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Reaffirming Our Desire For Productive Political Debate (REVISED)

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posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 12:41 PM
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reply to post by symmetricAvenger
 





The very thing you said i pointed out in a thread that got very heated over the POTUS.. seems crazy how some people react without facts and only think of another posters comments..


The funny and sad thing is that a lot of people react so passionately thinking they are trying to 'save' the other person.

Maybe you could call it a Mesiah complex where they become ardently engaged in trying to convince one specific person thinking wow I am going to save this lost soul from their 'false' idealogy and show them the 'light'.

It then often becomes highly personal between debating posters with one trying to one up the other and score points at the other's expense.

Yet in most cases though at first glance it appears mean spirited most of the people engaging in those tactics really are under the dillusion they are doing the 'right' thing by trying to 'personally' 'reach' or 'save' the other poster.

There are a few posters who are just plain veral but very few, most of them just labour under false assumptions and an over zealous desire to do good.

I try my best to take most of it with a grain of salt for that reason.

The sad thing is that any time any situation turns confrontational both sides loose. You might intimidate, humiliate, or cower your opponent into submission but you really haven't won anything, because a person convinced against their will is a person who remains unconvinced. You haven't made a friend or a productive partnership and even the imagined winner in the exchange walks away a looser because they have failed to make a friend, but at best simply made a point at the expense of gaining a potential friend.

Manners and civility should always rule the day and mature adults should always be able to agree to cordially and respectfully disagree when after civil debate they have exhausted all arguments and points and still disagree.

They could still agree to be friends and friendly towards one another.

Lets face it, I don't think anyone on ATS is out to harm or hurt anyone.

At least I hope not, so there really is no reason for any of us to not all be friends despite the things we agree to disagree on.

Thanks for responding.

[edit on 9/8/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]




posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 01:01 PM
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reply to post by SkepticOverlord
 


Lets face it, like it or not, everywhere in the world politics is a contentious issue.

Your site, your rules but you're wasting your time as far as i'm concerned.

People get heated about issues that matter. Politics is one of the big three.

Just my opinion.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 01:09 PM
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reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
 


you make a great point. If we "going to go a bit deep here" have views on any subject matter at hand.. is that not what ATS is about?

We all signed up to be civil, and to be honest. That is all we can be, the debate comes from a different point of views "hence debate" some agree and some dont.

its the facts that count in any given topic, then we debate the facts form an opion and voice it as shuch...

we should ALL repsect each others points of view for we all no nothing and pretending otherwise.. is well... a joke


told you i was going to go deep


sorry



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 01:11 PM
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reply to post by phoenix103
 


Asking that people post thier opinions and debate the issues at hand with a modicum of civility and decorum is harld a waste of time or effort. THis has been the ATS was since I started here 5 years ago.

Sound bites? Hit and run posting attacks with little or no merit, name calling and worse have NO place here. We as members need a place that we can discuss topics that effect us on a day to day basis in a rational manner.

Its pretty simple and its why so many of us came here and have stayed.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 01:12 PM
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reply to post by phoenix103
 


its not about the subject its about the method in what is being debated is "overseen"

why? because people AGREE no to slander and insult each other while talking about is the moon made of cheese.......

that is the point here... And right now ATS had put its foot down on the WAY that the "debate" is being conducted by SOME members of ATS.

kinda simple really



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 01:13 PM
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Lurking a long while, joined recently.
The left & right rhetoric here is much less then elsewhere. they are 2 sides of the same coin. Do you want to throe some more change in. (winl, wink)

Is this a conspiracy board or not? Why not create our own conspiracy?
using electoral-vote.com... as a baseline

Tough races
Colorado, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Kentucky, Louisiana,
Missouri, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Carolina, Ohio

Easy for Dems
Arkansas, California, Delaware, Hawaii, Indiana, Maryland,
New York, New York, North Dakota, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Vermont,
Washington, Wisconsin

Easy for Reps
Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Georgia, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Oklahoma,
South Carolina, South Dakota, Utah

I think a businessman/woman with an engineering degree would make a great president. They could do process charts and with a business background know where to cut. But what about the senate?
What kind of party would it be and what would be the platform?
Who could we push (new) and who could we subvert?
Anyone want to start a conspiracy instead of talking about others?

