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Freemasons, I would like to ask some questions please.

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posted on May, 11 2004 @ 06:29 PM
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I would like to ask Freemasons on the board a few questions if I may.

1) Are Freemasons anti or pro Zionist?
2) Are they for legalizing Marijuana?
3) Would they rather have Bush or Kerry as president?
4) Are they anti Fluoridation?
5) Are they anti Depleted Uranium?
6) Do they believe in one or many Gods?
7) Do they help veterans with Gulf War Syndrom?
8) Does the rule of law preclude ones religious beliefs?

This is just for starters. Any information you can give me on any of these subjects would be greatly appreciated. I want to believe that Freemasons or good people, and stand up for just causes. Please don't give me links to read, I want to here your opinions on these. Where does Masonry as a whole stand on these issues?

Thank you for your time and consideration,
Tom Sawyer




posted on May, 11 2004 @ 07:07 PM
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Whoa boy Tom Sawyer, the proverbial can of worms you have opened on this fishing trip! Neil Peart would be proud of you today's Tom Sawyer. Lets go in order:

1. Masonic legend as taught in lodge originates from the region including The Mountains of Zion and centers on the construction of King Solomon's Temple. This however does not create a unified Masonic political/religious stand, it is a personal choice, what you believe before you become a mason will probably believe afterwards. The craft does not dictate political or religious viewpoints.

2. This is a personal choice, however the ranks of Masonry is a little heavy on law enforcement and military; you do agree to be a law abiding citizen as a tenet of your membership. Libertarian thought process takes over from there... take that with a grain of salt.

3. Politics are out! No way, no how, but we'd rather have a Brother (which Bush & Kerry aren't) in the Whitehouse than a Skull & Bones (both are Yalies).

4. Never had a cavity in my life, and I'm about as big a capitalist as you could meet.

5. Definitely pro depleted uranium, especially in these wonderful increments: 20mm, 25mm, and 30mm. Preferably after they have perforated some tape making, AK-47 wielding, goat loving, extremist piece of %@*$#*&^%@@%$^T^%%^%#@#$^ who thinks he' got any chance of toppling the good ol' U.S. of A. Oooops, sorry wrong thread for this.

(By the way, what do last two questions mean anyways?)
Onward!

6. Religion, off limits, you affirm that you believe in a supreme being and we move on. Your immortal soul, your call.

7.Not as a unified charity. The majority of Masonic charity is at a local level, helping your own community. If this is a priority for you; you make efforts towards helping in this area. The flip side of Masonic charity are the Shriner's Hospitals, about as big and single-minded a philanthropy (Worlds Greatest) as you can find.

8. Trick question, are you talking about sacrificing human beings or including the word "God" in the Pledge of Allegiance?

Hope this was of some help.


[Edited on 11-5-2004 by Mirthful Me]



posted on May, 11 2004 @ 07:41 PM
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Just to chip in, I have answered questions from non-Masons at ATS before about Freemasonry.

There has been a glut of them. There is a wealth of info already at this site for people to form opinions about the Craft and what are the reasonable sources of further info.

Most of the questions asked by TomSawyer could only be answered by individuals, and have not much to do with Freemasonry at all - as Mirthful Me has indicated for himself.



posted on May, 11 2004 @ 07:59 PM
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Originally posted by TomSawyer
I would like to ask Freemasons on the board a few questions if I may.

1) Are Freemasons anti or pro Zionist?



No.



2) Are they for legalizing Marijuana?


Some are. Some are not. Freemasonry has nothing to do with Marijuana.



3) Would they rather have Bush or Kerry as president?


Depends on which one you're talking about. I'm Canadian, so my opinion in the matter should have little weight (it's your nation, run it how you see fit as long as you're nice to your own people and don't interfere with other nations).



4) Are they anti Fluoridation?


Depends on the Mason. I know I like my shiny healthy teeth. Other Masons may prefer rotten, yellow teeth. This is an issue best left to one's own conscience.



5) Are they anti Depleted Uranium?


Depends on the Mason. I wouldn't like to be shot, myself, and I can't really think of anyone else who I think should be shot, but that is entirely my opinion, based on my religious faith.



6) Do they believe in one or many Gods?


Depends on the Mason and the jurisdiction. Some jurisdictions require an individual to be a monotheist before they can become a Mason. Others (such as mine) do not.



7) Do they help veterans with Gulf War Syndrom?


