people have gained using that system. Less formally, the word science often describes any systematic field of study or the knowledge gained from it.


Source

So science is the study of knowledge, and the experiments we as humans create to understand the laws that govern our existance in this place we call the 3rd and 4th dimension. It is a system.

This system however is based on our ability to come up with the concepts to study. It's based on our limited tools. Literally it is our best guess at the time.

So if science is our best guess, how can anything be truth? How can we confirm without any shadow of doubt (excluding personal experience, see below) that something either exists, that something did exist, or the reasonable truth behind these things?

We cannot.

This concept is not only applicable in science, I use this example only because most people's "truths" are derived from a scientific study or explanation. This concept can apply to religion, to virtually any other school of thought you can imagine.

Another example would be colours. Something we use everyday. I may say "That's a green pen." But the "truth" of the matter is that I've never seen a colour. I've seen plenty of shades of colour, but never an actual colour.

Everything is subjective to the human experience. In my belief, we are the makers of our own reality, so when I say above that I exclude personal experience from this conversation it is for the following reasons.

1. Nobody will ever be able to disprove something you have experienced, simply because they are not you, and you are not them. Everybody experiences things differently. For example we all know what the colour green looks like. However my interpretation of green might be what you see as pink.

2. There is no ammount of scientific data that can account for 1 person's experience of any single event. It is impossible to analyse a person's experience, unless the same exact person was doing the analysis.

So let the discussion begin, what is truth? How can we attain knowledge of anything when our greatest tool - science, is only our best guess at the time. And what happens when science eventually finds something that changes our entire perspective of how things are?

Thoughts ATS?

~Keeper




posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 04:20 PM
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reply to post by tothetenthpower
 


Great thread. Totally agree. Look forward to the semantic arguments and twisting it around to suit themselves *"Yes I knew nothing but now I do!
*
to just start rolling in now.
It's what I had to deal with. But you did a better job than I did with my simular thread.


[edit on 9-8-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 04:23 PM
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reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
 


Thanks for the heads up
.

I'll be sure to monitor this one, I am a fierce Alert Button user haha.

I'm sure it will be generally nice however, my threads usually don't devolve too much.

~Keeper



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 04:25 PM
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reply to post by tothetenthpower
 


I Agree with you ,
Also does Socrates.

Socrates said:

I know that I know nothing

en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 9-8-2009 by Solidus Green eye]



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 04:34 PM
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reply to post by tothetenthpower
 



I agree with you..reality is subjective.
We need to all step back and let each other breathe.

good post..s&f



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 04:38 PM
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reply to post by Solidus Green eye
 


Ahh but what a double standard eh?

Because technically, even saying you know nothing isn't the truth, for you cannot know if you know nothing.

It's very very confusing, but none the less I really enjoy Socrates.

~Keeper



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 04:40 PM
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reply to post by tothetenthpower
 


I think he was more talking about the idea that you truly know nothing. IE approach everything with a open mind as you can always be wrong. Because our preconceptions do blind us.

[edit on 9-8-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 04:45 PM
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reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
 


I agree, you always must approach everything with an open mind. A biast opinion will only lead you to a biased answer, that at the end of the day, is still only an educated assumption of truth.

~Keeper



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 04:50 PM
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There are a few fundamental truths

I am
this is (the world)
You are

If we are, and exist, and have consciousness, then that's a truth.

That the subjective interpreter, the one who makes relative distinctions in relation to, some sort of objective reality, exists in relation to that reality, is also true.

BUT, that reality within which we are emersed as experiencial participants and co-creators, it resides in a state of absolute uncertainty and of seemingly infinite potential, which appears to be attempting to realize itself through consciousness, as the height of a creative possibility, actualized in a way through our subjective experience of the objective reality. And so I would say that it is also true that subjective and the objective are in a relational framework of some kind.

Thus, the objective reality or truth IS available for experience..

But can WE know precisely what it is, or how it works? No.

I think the best we can do is to KNOW that we are IN "it" whatever "it" may be, and that we are in it together.

And that we share the same gound of being, and potentia, whatever it may be, also branches into another set of truths, or principals, with which to have fidelity, is to explore the nature of the truth, which seems to have something to do with love.

I am
This is
You are
I love you


[edit on 9-8-2009 by OmegaPoint]



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 04:53 PM
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reply to post by OmegaPoint
 


Thanks for the reply OmegaPoint, that's a very good description and I appreciate your imput.


f we are, and exist, and have consciousness, then that's a truth.


I could agree with you here, since in all honesty I am pretty sure I exist and that we are and that the world is. However, it could be all a construct of some kind could it not?

The possibly that everything is truly nothing, is still there. Absolute truth is something of a myth, yet people cling to such things on a daily basis.

Is a notion of comfort? Or an instinctual response to fear of the unknown?

~Keeper



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 05:06 PM
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reply to post by tothetenthpower
 


You said :
So science is the study of knowledge

Not exactly ...


Epistemology

Epistemology (from Greek episteme-, "knowledge, science" + λόγος, "logos") or theory of knowledge is the branch of philosophy concerned with the nature and scope (limitations) of knowledge. It addresses the questions:

    What is knowledge?
    How is knowledge acquired?
    What do people know?
    How do we know what we know?
    Why do we know what we know?
Source : Wikipedia

Whereas -


Science

Science (from the Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge") refers to any systematic knowledge-base or prescriptive practice that is capable of resulting in a prediction or predictable type of outcome. In this sense, science may refer to a highly skilled technique or practice.

