Originally posted by JayinAR
I don't buy the Church's spin on the Biblical story.
I have a question to ask of any believer. If God is all powerful why would he knowingly create a being that was going to eventually turn against him, deceive his creation into following him in his treason and eventually punish the people for buying into what was, for all intents and purposes, a 'Godly Mistake'?
That is why I turned away from the Church many years ago. As a *child* I was able to see through this gaping hole of logic, but the reason I would side with the Serpent is because he actually argued for freedom.
God forbode man of eating from the tree of knowledge. I'm curious if the believers out there have considered that. Where would man be without knowledge?
God said that to eat from that tree man would become just like He. Have believers considered that?
He made us in his image apparently, but he couldn't handle having a creation that shared intellect. He wanted slaves.
Give me knowledge and freedom!

I see some gaping holes in you logic. You might want to consider revising your stance. Although I see quite a few people fall into this line of thinking.

Why create a being that you know will turn against you? God created a being that can make the decision as to love Him or not. On its own free will. It chose to become prideful and become everything opposite of what God is. Did God know that would happen? Yes. It is part of a much bigger plan.

Why not create a being that doesn't turn against you? Your creation would be limited. It would be like having a robot instead of a real image of you. It would know nothing else but you. It certainly wouldn't be free and wouldn't have too much knowledge. Is that fair? No.

God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Not the tree of just knowledge. He gave them their own mind too. To make their own decisions. Remember at this point they only knew what God told them and obeyed Him. They enjoyed a perfect relationship with God. Then Satan came and told them that they didn't have to listen to Him. They listened to the Devil and willingly disobeyed God. Did God know that would happen? Yes. It is part of a much bigger plan.

God told them that the day they eat of it they would surely die. Did they die physically? No. They died spiritually. God then made them coats of animal skins. This was the first sin offering in keeping with His own later texts. In later texts we find that the wages of sin are death. The sin offering is used in place of the person. There was no death in the Garden up until this point.

Still want to side with the serpent so you could be free? Better think again.

I'd like to address one point first.

The "Serpent" didn't offer anything, all it did was tempt Eve into tasting the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Up to that point Adam and Eve had lived in perfect harmony with thier surroundings. They didn't want for anything, didn't get sick, didn't feel pain, didn't suffer in any way. They also didn't know Joy and wheren't able to have and raise children, up to that point they exsisted in pure innocence.

So, why did they have to do something wrong in order to progress? "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." The Fall of Adam was one of the main points of our history, just as the Ressurection of Christ was the center point of all events, the Greatest act ever committed. It wouln't have been needed if Adam and Eve had never eaten the fruit. We all wouldn't have exsisted and never lived the lives we have if it wasn't for them breaking a law.

This then brings me to another point you've made. Why would God create us if he knew exactly what we are going to do, there by negating our free will.

God surely does know what we are going to do before we do it. But we don't. Think about that, what would be the point in us living and making choices if they where all layed out infront of us. This is why we are not commanded in all things, given every little detail of our lives. We're supposed to live them! If we choose to obey the Laws of God or not, it's our own choice.

Which brings me to another of your points. Why does God punish us? That is a misconception. God himself doesn't punish us. He has mearly set out rules that have consiquences if broken. Think of it as causality, every action has a reaction. Our choosing to disreguard the Laws of God moves us away from him. That is the definition of Hell, being removed from the presence of God because when a person has a full realisation of thier sins, when they have a perfect knowledge of thier Life, how they've lived it and wasted it, that is Hell. That is the wailing and ganshing of teeth.

In the end, it all comes down to how you view what's been written. I know people will disagree with what I've said. If people didn't they wouldn't be human after all! And that's what we've all been given, the ability to be different, to mould our own life. The "Serpent" wanted us all to be "Perfect" to follow orders exactly as given, to be kept safe from harm, but to never experiance Life in all it's myriad colours and flavours.

Freedom is making the choice, even if it's the wrong one. That's what we've all fought for.