Help them to do what? If a Mason sees a sick individual, and has the ability to help that individual, then (in my mind) that Mason is required by his own conscience to help that individual. Obviously situations may alter this. No Mason is bound by my opinions, anyway.



8) Does the rule of law preclude ones religious beliefs?


I personally don't think it ever should. People should have the right to whatever religious beliefs they wish. I believe that's in your American Constitution (a document written largely by Masons, I should note), and it's in my Country's Charter of Rights and Freedoms. If your religious beliefs cause you do to something immoral (such as, as the erudite and wise MM has noted, killing children), then in my opinion as an individual and citizen those beliefs are wrong.



This is just for starters. Any information you can give me on any of these subjects would be greatly appreciated. I want to believe that Freemasons or good people, and stand up for just causes.


If you want to believe that, and there is lots and lots of evidence to back up that belief, why don't you just go ahead and believe it? I'm not sure why you're relying on other people to help you believe in something you already want to believe... unless, of course, you're being coy and don't really want to believe nice things about Freemasonry at all. I can't say I'd be pleased with that. But I can't believe that's true... I want to believe that you are being genuine.



Please don't give me links to read, I want to here your opinions on these. Where does Masonry as a whole stand on these issues?


Masonry as a whole can stand no-where except where its rituals place it: in a Lodge of Masons, each of whom has complete freedom of thought, each of whom feels that the order is helping him to be a better man (or her to be a better woman, if you're being inclusive).

As an illustration, as you may have guessed from my above remarks, I feel that woman should be allowed to become Masons (in separate lodges, however). This opinion is contrary to the practice of recognised Masonry worldwide. Almost every Mason who knows me knows I feel this way. Almost every Mason who knows me knows that if I can find a way to do it without subverting our traditions and the stability of our order, I will. Yet there has never been any reprecussion for my feelings on this issue. Why? Because Masonry, if it teaches anything, teaches the individuals absolute right to freedom of thought.



Thank you for your time and consideration,
Tom Sawyer


You're quite welcome.



posted on May, 11 2004 @ 09:30 PM
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Mirthful Me,
Thank you for your response. I would hope that Neil would be proud! :-) I am interested in all of this, because I suspect my father is/was a Mason. I was disowned by my family basically, and treated like a foster kid growing up. My father was a minister, which has really messed with my head. So I am trying to figure out why. We have alot of family secrets, that don't want to be discussed. So I am here.

1. Masonic legend as taught in lodge originates from the region including The Mountains of Zion and centers on the construction of King Solomon's Temple. This however does not create a unified Masonic political/religious stand, it is a personal choice, what you believe before you become a mason will probably believe afterwards. The craft does not dictate political or religious viewpoints.

How does that work? My understanding of the craft, is that it doesn't matter what religion you follow. You just have to believe in a higher power. I am assuming from the legend, that you probably have Zionists as members. Do you also have Muslim extreemists, that believe in the subjugation of Jews? Please don't take offence, I mean no disrepect. Masons don't discriminate against religions, so I am assuming you have Muslim members. How do you know if they are sleepers or not?

2. This is a personal choice, however the ranks of Masonry is a little heavy on law enforcement and military; you do agree to be a law abiding citizen as a tenet of your membership. Libertarian thought process takes over from there... take that with a grain of salt.

So if someone lived in the Netherlands, and they were a Mason. They could use Marijuana, and the Masons wouldn't have any problems with that? I guess what I am getting at, is do they have a problem with the drug itself, or just that it's against the law to use it?

3. Politics are out! No way, no how, but we'd rather have a Brother (which Bush & Kerry aren't) in the Whitehouse than a Skull & Bones (both are Yalies).

Are "Yalies" not liked because of money status, or what?

4. Never had a cavity in my life, and I'm about as big a capitalist as you could meet.
Would the majority of Masons consider themselves Capitalists?

I've had probably 8 cavities when I was little. I grew up in Co. Springs, the first city in the US to add Fluoride to their water. Wasn't allowed to eat sweets and drink pop growing up either. Brushed, flossed, even used a Fluoride gel. Does it bother you that there is no way to regulate, how much Fluoride you have in your diet on a daily basis? Are you aware that toothpaste containers have warnings on them, that state if swallowed, seek imediate medical help? Does that make sense to you? My brother says "people in the know, know this. That's why they drink bottled water." So:
1) Why isn't the general public being warned by the people in the know.
2) Why isn't anything being done to get it out of our drinking water?
3) The Masons are known for all of their charity, that's what they are about is trying to help people. So why don't the Masons care about this issue?

