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Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by helen670
Hi back to you Helen
Your response did not address the problem of gods plan in that a plan is a design/instruction.
In order for judas not to have turned jesusyahweh over there would have to be another plan making it so.
What you seem to be implying is that all possible outcomes have been created. All well and good and therefor precluding free will as all are planned/created/designed by the creator.
If however, your implying that another plan (plan B) is created in response to a choice being made (such as Judas) then this would imply that the creator was unaware of the outcome of the choice, which would preclude omniscience of god.
jesus did not make any sacrifice, why ?
Because he did not and could not die, if it claimed he died in human form then this must be the biggest blag of all time.
If jesus died in human form, what sacrifice was made ? He was alive again in three days and didn't fear anything. Everyone else had to suffer crucifixion (one would assume this included the 2 thieves either side of jesus) for the whole duration up to 10 days of torture, jesus seemed to have got off lightly in comparison.
By definition a sacrifice implies the permanent loss of something by the holder, jesusyawhew lost nothing so no sacrifice was made.
Now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that slept. 1 Cor. xv. 20.
By one man sin entered into the world,
and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. Rom. v. 12.
God the Father is neither begotten,
nor proceeds from any other Person: the Son of God is from all eternity begotten of the Father: the Holy Ghost from all eternity proceeds from the Father.
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. 1 Cor. xv. 44. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1 Cor. xv. 53.
Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by A Fortiori
That's interesting isn't it, now I've met quite a few non believers who have followed the bibles instructions on contacting jesus I've even done so myself. Nope, no appearance at all, not even a little whisper.
Interestingly enough, there was a poster on ATS recently who is an xtian but had actually quit because jesus didn't appear to him especially at a real bad time of his life.
It would be fair to say that most xtians claim that jesus appeared to them, but upon further inquiry it ofte turns out that- "Well he spoke to me in spirit " or "He gave me a sign" or "he speaks to me through the word" etc. He appears to the converted, this woman didn't need him to appear she was already an xtian.
One would have thought that if jesus needed to get the message across about hell so dramatically, then he would have shown up at my house and whisked me off to hell for a visit.
Ahhhh your gourmet food is making me hungry, would sure make a change from burgers and spag bol lol. next time your around my way please feel free to drop in and show me how its' done properly.
Would you not do these highly commendable things if you were not a christian ?
Same as Jesus. That Moses, not God, gave them the laws because of the "hardness of their hearts." As to homosexuals God loves them just as they are.
What is your position on your Yahweh jesus gods' view on, eating blood or being a homosexual, teaching little children that a man lived inside a fish, that slaves should be beaten till their almost dead, or that if your new wife is not a virgin then she should be killed ?
Don't you find it strange, that jesus doesn't pop in to visit atheists and whisk them off to see, what he created for them should they not comply ?
The same thing about God...How are you to know of God if you have no faith to begin with? How are you to know of what or who He is , if you have no prior knowledge?
Is it PRIDE that leads one to believe that there is NO God?
What can one lose that would be so great?
People tend to blame God or others when they experience hurt or sufferings,why is that? Why blame God if people want WARS?
Even people who do not believe in a God or other gods have an inbuilt desire to WORSHIP or be worshipped themselves!
An immortal being cannot lose its' life so for said being to claim that it sacrificed it's life is a lie.
So clearly no one sacrificed their life.
You also hint at jesus somehow making a sacrifice by suffering the pain of crucifixion. This just doesn't wash when if it actually occurred he was spared the full horror of a lengthy drawn out execution.
You somehow try to make Isaiah the answer for both these conundrums which it certainly doesn't.
The Isaiah 53’s author, a mainstream Jew, relates the life story of a certain person who quickly rose to prominence on rumors that he was the Messiah. Instead of uniting the nation, however, he soon fell into the common sin of starting a sect of one’s own outside normative Judaism and disseminating this teaching. God—who, in the Isaiah author’s view, favored Judean unity and thus desired orthodoxy and opposed sects and sectarianism—suppressed him.
The people also rejected that person’s odd teaching, and he was executed for violating the law, a consequence of the fact that his interpretation of the law and theirs were different. Disapproving of him overall, but also respecting some aspects of his personality and career, the author of Isaiah 53 suggests that had the man repented of his delusions, he would have become and remained an important figure in Jewish society.
The process by which the Isaiah 53, which describes current events, was taken by later generations as prophecy, is reminiscent of another famous piece of Isaiah, his prophecy of the savior Emmanu El to be born to King Ahaz, which prediction did not come true, and so was taken by posterity as referring to events to come in a distant future.
Ancient authors spoke to their contemporaries about current events, hardly expecting an audience distanced by millennia. Many details are omitted, therefore, simply because the intended audience knew them well. Those details are often impossible for us to reconstruct
If God is within us all- why is it not a personal experience?
Hell is probably the equivalent of the fear mechanism in modern day society as: the war on Terror.
I am sure that will be uncomfortable for many???
Yes, I find it quite strange. What's so special about that woman? Or any one else? Any why should we listen to them?
It may be a part of an agenda that they are unaware of.
Hell is a throw-back concept from the middle-ages when religion and politics were so incorporated, it was difficulty to see any distinction between the two. Hell is probably the equivalent of the fear mechanism in modern day society as: the war on Terror. I am sure that will be uncomfortable for many???
Yes He did....He lost His life...He was the END of all SACRIFICES that going on! No more Sacrices that were going on in the temples!
He was God in the Flesh...He felt pain and suffering as humans do.
Adam was the first man. Jesus Christ becomes the Second Adam...I explained this!
Exactly! Was this not prophesied it would happen?
Otherwise, we are only getting in each others bad books.
The Three days symbolizes the Trinityand alsomany other
symbolic references that are in the Torah refering to the Messiah. So, for me to explain and for you to understand, we must be both in communication...how can that be,if we both have two seperate Beliefs of understanding?
If they do, then THEY themselves go against the teachings of what was first taught...
..NEVER do elders or priests control someone with fear....they have no right to do this!
they cannot make up rules based on their own.
They are held responsible for what they say, if their teachings are heretical to the teachings of the Apostles.
If we all understood Hebrew and Aramaic then we could certainly make more qualified opinions for ourselves.