If that $900 billion in wasteful spending is there, why hasn't it been cut, instead of waiting for this POS bill to be passed? Why not make the cuts and reduce the deficiet? Why the big hurry to cram this bill down our throats?

Simple. There aren't any cuts and they want to pass this bill before the people wake up and smell what they are shoveling.

why im tired of idiots that are for this health care plan is the simple fact that rahm emanuel the chief of staff said that he would much rather supply healthcare to a 22 year old than to a 2 year old... WOW and this is good healthcare... ok i am a soldier of the army and if the healthcare is any worse then what we recieve which from all i have heard and read it will be i feel we are in for a terrible forthcoming... not to mention why in the **** do canadians and immigrants come to our country lmfao hmmmm... lets think about it for all the idiots out there wait until the day you turn 50 and are denied blood pressure medication because you are too old give me a call so i can laugh at you hahahahaha.

There is nothing "grass roots" about these protesters. They are organized by the drug and insurance companies and their bought and paid for members of Congress both Republican and Democrat.

And all the red faced screaming "concerned Americans" are either great actors or really really dim witted and easily manipulated. But I suspect it's a mix of both.

Originally posted by js331975
It is not perfect, but it is the only recourse for people living below the poverty line who cannot afford to pay an insurance company.
All that this new health care plan is, is an alternative option for people in the middle class. It is an option that will both give you health care coverage if your insurance company drops you, and fill in the gaps of coverage that you may find yourself needing. It is not enforced enslavement to a government system. It’s an alternative.

The perspective of the OP ends in contradiction. Your first closing statement claims this new program is for "people living below the poverty line who cannot afford to pay an insurance company". In your own words, in your following statement you claim this new Health Care program is "an alternative option for people in the middle class."

Below the poverty line is not middle class.

Look at the Canada health care plan, its a freeking joke. Most people from Canada come to the United States to get proper health care.......Now were gonna switch to a health care plan like Canada.......This is going to kill alot people, young and old alike

Originally posted by Angus123
There is nothing "grass roots" about these protesters. They are organized by the drug and insurance companies and their bought and paid for members of Congress both Republican and Democrat.

And all the red faced screaming "concerned Americans" are either great actors or really really dim witted and easily manipulated. But I suspect it's a mix of both.

I'm sure the evidence you have of this is completely overwhelming.

Hey! Know what! Don't even source it. It's so obvious! Why even bother to back up your ridiculous claims?

I'm tired of idiots who refuse to read the legislation they put forth.

Legislation that will impact just about every single American in one way or another.

How can they tell me this is what's best for America when they don't even know what's in the bill?


Congress is laughing at the idiots calling the protesters idiots and vice versa, as Congress continues to put out legislation that is full of lobbyist connections. Yet nobody cares because everybody is too busy calling each other idiots.

I know people who moved down here from Canada (a family situation) and they say that the footage being shown about how bad health care is in Canada is pure rubbish and fabricated. They have been in this country for 5 years and are taking care of family members here (health issues) and say the health care system in the US stinks compared to Canada. Unfortunately, most in this country will not watch films like 'sicko' because they don't like Michael Moore (why I don't know). However, the health comparisons to these other countries in his documentary is valid. Bill Mayer's comment on CNN is correct: People in the US are stupid and won't think for themselves - they only watch Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, etc (fully aware that the fox crap is coming from Murdock the corporate 'mogul').


[edit on 8-8-2009 by whatsup]

[edit on 8-8-2009 by whatsup]

Can I give the OP a "minus" star and flag...

Now it sounds like the guy who started this thread is trying to get on his "friends" good side seeing that she is female. You two socialized idiots need to be together. How about the government do away with all their regulations on the insurance companies and allow me to get the pay from my employer and then decide whether or not I want insurance and then allow an insurance agent to try and sell me an individual policy. Make all the insurance companies compete for my business and see which ones will still be around in 5 years. Those left around would probably be good companies. We need less restrictions on health care and more freedoms. The socialized plan being promoted now is to eliminate private insurance companies in the long run. That, if you research, is the ultimate plan. dumb masses everywhere.

WHY I'M TIRED OF IDIOTS IN FAVOR OF BARRY'S COMMUNIST HEALTH CARE PROGRAM!

OBAMA SNUCK SOCIALIST HEALTH CARE REFORM IN THE STIMULUS BILL



By Byron J. Richards, CCN
February 13, 2009
NewsWithViews.com

Under the cover of emergency economic legislation the front wave of an entire new system of health care is being pushed on Americans. The strategy for this ploy was once explained by Obama’s former appointee to head the Department of Health and Human Services, and now exposed tax cheat, Senator Tom Daschle. Daschle spells out the plan on pages 196-197 of his book, Critical – What We Can Do About the Health Care Crisis, “The next president should act immediately to capitalize on the goodwill that greets any incoming administration. If that means attaching a health-care plan to the federal budget, so be it. This issue is too important to be stalled by Senate protocol.” In other words, public debate should be avoided, forget about democracy – so that Obama-care does not meet the same fate as Hillary-care.