There have been several contries that have banned Fluoride in their water. There are countless medical reports on what Fluoride does to the human body. The joints, the bones, brain chemistry, tooth Fluoridation (white spots), ect.. They even suspect now, that it is causing the huge increase in ADD in children, among other things. It prohibits the flow of Melatonin in the brain, which the brain needs to be able to concentrate. That's why it's linked to ADD. Do Masons not believe the evidence?

5. Definitely pro depleted uranium, especially in these wonderful increments: 20mm, 25mm, and 30mm. Preferably after they have perforated some tape making, AK-47 wielding, goat loving, extremist piece of %@*$#*&^%@@%$^T^%%^%#@#$^ who thinks he' got any chance of toppling the good ol' U.S. of A. Oooops, sorry wrong thread for this.
Enough said.

(By the way, what do last two questions mean anyways?)
Onward!
Depleted Uranium is one of the suspected causes of Gulf War Syndrum. That and the shot series they recieved. So I was wondering if it bothers Masons that it is having these negative effects with contamination? Do they believe it is linked to birth defects etc., in Iraq after the first Gulf War?

6. Religion, off limits, you affirm that you believe in a supreme being and we move on. Your immortal soul, your call.

7.Not as a unified charity. The majority of Masonic charity is at a local level, helping your own community. If this is a priority for you; you make efforts towards helping in this area. The flip side of Masonic charity are the Shriner's Hospitals, about as big and single-minded a philanthropy (Worlds Greatest) as you can find.

Understood, pretty straight forward.

8. Trick question, are you talking about sacrificing human beings or including the word "god in the Pledge of Allegiance?

No trick here. This goes back to the Marijuana issue, among other things. From my understanding Masons want to be free from government regulations etc.. So my curriosity is, I am assuming you have Jewish, Muslim, and Christian members. All of these religions have the first five books of the Bible in common. Genesis 1:29 states And God said, behold for I have given you every seed bearing herb of all of the lands..... and all of these things I have given unto you, to be as to meat. The law says that Marijuana is illegal. Any Christian or Muslim, or Jew, or American Indian for that matter, could say that this goes dirrectly against their spiritual beliefs. Masons also say that they will never infringe on you spiritual beliefs. The only way you can be kicked out from my understanding, is not paying your dues, or breaking the Mason morals/rules etc.. So their seems to be a contradiction to me? What takes president the persons spiritual beliefs, or following the Mason morals. If it is breaking Mason morals, are the Masons for Marijuana legalization, so the morals don't infringe on the persons spiritual beliefs?
What if a member said Fluoride has been medically proven to hamper the flow of Melatonin in my brain, making it so I can't concentrate. I use Marijuana, because it has been proven in a medical study to increase the production of Melatonin. So I am using it for medical reasons. What wins out, the Mason being healthy, or following Mason morals?

Hope this was of some help.
It was, and I really appreciate you time and consideration.



posted on May, 12 2004 @ 02:18 AM
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I would like to ask Freemasons on the board a few questions if I may.

1) Are Freemasons anti or pro Zionist? Ok, in Masonry, you only have to believe in a Supreme Being. That is where the line ends..... We do not discuss religion or Politics in the lodge. We are Brethern seeking harmony and fellowship with one another. Religion and Politics are two of the bggest things that cause problems between people. Religion and Politics stay strictly at home. Therefore, each is free to believe in what they believe. We do have Muslims in masonry... We believe in following the law of the land, we believe in caring about others and helping out where we can in this world. That is it.... A terrorist would not believe in Masonry as it goes against the fundamentals. Basically, Religion and Politics are personal and not forced on anyone.

2) Are they for legalizing Marijuana? We follow the rules of the country we live in. We do not make up the rules.

3) Would they rather have Bush or Kerry as president? We never talk about Religion or Politics in lodge. No way NEVER..... as said before .... They are the two things that cause problems between people. We are seeking harmony between all members... we are all brethern. We leave those thoughts at home.

4) Are they anti Fluoridation? depends on the person....

5) Are they anti Depleted Uranium? depends on the person....

6) Do they believe in one or many Gods? We believe in a supreme being. The rest is personal to the individual. We do not ask or talk about. As said before ... We do not talk yada yada yada yada

7) Do they help veterans with Gulf War Syndrom? Mirthful Me sated this quite well.

