Reaffirming Our Desire For Productive Political Debate (REVISED)

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posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 02:33 PM
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Originally posted by whatukno

I do like this idea, but I think it is going to be difficult for many to adhere to. Especially when rhetoric is involved.


HAHA! That's the first thing that you've ever said that I agree with you.

Rhetoric is the nature of the beast. And so is counter rhetoric.

I would think (and plead for) a thick skinned approach with some tolerance should prevail.

Name calling; That's just low, bordering on adolescent. Even the best of intellects would have their posts banned/deleted/censored...

I'll give one classic example...

Winston Churchill: Go forth and multiply, alone.

Another more contemporary example:

Emails from BarackObama.com calling the pro-HeathCare reformists a 'grassroots' movement? And people that just show up at a town hall to protest are called astroturf?

Astroturf = Fake = Fraud... That's a serious charge.

Since MSM is tilted towards Pro - Administration and auto-insults anyone opposed... Are you asking those opposed to sit down and shut up?

Otherwise ATS is going mainstream? That's a bad word for ATS.

It's a serious question given the circumstances; unless I'm misunderstanding the guidelines?

Thanks Again ATS is great sounding board in any event.




posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 02:40 PM
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Originally posted by RRconservative
reply to post by dodadoom
 


To suggest that ATS has a bias towards Obama has nothing to do with hate.

I'm not sure it is a polical bias though. During the election you could not log onto ATS without Obama's smiling face asking for a donation. It was unavoidable, and the crackdown on political speech here on ATS coincided with his nomination by the Democrat party.

The OP makes a great point, but the point is concealed within a bias.



I really don't think any bias exists on the part of ATS itself.

At some point you do have to put the breaks on the politically charged rhetoric.

If cooler heads don't prevail, the next thing people will be openly calling for violence or attempting to organize violence and that really is the last thing an excellent source of information like ATS needs to sully itself with.

The site in my humble opinion is really about proving or disproving conspiracies.

A lot of these political discussions especially the left/right arguments rarely if ever speak to the conspiracy angles but rather just the party lines.

It then starts to boil down to Howard Dean said this; Rush Limbaugh said that...yawn.

Part of what the OP might be saying in a round about way, is people falling into this left/right trap and simply parroting party lines are kind of missing the whole conspiracy angle of ATS and in the process possibly falling prey to the main conspiracy a lot of us on ATS are trying to expose that the left and right both have the same Masters and the left and right only exist to create and foster arguments to shield and hide the real conspiracies possibly being carried out by Government and those involved with Government.

Personally I feel people who want to just engage in the left/right argument which is their right to do so, should be engaging in it on Bellow Top Secret, because there is no conspiracy related angle to the left/right argument, save the left is up to no good according to the right, and the right is up to no good according to the left, while both those in the left and right camps imagine that nothing untoward or conspiracy oriented could be going on in their affiliated party.

It's true that a lot of the conspiracy theories are far fetched and hard to prove and based often on pure conjecture and assumption but that's what makes ATS fun!

The left/right party lines are actually kind of boring in my humble opinion and if you want to see a debate between the left and right solely based on party line I think getting two TV's and keeping one on CNN and one on FOX would cover all those angles.

Ultimately anyone seriously into conspiracy theories is never going to fall for or accept any party line or party argument.

People who subscribe to the left really aren't going to hop on over to the right no matter what you say or how you say it.

People who subscribe to the right aren't really going to hop on over to the left no matter what you say or how you say it.

The left and right basically just exist to argue with each other about the left and right on half the issue, because the government never really ever discloses the whole issue or the agenda for you to argue about.

They work on that, while the left and right argue with each other.

It's great if you have conservative values and you enjoy them.

It's great if you have liberal values and you enjoy them.

Being uncivil about one's values and ramming them down other peoples throats rudely...not so great!

It's still a conspiracy site though that encompasses a lot more than partisan politics and the fact that there are some presumably conspiracy related partisan politics discussed shouldn't turn the site into a counter productive slug fest between left and right talking points and propaganda.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 02:43 PM
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reply to post by SkepticOverlord
 



(2) Alterations of a politicians name for disparaging political effect is not allowed, including within member avatars and signatures.


Does this apply only to politicians, or does it extend across the board? For example, calling Rush Limbaugh "mush loosebowels", which I see a lot of.

Also, I'm interested in seeing the effect on avvies...



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 02:47 PM
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Meet The New Troll, Same As The Old Troll

There's absolutely nothing new about trolling being unwelcome on ATS.