In the last few days a debate on this issue has blown up on national TV, talk radio, and the internet. It began with an article published on Bloomberg titled, “Ruin Your Health With the Obama Stimulus Plan” by Betsy McCaughey. McCaughey says the plan could be used to ration care to the elderly, putting government, not doctors, in charge of what care will be delivered. She has been interviewed on Lou Dobbs and Glenn Beck. Fox News, the Drudge Report, and even Rush Limbaugh have spread the news. Limbaugh warned his listening audience that their patient privacy was at stake and that “Your medical treatments will be tracked electronically by a federal system.” The bottom line of their messages: quality of care and type of care will not be determined by the doctor, but rather by a new system of cost containment implemented by the federal government.

Democrats have found themselves on the defense. While getting grilled on FOX news Sen. Ben Cardin (D-Md.) said, “There is nothing in this legislation that interferes with a doctor making a decision, with the patient, on what is appropriate care. What is in this legislation is an effort to make sure we share information – generically, appropriately – so doctors and medical providers can have the best information, but there’s nothing in this bill that compromises the decision-making between the doctor and the patient.”

Democratic websites have attacked McCaughey, saying she is reading more into the bill than is actually there. She has fired back, saying the health-care language in the bill has nothing whatsoever to do with new jobs and jump starting the economy. She says, “Americans deserve an open and honest debate about creating a federal healthcare infrastructure of this magnitude. These health provisions should be removed from the stimulus bill and offered to Congress in separate legislation.”

We even have Scott Gottlieb getting into the discussion, the former second in command at the FDA, who during his time at the FDA advocated the industry-friendly position that Americans should be exposed to dangerous and expensive drug experiments and have no right to recourse if they are injured. Now he says, “The bill will be used to create guidelines to direct doctors’ treatment of difficult, high-cost medical problems.” His statement means that Big Pharma and Big Biotech are really concerned that their future cash-cow experiments may not be covered by the new plan.

Indeed, Big Pharma was really upset about parts of the plan that called for spending government money to try and compare the effectiveness of drugs, one to another. This provision has now been changed based on intense lobbying over the past few days. Such a provision would have been really bad news for Big Pharma, as it would quickly be discovered that their drugs hardly work at all to produce positive health outcomes, especially in preventive medicine. For a more comprehensive understanding of Big Pharma in relation to the health care handouts in this bill, read my article “Is Obama Bailing Out Big Pharma’s Bursting Bubble.”

The Hill website reported in early December that Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus (D-Mont.) wanted health IT in the stimulus bill to help avoid a fight on healthcare early in 2009 when lawmakers were drafting broader healthcare legislation. “There are going to be certain costs of healthcare reform — upfront costs. If I can put some of those upfront costs in the so-called stimulus bill, I’d rather put them there….We’ve got to create a very significant upfront effort early on and keep the momentum going on healthcare,” said Baucus, who added he was in regular contact with the Obama team, Kennedy and other key lawmakers.

Several things are certain. Health IT has nothing to do with meaningful stimulus for the economy. It is in the stimulus bill to get its own financial stimulus, helping to jump start Obama-care without any public debate.

The Scope of Obama’s Health IT

In the 680 page House version of the stimulus bill (H.R.1.E.H., pdf version), almost 200 pages are spent on Health IT (434-627). Right away you can understand that this is a comprehensive piece of legislation, taking up almost 1/3 of the bill. The legislation establishes within the Department of Health and Human Services an Office of the National Coordinator for Health Information Technology, which will be headed by a National Coordinator. This is like creating a new FDA, meaning the size of this new branch of government will end up quite large. It states various admirable purposes, such as ensuring electronic health information is secure and that it is used to better patient care. An overall goal is to have an electronic health record for every American by 2014 (page 445).

This is not a passive IT system that is collecting data. It is intended to be used as a tool to deploy a type of care it deems appropriate based on government employees making policy-related health decisions, with a stated purpose so the IT system “provides appropriate information to help guide medical decisions at the time and place of care.” (page 442)

Has anyone ever watched the movie "Gattaca"? There you have it. A two class system of the elite's who are entitled to everything, and the under class who cannot aspire to anything higher.

The lower class individual, can maybe make a living as a "grunt" in the military...as well as short lived. The soon to be WorldWide EnForcement Army will be fighting insurgent warfare for the next 500 years...which is job security!

In the movie, I believe he was a janitor or maintenance man...becasue he had a irregular heart beat.