8) Does the rule of law preclude ones religious beliefs? Who said we want to be free from the government regulations??? We agree to follow those rules. Masonry does not make up any of the laws and we agree to follow the rule of law. This is a big misconcenption. Now, going to your religion question... Masonry ethics and morals do not infringe upon any religous right really. If they do in someway, then that person would have to decide for themselves if they wish to be a part of the organization. Now, the drug use you just brought up ... No, wait.. an easier way to say is just :

We are not a babysitting organization or a pre-school. The things you have brought up in here are for the govt or an individual to decide. Not babysitting every member and telling him how to run his life. We are adults, we all have our own ideas, basic morals, beliefs, prejudises, joy, sadness etc etc...... and the list goes on. It is not up to us to tell each other how to live our lives or what to think, there is no big brother. We know in our hearts how we have to act.. and we value or morals, ethics, virtues, and honor, we stick to that.

If you seriously want to know more about masons, I suggest you go to your local lodge.



posted on May, 12 2004 @ 04:10 AM
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Basically, there is no straight answer to every one of those questions.
Apart from question 7, every one of them is down to personal choice.



posted on May, 12 2004 @ 08:32 AM
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I have to admit the can of worms is mighty big; lets try to dig through and find the Mlange. First JCM is correct, Masonry (and most fraternal organizations) are not babysitters, or designed to provide cookie cutter mindsetters to the masses, we have cults to do that! Second are you searching for something that will fit your personal situation, and allow you to wrap yourself in the warm fuzzy feeling of belonging (and this group I belong to says everything I do is O.K.)? Freemasonry is definitely not for you. I could produce a collective diatribe on the host of issues brought forth, Zionism, fluoridation (Images from Dr. Strangelove dancing in my head...OPBF), depleted uranium, illegal drug use; but why? I know where I stand on these issues, and none of my convictions are borne of Freemasonry. You have asked for black or white answers to the questions swirling in your life and the lives of many, there are none; any group that tried to tell me there was would cause me to pause... then run like hell the other way! An introspective journey you must take, before a Mason you can be. (Yoda stopped by and gave me that line).

Good Luck

[Edited on 12-5-2004 by Mirthful Me]



posted on May, 12 2004 @ 11:12 AM
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Mirthful me, Leveller, JCMinJapan, Alex Kenedy, and Masked Avatar,

Thank you for all for your responses. I appreciate you all taking your time to try and help me out, on this journey. You answers have helped me to understand your organization better. Thank you.

I have been trying to piece this puzzle together for a long time. With all of the strange things I experienced growing up, for a while I was convinced that my Dad and Mom were part of a cult. At the time I just figured it had something to do with Oral Roberts. But the more I researched it, more links to Freemasons kept coming up. So I wanted to know if the things I experienced were part of Freemasonry teachings or what.

I am going at this with an open mind, I'm not convinced of anything. So I am not here to judge Freemasons as a whole. I am here to understand them. My thought process was, my Dad won't talk about any of this. So maybe if I get to understand Masons, I will be able to understand my Dad and how he thinks better.

The reason I was led to Freemasons, is because of all of the links to your organization that kept coming up. It wasn't because I have any prejudice towards your organization. So let me switch gears here a little bit, and tell you all of the things I found in my search. I would appreciate any of your opinions, as to what you think is going on here.

Like I stated before, I grew up in Colorado Springs. From my understanding, Co. Springs is a headquarters for the Masons. It is also were alot of religious organizations have their headquarters. As well as where Pike's Peak is located. Also as mentioned before, it was the first city to add Fluoride to their water. My parents helped Congressman Hefley get elected.

Growing up, my parents liked to play alot of mind games. For instance, on my birthday I got a bike. The bike was too big for me to ride. So my Dad asked me if I would be willing to trade my older brother bikes, until I was big enough to ride it. I agreed, but when I was big enough to ride it. My Dad said sorry, you traded with your brother, it's his bike now.

We had a rabbit that just disappeared overnight shortly after we had gotten it. Wouldn't have thought anything of it, except that a family friend had tons of rabbits. One night, we went to their house to eat. When we asked what we were having for dinner, we were told rabbit pizza. A while later I caught my brother in the basement shooting arrows at a target. When I asked him what he was doing. He said he was running away from home, and was going to live off of rabbits. He was probably 7 years old at the time.

Then a collie that disappeared, overnight. Woke up the next morning, and it was gone. It wasn't burried, and the Vets weren't open. Through research I found that this was a cult practice. To have their children kill increasingly larger animals, to condition them for killing. With my brother saying he was going to hunt rabbits, I wouldn't be surprised if that is what was going on.