Political trolling (aka "p-troll") warnings first appeared years ago, during the Bush administration. The criteria for issuing them have always been clear and are independent of the specific opinions expressed, as are the terms & conditions upon which they are based.

Additionally, the owners and staff have been calling for civility and decorum in all forums since long before many of us were members.

The only thing new about this particular call to sanity is that it comes in response to the latest wave of madness.

Members who are inclined to view the enforcement of our longstanding rules on courtesy as reflecting some sort of bias should consider that nothing in any of our policies is based on any member's opinions on the issues.

Specifically, whether posts are pro- or con- the current administration has absolutely nothing to do with whether they comply with ATS rules for civility.

Members who observe violations of our rules are encouraged to ALERT offending posts, regardless of what political affiliations may be expressed.

For anyone who may have missed the numerous related threads on this stubborn, perennial problem, please review the following links.



Related Threads

Civility and Decorum are Required

Civility And Decorum Are Required on AboveTopSecret.com

A Call To Action: Ending The Political Game on ATS

The Quadrennial Exploitation Of The Moronic Masses

New Policies for Political Bickering on ATS ## MAKE IT STOP! ##

The End of Political Baiting and Sniping on ATS

Related Topics

How Not To Be Banned From ATS...

Trolling, And What To Do About It

Ad Hominem Attacks And You

Courtesy Is Mandatory


Seriously, folks. This is nothing new, and anyone who truly believes our longstanding policies against rude, disruptive behavior are somehow motivated by political bias on the part of over sixty staff members (with varying perspectives on pretty much everything) can only do so in ignorance of the facts.

So please, Deny Ignorance and help us ensure that ATS remains a place where members can politely share their opinions on the issues, however controversial they may be, without being attacked, harassed or ridiculed for doing so.

Thanks.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 02:50 PM
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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Lets face it, I don't think anyone on ATS is out to harm or hurt anyone.




Not entirely true. I have been physically threatened in U2Us many times.

But the way I see it; It takes a real man to challenge someone on the www.


I plead guilty to name calling and I had to bare the red flag of shame on more than one occasion.
I'll try to improve. The current name calling situation has gotten completely out of control. I don't envy the mods.

One of the phrases that always get my knickers in a twist is "it's People like you" that one needs to go!!




[edit on 9-8-2009 by whaaa]



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 03:02 PM
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May I inquire as to why the word Idiots is allowed to remain in this topic title, in light of the new policy set forth by SO?

I do believe this is a slap in the face to all of us who disagree with the bill.

Title,
"Why I'm Tired of Idiots Opposed to Health Care Reform."


www.abovetopsecret.com...


[edit on 033131p://bSunday2009 by Stormdancer777]



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 03:06 PM
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Thank you ATS, you always step up. Kudos to staff once again.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 03:08 PM
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reply to post by Stormdancer777
 


I'm pretty sure that was made before the announcement just like this thread.


Why I am tired of Idiots supporting the current Healthcare Bill

i feel so sorry for the mods on this one. And in other cases this mostly occurred during election time. I have a bad feeling about this though, there is no end in sight.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 03:08 PM
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Originally posted by whaaa

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Lets face it, I don't think anyone on ATS is out to harm or hurt anyone.




Not entirely true. I have been physically threatened in U2Us many times.

But the way I see it; It takes a real man to challenge someone on the www.


I plead guilty to name calling and I had to bear the red flag of shame on more than one occasion.
I'll try to improve. The current name calling situation has gotten completely out of control. I don't envy the mods.

One of the phrases that always get my knickers in a twist is "it's People like you" that one needs to go!!



[edit on 9-8-2009 by whaaa]


Wow, physical threats is a real stretch.

The phrase "It's people like you" is an introduction to a broad personal insult. Some posters just spew loads of BS then get personal.

Name calling is below us. My tongue bleeds at some ATS'ers...

Be clever and intelligent about quips; they can be far more insulting than calling someone a turd. AND not in violation of T&C.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 03:09 PM
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reply to post by Stormdancer777
 


The issue is actually under discussion by the staff and will be resolved soon.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 03:10 PM
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reply to post by whaaa
 





Not entirely true. I have been physically threatened in U2Us many times.


I have gotten a couple of nasty U2Us but I just ignore them, and don't respond. I don't think they are really credible threats because most people intent on violence wouldn't create an electronically documented trail for investigators.

It's just people showing frustration that their arguments and points aren't being received well.

Most people like that end up banned within a short period of time because the staff really does do an excellent job at monitoring the threads.