This is 36 races. If we could take 20 of them that would be 1/5 of the senate. A good place to start.
You would then see which Dems & Reps start marching in lock-step.
Let's get the trash out of the house and see where the bad smells are really comming from.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 01:17 PM
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Originally posted by SLAYER69
In some of the very heated and long discussions of this type for example we will see an obviously false but very popular statement on page 1 or 2 with like 50 stars then on page 3 or 4 somebody will slam them with the true facts and it gets like 1 star. Then somebody will post the same false garbage on page 8 or 9 or 20 obviously they didn't read the Fact post. On and on we go.


It happens and the only way to fight that kind of stuff is with well thought out replies and responces. Fighting this kind of fire with fire is a zero sum game and it in effect causes us (one of the last bastions of free thinkers) to play the game as Skeptic Overlord stated. We should not be playing thier game, we should be setting the example and do better



I do not envy the mods on this one.


Its not that bad. For every post that I may have to take intervention on, there are going to be at least 100 that will make me stop and think about it. That and applause is one of the highest compliments I have to give. The fact that You or another member made me stop and think about your position, even if I dont agree with it, and think about how it effects mine, is exactly why we are and should be here.

As Mods, we will use the T&C as out guide book as we always do. Will there be a few that simply cannot step away from the pettyness that has effected both sides? Sure, but for me and the majority this will come as a relief and perhaps more can join the debate who were driven off by the very same petty partisan bickering.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 01:24 PM
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By thus determining and thus acting, you will pursue the plain and direct road to the attainment of your wishes. You will defeat the insidious designs of our enemies, who are compelled to resort from open force to secret artifice. You will give one more distinguished proof of unexampled patriotism and patient virtue, rising superior to the pressure of the most complicated sufferings. And you will, by the dignity of your conduct, afford occasion for posterity to say, when speaking of the glorious example you have exhibited to mankind, "Had this day been wanting, the world had never seen the last stage of perfection to which human nature is capable of attaining."
.


George Washington ---- The Newberg Address March 15, 1783


[edit on 8/9/09 by FredT]



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 01:29 PM
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This is a change for the better and I know that my fellow members are more than able to discuss such a topic with out resorting to things that they should not resort too.

I do understand how one can become frustrated when discussing politics. I have done so myself. When that happens, step away from the computer for 10 or 15 minutes. Go outside and get some fresh air and think about something else beside the issue that got you upset.

ATS is full of very intelligent people with all kinds of beliefs. It is inevitable that there are going to be differences of opinion from time to time. It is how you handle that difference that makes or breaks a post.

If you are able to handle such a topic in an intelligent and civil manner you will find that you receive a lot more respect in return.

With these new rules we will make ATS a better place and an even safer place to discuss such topics free from ridicule and insults and other unwanted things that you may receive from the outside world.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 01:33 PM
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A very welcome back to basics SO and Staff, thanks.

The rhetoric was getting a bit much to handle lately. I was wondering why there was so much trolling and political infighting going on without much mod intervention, I hadn't taken the POTUS election into account.

Perhaps now we can allow the cool heads to prevail in our day to day discussions and help curb the word vomit.

~Keeper



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 01:37 PM
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While I am certainly political and as guilty as anyone of getting carried away...I welcome this...I have found myself of late seriously considering deleting ATS from my bookmarks because of the direction debate has turned of late...

To see threads calling Obama the anti Christ or a messiah does absolutely no good...

Saying that the health care reform proposals will give everyone free access to a doctor is just as disingenious as claiming it will cause death clinics to be set up for the elderly...

Both are baldfaced lies.

I would also add that besides the political threads...ones such as

Is Islam the synagogue of Satan does this site no good at all either.


Nor do some of the more idiotic threads about star gates and hollow earth and all that nonsense...

It seems to me some of this stuff is simply posted by bored people with nothing better to do and none of them do anything for the credibility of ATS.