I was told by my grandparents, that my Dad had told them. While he was in college, he had hypnotized my Mom, and programed her. My Dad at the time was a member of a Greek Frat in Illinois. My Mom does act as though she is programed. One day she will say one thing, and the next it was the opposite. I also walked in on my Dad hypnotizing my brother. So he tried to hypnotize me. I remember him getting really upset, because no matter what object he tried, it wouldn't work. My grandparents believe their daughter (My Mom) is brainwashed.

Then my Dad was called by God, to go to Oral Roberts University. He later became a hospital chaplin at the City of Faith Hospital. While there, his mentors last name was Pike. Through my research, I have concluded Oral Roberts is a Mason. From all of the symbolism in his building on campus, and the City of Faith. The address for ORU is 7777, and when the City of Faith was completed it was to have 777 beds. I also found that Mr. Pike is a decendent of Albert Pike, and Zebulon Pike. (there are more links, just thought this would sufice.)

When I was in high school, my dad one day after a disagreement said "I don't love you anymore." I was pissed, so I trashed my bedroom, and left. I was pulled over by the police on the way to my girlfriends house. They took me to the City of Faith, at my Dads request. I was put into the psychiatric ward there. They performed CAT scans, MRI's you name it to find something wrong with me. They couldn't find anything. But while there, I had refused to talk to the staff, because I knew my Dad would have access to anything that I told them. So they said I was paranoid skitso whatever. (This was later dismissed by the top psychiatrist in Oklahoma at the time, so I could join the military.)

After I was let out of the hospital, my Dad came to appologize. Not for putiing me in the hospital, but for what he had said. He said "I talked to Mr. Pike about all of this, and Mr. Pike says that I crossed the line." Not that he was sorry, but that Mr. Pike told him it went to far. It came across as if he were programmed as well. (A few years later, after I had forgiven him. He told me "your my son by blood only".)

When I was around 7, I had a serious sledding accident. I borrowed someone elses sled to go down the mountain. I was to small to control the sled, and I went head first into a tree. I was never checked for brain damage or anything at the time. So I believe that that is why I had all of the tests done at the City of Faith.

My mother had a very hard time conceiving. My parents tried for a long time to have kids. Finally they gave up on it, and adopted my brother. I was born a year and a half later. My parents told me when I was around 6, that I was going to have a big impact on this world, when I got older. They never said why, and won't tell me why they thought that.

I think this ties into the cult as well. The only reason I can come up with, that they would tell me that. Is they knew about the Venus transit that is happening this year. From what I have read on the net, there are predictions on this date from the anti-Christ revealing himself, to the second coming of Christ. I think their belief came from my birthday being June 8th. Yes this is a guess, but it is all I can come up with. Not only was I born on June 8th, it will be my 35th birthday. Those into Numerology, which my father was, would make the link that 3+5=8. It is also going to be taking place in Gemini.

The reason it sticks in my head, is because of how I was treated growing up. I can't understand why you would tell someone they are going to have a big influence in the world, then treat them like a foster kid. My adopted brother was treated like the first born son. I was the mistake.

My guess is that that belief went out the window, after the sledding accident. I believe that after the accident, I did have brain damage. Because my thought processes changed. I was hit on the left side of my brain. Afterwards, I was very obviously right brained dominant. My thought processes work backwards. For instance when I was in first grade. We were being taught how to add and subtract. When the teacher was teaching us how to subtract, I asked her. Couldn't you just figure out what to add to the number that is being subtracted, to come up with the number on top, and find the answer. I didn't realize it until a couple of years ago, but I was basically doing Algebra in first grade, without being taught.

It also made me a talented musician. I could play virtually anything by ear. I taught myself how to play several instruments etc.. So while I am acceling in all of these areas, my parents were treating me, as if they never told me about the impact I would have in the future. It seemed that went out the window after the accident.

My father is also obsessed with Pikes Peak. He bought a house that had a view of the mountain. Then a few years later a neighbor built a jungle jim in their back yard. The jungle jim blocked probably the lower left quarter of the mountain. So my Dad sold the house, and bought another one, just to have a full view. He now lives below Pike Peak. If I didn't know better, I would think he actually worships the mountain.