I can say this that the two people who are most diametrically opposed to my opinions and views on this site (very credible and worthy debaters of the most impressive ilk) are on my friends list.

We exchange friendly U2Us from time to time because we respect and admire the depth of conviction and passion and knowledge we each put into our debates.

We agree on almost nothing except that we admire each others intelligence and skill at debating the issues.

The reality is there really is no reason not to get along or be friendly and friends with people who have different perspectives, beliefs and views.

In fact it's an excellence source of balance and additional perspective in life.

Opposites do attract and it's a fine line that separates hate and love that can turn on a dime.

They are both powerful emotions stemming from basically the same area of the mind which is why we often love to hate to things that people we love do despite the fact we love them.

You can attract more flies with honey than vinegar that's for sure.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 03:12 PM
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u2u's

If you do get a hostile u2u then the best cource of action is to notify the staff. Who then can investigate the issue at hand. As with Chat, the u2u system is governed by the same T&C as the rest of the site.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 03:13 PM
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reply to post by Stormdancer777
 


There's another one now ... It's the other side of the coin.

Why I'm Tired of Idiots Opposed to Health Care Reform

Maybe they are letting these two counterpoints burn themselves out.

I'm all for thick skinned political rhetoric without name calling. Point and counterpoint. That's debate. Cleverly crafted insults are appreciated by all.




[edit on 8·9·09 by DrMattMaddix]



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 03:13 PM
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There's a political forum on ATS??


lol..


Seriously though,I stay out of politics on ATS(and everywhere else really) for the most part, it just gets WAY to heated and circular for me. My parents always told me two things you don't argue is religion and politics. Everybody has their own personal views and no one will ever concede they are wrong (for the most part) unless a paradigm shifting event happens, and still even then....lol

I am glad to see this action, although I obviously don't post in the political forums here on ATS I still know the chaos that goes on in there. It is always good to see actions taken to make the ATS community a better place.


[edit on 8/9/2009 by jkrog08]



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 03:15 PM
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reply to post by DrMattMaddix
 


The titles in question have been fixed.
When the staff takes action, there is always a discussion beforehand and that is what was going on in this case. Yes they were posted before this thread but, they still would have been altered regardless.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 03:16 PM
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Does this mean that we all can go back to the times where we were called names for political views and alert on them? Because honestly if we are turning back time and changing threads and posts that are already around, why can't everyone go back and alert on situations where this happened against their favor?

I can think of quite a number of threads regarding topics like abortion, gay rights, and general politics which I would assume there would be ongoing discussion regarding even before this thread was created.

[edit on 8/9/2009 by ravenshadow13]



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 03:16 PM
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reply to post by FredT
 


Well done ...

That's why you guys get paid the big bucks.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 03:18 PM
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Good move!


Some of us here come here for information and perspectives, but when there's highly explosive breaking news and the 100+ page thread is filled with 'you right wing nutters' or 'you left wing sheeple' it get's difficult for those of us who stand above this petty divide and conquer mayhem to get to the facts. Move aside please!


It seriously amazes me how many people still buy into the party system of representative democratic government... They have the country divided smack right down the middle, they juggle their priorities or scandals every other week and then we have to drudge through all the preconditioned emotionally charged mud slinging to figure out how exactly we've been duped this time...

One question though: Can't the deleted posts be shrunken to a two line message or so, to create more space on thread pages? Now they get this huge colorful banner which takes up a lot of space but adds zero.


Great move ATS



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 03:18 PM
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I guess what I am trying to say is, I wonder if
we could do away with "political trolling" too?

It seems some, with their names or signatures, are instigating this.

Some forget it is a conspiracy site, and resort to bashing because
some topics are too "out there" for them.
Instead of being constructive and adding helpfull information.
My hats off to ATS for enforcing the rules.
Without the mods, all it would be is a constant name calling game.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 03:28 PM
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Very good it was getting nasty in some of these political threads.

This one got me interested


(2) Alterations of a politicians name for disparaging political effect is not allowed, including within member avatars and signatures.


There have been some very hilarious avatars made up from both sides, regardless of the political spectrum your on. The Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney in the car grooving to "What is Love" comes to mind.
I understand the words must come down, but does the picture too.

So I have three questions for clarification purposes for any MOD that would like to answer them.

I hope the Avatars are allowed to continue, if not how are you going to enforce it? Total Ban?
For example that new Joker face of Obama would that be banned as an Avatar under the new rules?

Otherwise everything else must be done as SO/OP says to keep this site as awesome as it always has been.





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