In the future your genetic child will be weighed, measured, and assessed. Your childs cranium will be measured, the size and color of their eyes recorded. Their race will also be a determining factor.
Their blood types will be categorized, and their parental heritage/successes made note of. Each child will tested, ranked to it's abilites. Then each will be sent to academies where they will be trained according their designated abilities. Each child will be registered in the genetics pool of suitable breeding stock...and at birth, will have 10 predetermined mates. Your child will not have any choice in the matter.
If the mate, within the state marriage(sic) is not sanctioned, then it will be illegal.

This is a peak into into Eugenics. Like it? Nazi Germany tried it...the USA was also interested in it in the 1920's.

Other wise, we have to come to an understanding of it is we want as a whole society. Just how far do we have to go, to save a life, and at what expense? What is the real dollar value of a life? Should anyone be worth more than the other? Many will say YES! Many already feel thay they are better, and more deserving than the other. It is these types I have nothing but contempt for. We readily purport to be a nation of equality, yet, when it comes to saving their life should something unforseen take place, they think that they should have immediate presidence over everyone else. The wealthy and affluent are the usual suspects on this one.

Death is the great equalizer. It spares no one, and favors none. Read the daily obituaries and see for yourself of what I mean.

Health care has to be made fair, affordable, and equal to all. Just as the rules apply to everyone on the same game field or court, it should also be equally applied to our lives with in the healthcare paradigm.

It should be made illegal for anyone to sue a healthcare provider for services rendered, unless the injury is totally egregious...like leaving a pair of surgery clamps in the body, or removing the wrong organ etc..
Then the offending malpracticing culprit should have their license revoked!

There has to be limits however on the amounts awarded for what ever reasons . A staph infection, resulting in the loss of a toe, shouldn't then set someone up for a life on E-Z Street as a result. Which is what we are doing now. Lawyer groups advertise regularly on TV, looking for victims of this or that, so that they can go for the jugular of an industry or physican.
Real tort reform is a must. Ambulance and victim chasing has to end.
Suing the socks off of a doctor must stop. Suing each other to ruination has to stop as well.

The long and short of it all is; we have to stop screwing over everyone else while trying to financially enrich ourselves at their expense! Your toe isn't worth that much! Sorry!

Or, we can all practice the FOUR "B's"; i.e. "Beauty, Brains, Breeding, Bounty!" as declaired by the elitist snob, Mrs. Vernon-Williams in the movie "Cry Baby". Which seems closer to the truth today that anything else. Ever been around the "beautiful HOT people"? They're so conceited that they suck big time!
The toads of the lower classes will never kiss a princess or prince in this lifetime...Croak!

The choice is yours. Lets start by insisting we all play by the same rules...that means everyone! Are you listening Law Makers?

QUOTE-In this day and age people do not look for information, they do not research or inform themselves, they take what is readily given to them.


How else do you think Obama got elected.

I'm tired of these idiots too! It is a FACT that the middle class is suffering the most from lack of health insurance and we are getting reamed.

I am a Social Worker and work with people on Medicaid. These are poor people on welfare, some with disabilities, some with substance abuse problems, and some who are just plain lazy and who do NOT want to work, probably have NEVER worked. Yet they get ALL of their doctor appointments and procedures paid for, they don't even have a $10 co-pay, not even for labwork or major diagnostic tests administered They can walk into any ER or call an ambulance any time they have a headache and they don't owe a dime. People on Medicaid complain when they owe a $3.00 co-pay for a prescription that costs you and me hundreds of dollars.

I help schedule their doctor appointments and never lack for new doctors who will take Medicaid. In fact, appointments can be made right away, much faster than I can get in to be seen with my private insurance.

And get this, in my home state there is even FREE door-to-door transportation through Medicaid (paid for by you and me) from the person's home to their doctors office. I just call up the transportation company, give them the Medicaid number and voila, the person literally and figuratively has a free ride there and back, and the Medicaid recipient doesn't pay for any part of it.

Meanwhile, I get paid crap for working a 60-hr work-week and taxed excessively, but can barely afford my health care premiums and co-pays for basic preventative services like a mammogram.

And forget it if I get pregnant or something, my employer-based health insurance doesn't cover that terrible disease! Pregnancy would cost me at least ten grand out-of-pocket (with no complications)!

Yet if I was poor, lazy, addicted and/or mentally disabled, the government would subsidize my entire pregnancy through Medicaid. The government is essentially enabling the least productive people in our society to reproduce the most, live the longest and have the healthiest lives. Talk about the end of an empire.