Sorry for this book, I hope it wasn't too boring to read. I hope you can tell from what I have said here, that I am one messed up puppy! I'm just trying to find my way here, and understand why all of this took place. Like I said, I'm not prejudiced against Masons. I just want to understand if what happened was due to Masonic influences, or if my parents are part of a cult. The only reason I am even looking in your dirrection at all, is because of all of the links to Masons that have come up in my search for answers. If nothing else, through my understanding of Masons. Maybe I will be able to understand my father better. He's a very difficult man to communicate with.

Thank you for your time once again,
Tom



posted on May, 12 2004 @ 11:42 AM
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The Brothers above have given excellent answers, and I am not egoistic enough to think I could improve on them. However, I would like to state for the record that Oral Roberts is not a Mason; he is actually sort of an anti-Mason, and has preached against the fraternity The same could be said of Roberts' fellow "fringe" evangelists such as Jimmy Swaggart, Kenneth Copeland, and Pat Robertson, all of whom have denounced Freemasonry in the past.

Fiat Lvx.



posted on May, 13 2004 @ 02:59 PM
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Well, first of all, no mason speaks for all Masons, so the only answers that can be provided are on those respecting what each of us thinks.

You see, Masonry does teaches us how to live, not what politician to vote for, it teaches us to be better men, not how to approach g-d. What I can do is give you my answers to those questions, but with the caveat that Masonry does not answer them for us...

1) Are Freemasons anti or pro Zionist?

Masonry takes no stand on Zionism, whatever that means. I do not understand your question, so for myself, I have no answer. If you are asking if I support Israel's right to continued safe existence, I, for Theron, would have to say YES.

2) Are they for legalizing Marijuana?

This is a non issue for MASONRY. Individual Masons will have their own opinions.

3) Would they rather have Bush or Kerry as president?

Masonry takes no stand on political issues.

4) Are they anti Fluoridation?

Are you kidding? Masonry takes no stand on our water or flouride.

5) Are they anti Depleted Uranium?

Masonry takes no stand on this (by the way, why should anyone?)

6) Do they believe in one or many Gods?

Masonry takes no stand on g-d, other than a requirement that a brother have faith in g-d, however he knows Him. Masonry does not teach us how to appraoch g-d or to worship Him.

7) Do they help veterans with Gulf War Syndrom?

Masonry is not a charity, though we help people regardless of Gulf War Syndrome, Alheimers, etc.

8) Does the rule of law preclude ones religious beliefs?

The rule of what law? Masonry REQUIRES a belief in g-d as a prerequisite of membership.



posted on May, 13 2004 @ 04:11 PM
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Originally posted by TomSawyer

Sorry for this book, I hope it wasn't too boring to read. I hope you can tell from what I have said here, that I am one messed up puppy! I'm just trying to find my way here, and understand why all of this took place. Like I said, I'm not prejudiced against Masons. I just want to understand if what happened was due to Masonic influences, or if my parents are part of a cult. The only reason I am even looking in your dirrection at all, is because of all of the links to Masons that have come up in my search for answers. If nothing else, through my understanding of Masons. Maybe I will be able to understand my father better. He's a very difficult man to communicate with.



Dear Puppy,

I can safely say that Masonic influences have not ruined your life. I have never met your parents, but I tend to think that you have described a case of poor family interaction; an ailment that afflicts a good many of us in one degree or another. To lay blame at the feet of any organization, Masonry, a particular religion, or fluoridated water mask the issue at hand. Personal responsibility (A Masonic Tenet), thats the bottom line... how did I get here? Look down at your own two feet (thats how), this is your life, the how's and why's are connected to your actions, inactions, decisions and free will. You have indicated your father is alive (a luxury some of us don't have
), this being the case, it is possible for you to move forward (drop the victim crap) with these issues. You have the people who can give first hand evidence to these occurrences in your life, approach them and in some forum find the answers... their not here.

MM



posted on May, 13 2004 @ 05:51 PM
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You hsitory above sounds indeed sad. But, what has been heppened in no way sounds connected to Masonry. First, masonry is not a cult... no one is forced into masonry, anyone can leave masonry if they wish, we do not kill animals, people or anything. There are no mind games or anything else. Id to agree with Mirthful Me, but if you really believe that something has to do with the occult, then look down another path. Or better yet, you are 34 now, actually the same age as myself. If your father is alive, be an adult and talk directly with him to find out what were his thoughts when you were growing up, why Pikes Peak, ... etc etc etc.
This is just my idea .... Do not be a victim, what has happened in the past has happened. every second in you life is aother second that you have wasted letting the past get to you. But, every second is another opportunity to change yourself. It is all up to you. So, here is my thought... stop letting the past get to you from NOW. IF you want to investigate it more, then be direct and inquisitive with your dad. Maybe or maybe not things will get solved. But, either way... we only live around 80 years or so (well as far as can be proven), why waste this short amount of time on problems..... Enjoy the gift of life you have been given.



posted on May, 15 2004 @ 12:03 AM
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There seems to be a misconception here, as it was explained to me (because I ask questions). A lot seem to think that "do Masons believe in many gods" is answered by "depends on the Mason." But that is wrong.