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by JayinAR
If God is all powerful why would he knowingly create a being that was going to eventually turn against him, deceive his creation into following him in his treason and eventually punish the people for buying into what was, for all intents and purposes, a 'Godly Mistake'?

so god was mistaken to make free moral agents who possess free will?

Free moral agents who possess free will?

Does a murderer's free will to kill has more priority over the victims free will to live? Are you saying that the people that boarded the planes on 9/11 chose to get on those planes?

One group has advanced knowledge of what is about to happen and the other does not. How is the latter "free" to act in any meaningful way?


And saying that god's will overrides his "free" moral agent's "free" will because god knows best, is like saying that the slave is free as long as he doesn't try to escape. Total nonsense.



[edit on 9-8-2009 by tungus]

This reminds me of a chat I had with an old indigenous Australian who was brought up on a Christian Mission.

He said that he knew from a young age that Adam and eve were 'whitefellas' because if Adam and Eve had been 'blackfellas' they'd have eaten the snake first, then had the apple for dessert.

I'll base my response on what I know of the Sumerian Tablets relating to the genesis of mankind, which is the original form albeit heavily edited into what we now call Genesis in the Old Testament.

In the tablets we are told that Enki and his sister Ninhursag (Isis) were given the task of creating the worker from Homo Erectus and Anunnaki DNA. Enki we are told loved his creations, both Homo Sapiens, and, Homo Sapiens Sapiens.. us, modern man.

His brother Enlil on the other hand hated us with a vengeance, after all he was a very jealous son. Why? Because he was the second son although he was born to his father's wife, whereas Enki was born to a Mistress and was the very first son born to Anu... which established him in preference to his brother according to the old patriarchal ways.

Because of this hatred of Enki's creations and of Enki himself, Enlil searched for anything he could use against his brother, so when we reach the tale of the flood we find that Enki was ordered by the Council of 12 not to tell a human of what was about to occur on the planet.

Enki loved us too much to for that. So he had Utnapishtim (Noah) sit behind a reed screen as Enki told his woes to the wall. Pretty clever huh? Of course, once the flooding had subsided and the Anunnaki returned to the planet due to starvation, they found Enki had caused some of the humans to remain alive. This angered Enlil beyond any reason.

He then spent every waking moment voicing the fact of Enki's crime to the Council, which eventually had him placed above Enki and given the territorial governance in this place. But this was not enough for Enlil, his hatred was so strong that he insured his brother Enki would be viewed by all generations of humans as the Evil son.

This was done by concocting the stories about the Serpent (Enki).. the snake was used as symbol for the house of life.. the Caduceus as we know it today... so by using the snake/serpent symbolism he was referring to his brother Enki.

Thousands of years pass and we do view Enki as the Evil one, based solely on the Garden of Eden fable as created for us by his brother Enlil.

So, in essence, the snake of Eden was not Satan, it was the one who loved us, who wanted us to know our heritage and power. Yet those who were opposed to such things, to keep humanity in it's rightful place as slave have fostered this untruth now for far too long.

The line of, "They have become as gods" refers more to us learning how to procreate and become more self-directed, which to any slave-owning society would be seen as a terrible thing and something that needed to be put a stop to.

[edit on 9-8-2009 by Tayesin]

I still think some posters are missing Jay's point alltogether. At any rate, if you take the stance that God is not omnipotant - at least in the classical way, and it totally opens these questions wide up. Process Theology holds that because God is not classically omnipotant, he/it travels time in some what the same manner we do. However, because his perspective is so much greater than ours, he can see the potentialities resultant from their creation - like standing ontop of a moving train i.e. time. If you take this stance, then creation would be - in the most litteral of terms, an experiement that he is observing - at all times, presently. My question - then, considering the validity of this theology is this: Will God ever get off the train?