But reigning in the political attack threads will be a good place to start.

[edit on 9-8-2009 by grover]



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 01:45 PM
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reply to post by FredT
 


I'm not saying i disagree with the principle, just that in practice, its easier said than done to police effectively.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 01:46 PM
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Thank you so very much, honestly the hateful disinformation that has been floating around has made me wish I could lock myself into the UFO forum and never look anywhere else. I look forward to seeing a change in tone on some of the more "flash point" threads.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 01:53 PM
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It's a great time to crack down on this nonsense. Obama is taking a beating in the polls, his inexperience is showing and he is destroying this country with his socialist policies.

ATS shielded him during the election, so it is no surprise they will shield him while his popularity and job approval plumment.

Would have been nice for ATS to implement this during Bush, but I guess it was not worth it to them at the time?



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 02:03 PM
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Originally posted by RRconservative
It's a great time to crack down on this nonsense. Obama is taking a beating in the polls, his inexperience is showing and he is destroying this country with his socialist policies.

ATS shielded him during the election, so it is no surprise they will shield him while his popularity and job approval plumment.

Would have been nice for ATS to implement this during Bush, but I guess it was not worth it to them at the time?


Hang on, ATS has done nothing to protect Obama, or any other political party or candidate, or past president. I have been around long enough to see their neutrality.

Did you even read the opening post?

No matter what side of any issue you are on, all it means that civility will be enforced, and the rules will apply fairly to all. If you read those rules in the opening post of this thread and see that as an attempt to protect one side of any issue you completely missed the point, please read it again.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 02:05 PM
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reply to post by RRconservative
 

You're just a little late to the party, my friend.
Bush has had a fair hand in the destruction, if not most of it with his false war and tax cuts and bailouts for the rich. Obama is just continuing it.
Should be proof that neither side can be trusted or has all the answers.
By bashing obama you do not help matters, but to help
continue the divide that exists here that ATS is trying to remedy.
Indeed by your very name you have proven this.

Instead of spewing hate, why not propose solutions?



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 02:09 PM
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reply to post by dodadoom
 


To suggest that ATS has a bias towards Obama has nothing to do with hate.

I'm not sure it is a polical bias though. During the election you could not log onto ATS without Obama's smiling face asking for a donation. It was unavoidable, and the crackdown on political speech here on ATS coincided with his nomination by the Democrat party.

The OP makes a great point, but the point is concealed within a bias.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 02:26 PM
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Originally posted by RRconservative
reply to post by dodadoom
 


To suggest that ATS has a bias towards Obama has nothing to do with hate.

I'm not sure it is a polical bias though. During the election you could not log onto ATS without Obama's smiling face asking for a donation. It was unavoidable, and the crackdown on political speech here on ATS coincided with his nomination by the Democrat party.

The OP makes a great point, but the point is concealed within a bias.



The only bias the OP shows is towards civil discourse.

Are you arguing for vulgarities and name calling? Do you really believe asking people to stop name calling and using terms like Ovomit and O RLY is an attempt to protect anything other than productive political discourse?

In short, how does asking us to clean up our act on all sides protect Obama?



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 02:28 PM
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Originally posted by RRconservative
reply to post by dodadoom
 


To suggest that ATS has a bias towards Obama has nothing to do with hate.

I'm not sure it is a polical bias though. During the election you could not log onto ATS without Obama's smiling face asking for a donation. It was unavoidable, and the crackdown on political speech here on ATS coincided with his nomination by the Democrat party.

The OP makes a great point, but the point is concealed within a bias.



With all due respect are you under the impression that this is the first " crack down" we have ever had to do? It is not. There were crackdowns when Bush was in office as well.

I am not sure where you are seeing bias. The new rules stop BOTH sides from doing and saying things that both sides should not have been doing and saying in the first place.

Now if the new rule said, "no republicans can speak their mind" I would agree. If it said "No democrats can speak their mind" I would agree.

It does not say that though, these are rules for all political affiliations and they are and will be enforced equally. Anybody who breaks any of these rules will have action against them. Not just republicans and not just democrats.





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