A Mason can only believe in a "Supreme Being" not "Supreme Beings". I remember this because there was a big fuss a bit ago about whether or not Hindi should be allowed to be Masons or not (as they have some millions of gods.) But the final decision was that since all their gods are culminated into one being more or less "Brahman" (I think) that they could be made Masons.

I brought this up when I was trying to figure out if Wiccans could be made Masons, which the answer was pretty much no. (This is in regards to the what holy book is on the alter.)

Unless the Wiccan is willing to affirm to one Supreme Being which could be represented by many lesser beings or such, then they probably won't be allowed in.

This is worth discussion though...it's not absolute but I do believe the answers about this question given thus-far are not fully accurate.



posted on May, 15 2004 @ 12:10 AM
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Originally posted by FreeMason
There seems to be a misconception here, as it was explained to me (because I ask questions). A lot seem to think that "do Masons believe in many gods" is answered by "depends on the Mason." But that is wrong.

[deletia]



I agree with you that this is practically true (and you're quite right that Hinduism is valid... the Monotheism of Hinduism is very valid, because all gods are aspects of the universal, IMHO). But this is not a landmark, and I suspect there may be some jurisdictions out there where polytheism is admittable. I mean, honestly... would you keep out of your Lodge a Zoroastrian of the school that believes in coequal good and evil principles (although I don't think there are any Zoroastrians that believe this way anymore)? I would certainly admit a Wiccan who believed in a dual principle into my Lodge, although others might disagree (then again, I don't believe that our Grand Lodge has addressed this issue directly... I'm not sure, I haven't studies it, which is embarassing, since I'm on a Grand Lodge comittee on Science and Spirituality
)



posted on May, 15 2004 @ 05:23 AM
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From what I can see of 99% of religions that believe in duality, they believe that both aspects are in place in one God.
Hinduism may seem to be polytheism but it has one supreme god - Brahman. Basic Hindu isn't actually a lot different from Christianity when you look deep into it. It even contains a Trinity - Brahman, Vishnu and Shiva.

Brahman plays much the same role as the Christian god in that all other minor dieties are merely aspects of him.
I guess a comparison could be made with Jesus and his being part of the whole.

Hindus can definitely be made masons. I sit next to a brother in Lodge who is a Hindu here in the UK.



posted on May, 15 2004 @ 05:55 AM
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I have been under the impression for some time that the Masons were a religious organization of sorts (if granted a liberal one, considering that my father was a master mason, or so i'm told). Of course the idea that they are religious has been pretty well denounced here.

So what are the masons about? My understanding of their religious origins is pretty heavily tied in with a book which may or may not actually even entirely exist anymore (the book of enoch) and the story that Enoch was given special knowledge of various sciences from God which were put on columns to survive the flood, and later were incased in the columns of solomon's temple until it was destroyed. Hell of a run-on sentence, I know.

As for depleted uranium and gulf war vets... I may not know about the Masons but i know a thing or two about what you get for being too familiar with things that are intended to kill people. Gulf War Sydrome was basically the product of the Pyrdiostigmine Bromide packages our troops over-used due to bad instruction. We still use them, but they give us a slight warning not to overuse them now. The PB might have had some help from DU, bad vaccinations, and exposure to trace ammounts of organo-phosphates (Sarin).



posted on May, 15 2004 @ 08:21 AM
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Originally posted by The Vagabond
So what are the masons about?


I have posted this address a few times, not sure if you have seen it or not, but this is a good primer on Freemasonry. It is pretty much straight and to the point. I hope it helps.
www.geocities.com...



posted on May, 15 2004 @ 10:45 AM
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Originally posted by The Vagabond
So what are the masons about? My understanding of their religious origins is pretty heavily tied in with a book which may or may not actually even entirely exist anymore (the book of enoch) and the story that Enoch was given special knowledge of various sciences from God which were put on columns to survive the flood, and later were incased in the columns of solomon's temple until it was destroyed.