What up Arkansas?
WS

Originally posted by JayinAR
God forbode man of eating from the tree of knowledge. I'm curious if the believers out there have considered that. Where would man be without knowledge? God said that to eat from that tree man would become just like He. Have believers considered that?

Adam and Eve lived with God in the Garden of Eden. They had a supernatural relationship with God. That is what God wants with all of us. He wants a relationship with us. However, Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the tree. Did they become like God? No. Disobeying God by eating the fruit caused all of mankind to be separated from God. Satan deceived Eve into thinking that she could be like God. Satan is still trying to deceive us into thinking that we can be like God. For example, most religions such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Paganism, Kabala, Scientology, etc. teach the divinity of self. They teach us to set ourselves up as holier than God. Afterall, that is what Satan did. If you follow after Satan then God will grant you your wish and let you be with Satan forever. Your decision, not His. You decide who you want to be with for eternity. If you follow the words of Satan though then you will be separated from God just like Adam and Eve were.

2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him. 2 Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us. 3 Don’t be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed—the one who brings destruction. 4 He will exalt himself and defy everything that people call god and every object of worship. He will even sit in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God. 5 Don’t you remember that I told you about all this when I was with you? 6 And you know what is holding him back, for he can be revealed only when his time comes. 7 For this lawlessness is already at work secretly, and it will remain secret until the one who is holding it back steps out of the way. 8 Then the man of lawlessness will be revealed, but the Lord Jesus will kill him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by the splendor of his coming. 9 This man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles. 10 He will use every kind of evil deception to fool those on their way to destruction, because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them. 11 So God will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies. 12 Then they will be condemned for enjoying evil rather than believing the truth.

Who do you want to be with? Do you want to follow after lawlessness? Satan denied God's law not to eat the fruit. Jesus said that Satan is a liar though.

John 8
44 For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Satan is lawless. Satan wanted Eve to break God's laws. Satan wants you to break God's laws too. Or would you rather follow the Lord Jesus Christ who's splendor will eradicate lawlessness? You decide.

Colossians 1
15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.
He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,
16 for through him God created everything
in the heavenly realms and on earth.
He made the things we can see
and the things we can’t see—
such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world.
Everything was created through him and for him.
17 He existed before anything else,
and he holds all creation together.
18 Christ is also the head of the church,
which is his body.
He is the beginning,
supreme over all who rise from the dead.
So he is first in everything.
19 For God in all his fullness
was pleased to live in Christ,
20 and through him God reconciled
everything to himself.
He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth
by means of Christ’s blood on the cross.

Romans 8:16-17
"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God; and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Hebrews 2
Jesus, the Man
5 And furthermore, it is not angels who will control the future world we are talking about. 6 For in one place the Scriptures say,
“What are mere mortals that you should think about them,
or a son of man that you should care for him?
7 Yet you made them only a little lower than the angels
and crowned them with glory and honor.
8 You gave them authority over all things.”
Now when it says “all things,” it means nothing is left out. But we have not yet seen all things put under their authority. 9 What we do see is Jesus, who was given a position “a little lower than the angels”; and because he suffered death for us, he is now “crowned with glory and honor.” Yes, by God’s grace, Jesus tasted death for everyone. 10 God, for whom and through whom everything was made, chose to bring many children into glory. And it was only right that he should make Jesus, through his suffering, a perfect leader, fit to bring them into their salvation.
11 So now Jesus and the ones he makes holy have the same Father. That is why Jesus is not ashamed to call them his brothers and sisters. 12 For he said to God,
“I will proclaim your name to my brothers and sisters.
I will praise you among your assembled people.”
13 He also said,
“I will put my trust in him,”
that is, “I and the children God has given me.”
14 Because God’s children are human beings—made of flesh and blood—the Son also became flesh and blood. For only as a human being could he die, and only by dying could he break the power of the devil, who had the power of death. 15 Only in this way could he set free all who have lived their lives as slaves to the fear of dying.
16 We also know that the Son did not come to help angels; he came to help the descendants of Abraham. 17 Therefore, it was necessary for him to be made in every respect like us, his brothers and sisters, so that he could be our merciful and faithful High Priest before God. Then he could offer a sacrifice that would take away the sins of the people. 18 Since he himself has gone through suffering and testing, he is able to help us when we are being tested.