In its more restricted contemporary sense, science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge based on scientific method, and to the organized body of knowledge gained through such research. This article focuses on the more restricted use of the word. Science as discussed in this article is sometimes called experimental science to differentiate it from applied science—the application of scientific research to specific human needs—although the two are often interconnected.

Science is a continuing effort to discover and increase human knowledge and understanding through disciplined research.

Source : Wikipedia

Anyways, it may seem like splitting hairs, but there you have it. As long as we're discussing the matter, a little precision can't hurt.

The epistemological rabbit hole is a ridiculously convoluted one which IMHO leads to nowhere but a giant migraine headache !

Finally, I would have to agree with your OP - we really don't know very much at all.

But, as they say -


A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

and, IMHO, that first step is to


Know thyself !




posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 05:06 PM
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Thank you OP that is the one TRUTH i have been able to see out of all my research on various subjects of life. The more you know the more you don't know. By the time you find an answer to 1 thing 3 more questions arise. Everyone out there looking for truth are looking for whats right and whats wrong, but truth is no thing is truly right and no thing is truly wrong. no matter what you use to back up your statements there is always something to prove or dis-prove your facts/statements.

Thnx for sharing OP hopefullly more people read and understand what you are saying before they go discrediting people's versions of truths.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 05:08 PM
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Why You Know Nothing...About Anything (Myself Included)


Excellent rant. I have to admit that each day I look in the mirror, is one that I am both more familiar and less inclined to like who I am.

Of course, it helps to create the stigma of detachment. I know that I am no longer young enough to know everything but... over the period of almost six decades I have been around, I am more and more sure that most people are imbeciles. (Including myself, on occasion.)

To thine own self be true... but do try and get to know that person gazing back at you each morning before writing us all off.

...



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 05:12 PM
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I think the unknown uknown realm of unknowing CAN be known or experienced. My point is that due to the fundamental relationship between subjective and the objective, that the objective is available for direct experience. Some people have been there, to that place of absolute knowing of the unknown. It can be contacted through conscious experience, but never described or effectively communicated to another. Many believe that the true nature of undifferentiated or indistinguishable consciousness, is consciousness itself, but without distinction, or a relative position. It's a frame of reference which has no frame of reference and therefore cannot be subjec to any description whereby langauge collapses meaning in judgement.
So I guess I'm suggesting that there IS a truth lurking, like the blue sky beneath a haze of clouds or a fog, you cannot percieve it directly, most of the time and under normal circusltances, but it's still there, the absolute objective truth and reality. To deny it, is to deny one's one existence in relation to it imo.
Mostly I am adding these ideas for the atheists and those who think us believers are out to lunch, and who believe wrongly, that they can use logic, philosophy or science to somehow marginalize our wholly authentic spiritual experience, an experience, at least in part, of the larger truth, which remains, like an ocean of uknown possibility, but still, nevertheless THERE.

It cannot be known in an intellectual way, only experienced, but that is the very essence of knowledge, experience is. You cannot know something fully until you've experienced it, been emmersed within it.

So there's a mystery which can be known via experience, imho.

Furthermore, I believe our own nervous system is at core, hard wired with the very possibility of having this larger experiece, this epiphany about one's own fundamental relationship as part of the all in all, which being all in all, and including or integrating the part, absorbs it, and expresses itself through it. Transparent to the transcendant in non judgemental presence - that absolute state of uknown knowing IS accessible. It is good to remember that, that "he who seeks, finds".

[edit on 9-8-2009 by OmegaPoint]



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 05:15 PM
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Indeed. Socrates himself would be proud! There is simply too much... death, I think, happens for many a reason. One is so that we cannot know the entire truth.

Good thread!

-Ze'Jesta




posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 05:20 PM
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reply to post by tothetenthpower
 


Yes but socrates divided 'knowing' into two types

the ''pseudo knowing'' and the ''real knowing''.

''Pseudo knowing'' accounts for the self awareness of not having knowledge.

''Real knowing'' stands for the knowledge you know you don't have.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 05:22 PM
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He who thinks he knows, knows not, but he who knows that he knows not, knows.
~ Confucius



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 05:25 PM
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Originally posted by OmegaPoint
There are a few fundamental truths

I am
this is (the world)
You are


[edit on 9-8-2009 by OmegaPoint]


Almost. In philosophy we say:

' The counterpart ' I, am I, and you are you
' The activity ' I do this, and this happens
' The identity ' This is me now, the same as yesterday and tomorrow
' The oneness ' I am one with being me



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 05:31 PM
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reply to post by visible_villain
 


It's not splitting hairs my friend, this is the exact response I was hoping to get, thank you for adding it to the conversation
.

I agree with you, there are two branches of truth, when it comes to science and then the pseudo-knowing that Sacrotes has mentioned in his writing.

Thanks for replies everyone, keep them coming
.

~Keeper



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 05:32 PM
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Double Post, Apologies mods, please remove if required..

2nd..

~Keeper

[edit on 8/9/2009 by tothetenthpower]



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