The legend of Enoch comes into play in the 13 and 14 of Scottish Rite Masonry. However, this is only legendary and allegory. It is not pretended by the Fraternity that the story of Enochs protection of the knowledge of mathematics is historically accurate; rather, the tale is figurative, and is used as a parable concerning the importance of discovering and retaining knowledge, which allows us to impart it to the generations which will succeed us.

As for Wicca, there are quite a few Wiccan Masons whom I've spoken with on various Masonic forums. Gerald Gardner, the founder of that religion, was a Mason.

Fiat Lvx.




[Edited on 15-5-2004 by Masonic Light]



posted on May, 15 2004 @ 01:20 PM
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Masonic Light,
You said that Oral Roberts isn't a Mason. That he is actually anti-Mason. Can you document this in any way? If he isn't a Mason, can you explain why he would use Masonic symbology in the University logo, and in the buildings on campus? Why he had such a fixation with 7? I would like to know how you know for a fact, that he is not a Mason? No offence, but there is too much evidence I have come across, to just take your word for it.

Theron Dunn,
Im am interested if Masons are pro-Zionists, because of all of the info I have found on Masonic websites. Protocols of Zion, Kabalah, Solomon's Temple, the Isreali Supreem Court, ect.. So it seems like they are pro-Zionist. My dad is pro-Zionist. So it was a possible connection to Masons. I have absolutely no problem with Jews, I do however have a problem with Zionism. I agree that they have a right to defend their land, and way of life. I do not think they have the right to continue to build upon their current borders, or to try and overthrow governments in the Middle East. I am for peace on all sides of the issue, not for agendas to overthrow eachother. I think both Jews, and Muslims are wrong in this effort.

Mirthful Me,
I agree that when I had the freedom of choice, I am responsible for my decisions. However, we are talking about decisions that were made by my father, the government, and military. I am not looking for sympathy here, and this is not victims crap as you put it. I want to understand why my Dad is the way he is. Wheither it be because of Masonic influences, or occult, or whatever it turns out to be. Period.

So please keep your judgments, and victims crap type statements to yourself. If you don't want to help me figure this out. Then simply stop posting on this thread. Please be productive, and not make this personal. I am not judging Masons, so I would appreciate it if you would refrain from passing judgements on me. You don't know me from Adam, so please quit acting like you do.

As far as finding out the answers from first hand sources. I have tried that for many years. I Pretty much get the same run around I am getting here with you. How much of a luxury is it really to have a father, that doesn't or hasn't ever wanted to be one? It isn't just me he has alienated. My mom and dad are divorced. He cut off my brother for a year. He doesn't have a relationship with his brother. He is full of hate and anger. I just want to understand why. It's that simple. If I could get these answers from him I would. I can't force him to talk.(Freewill) He is the one that refuses to talk to me, not the other way around.

JCMinJapan,
Thank you for your response. I am not trying to play the victim here. Everything that was stated was not to say "feel sorry for me". It was to show why I think he is being influenced by some outside source. That is it. I didn't want to come on here and say, I think my dad is part of a cult or whatever. Without giving any "proof" to back up my feelings about it. So I gave the history, to show why I think that way, not for sympathy.

Like I stated above to MM. I have tried for many years to discuss all of this with my father. He stonwalls every attempt. He can't discuss anything related to politics, religion, the past ect., without being vindictive. I am/have gotten on with my life. I hope you understand that this is my father. So it's only natural to want to understand him. If I could get the answers out of him, I would. It's not that I fear him or anything. I dispise how he treats everyone around him, as a "man of God". Why is it so hard to understand, that because of the fact that he is a "man of God". That I would want to understand, why he would treat everyone around him the way he does?
I am of the belief that the only time a person gets mad, angry, frusterated etc.. Is because they don't understand the why's. It is the not understanding the why's that makes you turn negative. That is why I want to understand. I may not agree with the answers that I find, but at least I will understand the reasoning behind them.

Here's a quote from my dad so maybe you all can understand. "Any psychiatrist worth their salt will tell you, there is no benefit to understanding/discussing the why's of why things happened". He doesn't want me to have this knowledge, and he refuses to discuss it. I would just write him off like he has done with me. But that wouldn't be the Christian thing to do. Being that it wouldn't be the Chrisitan thing to do, it is very hard to understand why he does/can. Refusing to discuss any of this, just raises my suspicion that he has something to hide. All of the conections that I have found in this quest, have raised my suspicions even further. I would love to just sit down, and discuss this like adults. I have tried many times.

Tom



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