Originally posted by Tayesin
I'll base my response on what I know of the Sumerian Tablets relating to the genesis of mankind, which is the original form albeit heavily edited into what we now call Genesis in the Old Testament.

I tend to give this version more credit than 'Genesis' in our current Bible as well. Because of that, I would also lean more toward the 'serpent' as well, if the endtimes prophecies come to be... in some tangible way... I know there are those who will say they are already coming to pass...

Realistically though, if something crazy and endtimesy happens... my instinct tells me to watch what the fundamentalist christians do, and do the opposite... because it seems the Bible has been twisted by the controllers of our society and I don't want to find out what 'they' have in store for those who buy it...

If it comes down to people dividing themselves into 2 groups and fighting each other, I will be as far away from civilization as possible. I'll try to avoid picking sides and killing other people, if I can help it.

Originally posted by JayinAR
I don't buy the Church's spin on the Biblical story.

I have a question to ask of any believer. If God is all powerful why would he knowingly create a being that was going to eventually turn against him, deceive his creation into following him in his treason and eventually punish the people for buying into what was, for all intents and purposes, a 'Godly Mistake'?

That is why I turned away from the Church many years ago. As a *child* I was able to see through this gaping hole of logic, but the reason I would side with the Serpent is because he actually argued for freedom.

God forbode man of eating from the tree of knowledge. I'm curious if the believers out there have considered that. Where would man be without knowledge?

God said that to eat from that tree man would become just like He. Have believers considered that?

He made us in his image apparently, but he couldn't handle having a creation that shared intellect. He wanted slaves.

Give me knowledge and freedom!

We probably have a different understanding as to what God is, but I'll give it a shot. First...it is not the Tree of Knowledge, it is the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Second, God permitted man to eat from ANY tree in the Garden, but prohibited eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. So, I think that man is free to do just about anything he wants. He is free to multiply his numbers and subdue the earth and be Master of it; all things I suspect would require various types of Knowledge...So you are quite incorrect in your interpretation, the God character from the Genesis story implies that the acquisition of Knowledge is something men would need to do to accomplish all these infinite number of permissible activities.

On to this Tree which is apparently the object of your obsession. What is Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Tree that it is the fruit of. This would begin an endless debate with one side insisting that it desirable and me insisting that it is the reason of your ruin.

I suspect that the specific fruit concerns knowledge that could be used to modify Gods creation; to change the natural order and implement some alternate reality, which is entirely perverse. It is perverse because it is subject to the Craftman's desire. If a Psychopath creates a world and then imposes it upon us why expect anything but War? That's what this place is and why there is war and why there will continue to be war until this behavior stops.

The most astounding event ever recorded in human history is easily the time the Sun Rose in the West; three days in a row. From what I can tell it happened at least Twice and is recorded as occuring in multiple locations in the ancient world. This is an example of the subject matter of that specific tree and when a person takes all other knowledge from the other trees in the Garden and integrates and applies it with the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the desire to "be like God" you get an abomination that has destroyed the world.

So is that a suitable answer for you? This is the true motive of the Serpent...it is not Airflight or Modern Communications...I am sure that an all Knowing God's technology is far beyond our modest advances and as it is he isn't in any danger of being overtaken by what the Researchers at MIT are doing.

For me, when I hear your assertion that you would side with the Serpent...all I hear is that you think its funny to screw with people's lives. You feel that changing the natural order of the universe is your's and Satan's personal right and responsibility and you don't expect people like me who know exactly what the Tree is to work with the forces that hand down catastrophic punishments for your activities.

[edit on 9-8-2009 by IDK88]

[edit on 9-8-2009 by IDK88]