Something is terribly wrong with this picture. American society will begin to deteriorate even more if the middle class is not given better health care coverage, and a single payer option like the poorest of the poor. Sorry folks, these are the FACTS. Those spewing lies about health care reform to further their conservative agenda (think Palin and Limbaugh) are NOT out for the best interests of the middle class.

WHY I'M TIRED OF IDIOTS IN FAVOR OF BARRY'S COMMUNIST HEALTH CARE PROGRAM!

PART 2

Anybody reading this legislation quickly realizes that it is much more than a health IT system. It is a new type of health care with a blank check on expanding its regulatory powers to accomplish anything it deems appropriate. For example, on page 447 it reads, “REPORT ON ADDITIONAL FUNDING OR AUTHORITY NEEDED.—Not later than 12 months after the date of the enactment of this title, the National Coordinator shall submit to the appropriate committees of jurisdiction of the House of Representatives and the Senate a report on any additional funding or authority the Coordinator or the HIT Policy Committee or HIT Standards Committee requires to evaluate and develop standards, implementation specifications, and certification criteria, or to achieve full participation of stakeholders in the adoption of a nationwide health information technology infrastructure that allows for the electronic use and exchange of health information.”

A short version of this is “the National Coordinator shall report on any additional authority required to achieve full participation of stakeholders.” In other words, everyone will play ball and or else the National Coordinator must seek more power to be able to get everyone in line.

The legislation makes it clear that this is not just about your personal health. On page 455 it says, “the HIT Policy Committee may consider the following additional areas: The appropriate uses of a nation wide health information infrastructure, including for purposes of biosurveillance and public health.” This approves the use of your health information for military-related needs and other public health measures (meaning did you get all your vaccinations? etc.). It is not at all a stretch of the imagination to interpret this to mean that your electronic health record will be used to ensure you are in compliance with public health initiatives.

The legislation specifically mandates compliance by the private sector, page 470: “SEC. 4112. APPLICATION TO PRIVATE ENTITIES. Each agency (relating to promoting quality and efficient health care in Federal government administered or sponsored health care programs) shall require in contracts or agreements with health care providers, health plans, or health insurance issuers that as each provider, plan, or issuer implements, acquires, or upgrades health information technology systems, it shall utilize, where available, health information technology systems and products that meet standards and implementation specifications.”

In other words, all health professionals are required to abide by the standards of care that are determined in conjunction with the cost containment and “best practices” ideas of the federal government, whatever they may be. This means that the government is directly telling doctors how to practice medicine, and even what kind of medicine is allowed, contrary to what Senator Cardin told FOX news.

The theme and importance of conforming to the government’s idea of medical care is further spelled out in the section on the MEDICARE PROGRAM - INCENTIVES FOR ELIGIBLE PROFESSIONALS. This section introduces the term “meaningful user,” which is repeatedly used in the context of a health professional who is conforming to whatever the IT system tells them to do with their patients. It offers them bonuses up to $15,000 per year to comply with the IT health guidelines. (page 513) This means your doctor’s bonus could be more important than the right decision for your health.

The goal is to get doctors in the loop and then force them to comply with guidelines of care: “The Secretary shall seek to improve the use of electronic health records and health care quality over time by requiring more stringent measures of meaningful use.” (page 518) This is an open-ended and vaguely defined approach that could mean almost anything.

Freedom and Choice are Being Sacrificed

The price of this legislation cannot be measured in dollars. The price of this legislation should be measured in your loss of freedom, loss of privacy, and loss of choice relating to your own health. The government will want your DNA in its database next. It will want a chip in your arm to really keep track of you and your health. One thing will lead to another.

This legislation represents a broad and sweeping change in the type of care you will be able to receive. And that care will be set by the government, by unelected bureaucrats with who knows what agenda.

If this is what Americans really want then it should be debated and discussed openly on its merits. Freedom is not easily regained once it is lost. Once upon a time the people of Germany had a truly advanced health care system called the “freedom to cure.” It encouraged alternative health practitioners to practice side by side with medical doctors, offering true freedom of choice, all in the best interests of the patient. That was a long time ago.

In the name of public health, those freedoms were set aside for the rise of a socialist system. It was recognized that health freedom fostered mental health and free thinking citizens, and those rights were not compatible with socialism. Health freedom and general health choice were obliterated in the name of the greater good. The government had control. Even though Hitler was stopped, Germany has never regained its health freedom and today has one of the most repressive socialist health care systems on earth.

Certainly we want to do what we can to help Americans who are struggling with health problems, especially when those problems were not created by their own poor choices. It is simply not right to sacrifice our identity as a free people to accomplish that objective.

"Uncle Obama Wants You!"

… as long as you’re willing to work for peanuts.

Health Care Bill (HR 3200) provides illegal immigrants, with carte blanche.

"Se Habla Español"



[edit on 8-8-2009 by seasoul]