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Why I'm Tired of People Opposed to Health Care Reform

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posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 11:15 AM
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reply to post by Xtinguish
 


Not Obama...that is congress. Congress makes the laws not the President.




posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 11:17 AM
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Originally posted by ExPostFacto
reply to post by jd140
 


Let me tell you something about healthcare insurance. I used to spend $300 a month for my insurance to cover my family. When I took my son to the doctor to get his required shots it cost me $150 out of my own pocket each time. I thought what the hell good is insurance that I pay for that doesn't cover what I need. I did the math and figured out that I should just save my money and pay cash out of pocket the times that I need to see the doctor. I canceled my insurance.

I returned to the doctor for my sons two year check up. Another series of shots was required. I had no insurance, and didn't qualify for medicare. The doctor gave the shots, and upon leaving I paid $50 out of my pocket. I asked the doctor why this time was so cheap, and they told me when I was on insurance the insurance company would only cover the expensive brand of the shot. Since I had no insurance I received the free government shot and all I paid for was the administration of the shot.

This is why insurance is a farce. They dictate certain procedures that aren't necessary. They dictate certain drugs. The argument that government would dictate to your doctor is a possibility I must admit, but it's already happening from the insurance companies working with all the drug companies to administer their brands of medication at higher prices, and probably unneeded treatments as well.


Just because you failed to find a plan that better suited your needs does not mean the whole health insurance system is a farce.



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 11:20 AM
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reply to post by Violet Sky
 


One big point a lot of people seem to not understand is that a right someone has does not impose anything on their neighbor. If healthcare is a right, then who is going to pay for it?



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 11:22 AM
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reply to post by mhc_70
 


lol yes that's right. Know of any good plans that aren't $800 a month? Every plan that I looked for ran $800 a month. That was nearly 1/3 of my monthly income.



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 11:29 AM
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Originally posted by ExPostFacto
reply to post by mhc_70
 


lol yes that's right. Know of any good plans that aren't $800 a month? Every plan that I looked for ran $800 a month. That was nearly 1/3 of my monthly income.


Not without knowing what state your in or many other varibles that make this a highly complex issue.

People like yourself would get much more benefit out of the Health Care Freedom plan.



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 11:34 AM
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Why I'm tired of Idiots who think the government is the solution to health reform

Seriously now, To reform health care you need a much more thought out approach than one rammed through the legaslature in just a few days eh?

Also there is nothing about limiting liability in the health care field. You put caps on the ridiculous malpractice judgements and you will see costs drop.

If I do a 1 hour patient trasnport in the chopter, I have to document for a minimum of 5-6 hours. Why? Cause the hospital is afraid they will be sued. SO I spend more time on paperwork than on patient care. And this crap about electronic records.
it takes longer to do than paper



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 11:35 AM
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reply to post by ExPostFacto
 


My healthcare insurance costs me $19.17 / month. I'm retired US military, and have my healthcare insurance through TriWest Healthcare. This is a privilege I earned by serving 20 years in the US military. Through your own decisions and actions you can earn privileges others do not have a right to. This is supposed to give people incentives to perform certain actions in their life to gain privileges. If full healthcare for life is deemed a right, then what's next? Should a fully funded 401k also be declared a right? Should fully funded vacations be a right? Or are those things you should have to earn, like good affordable healthcare insurance?



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 11:54 AM
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reply to post by Ferris.Bueller.II
 


$19.17 a month? Wow. Talk about government status privileges. Sounds next to a congressional insurance plan. I've worked in the private sector for years shouldn't I be entitled to the same? Or maybe I just work for the government at the tax payers expense, to further reap the rewards of privileges earned that earn votes from elected officials.

Maybe I should become a brown shirt, government sponsored informant, then maybe I'll have the opportunity to bask in the delight of my pillaging at home and abroad, and refer to those I once served for as not worthy of health care unless they follow my path. Do not think I'm belittling your service to country, but rather asking you to reconsider that your country is bankrupt and your insurance is about to expire. Unless you can join hands with the opposition and put your heads together to think about a better way forward.



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 12:06 PM
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Originally posted by mhc_70

Originally posted by ExPostFacto
reply to post by mhc_70
 


lol yes that's right. Know of any good plans that aren't $800 a month? Every plan that I looked for ran $800 a month. That was nearly 1/3 of my monthly income.


Not without knowing what state your in or many other varibles that make this a highly complex issue.

People like yourself would get much more benefit out of the Health Care Freedom plan.


People like myself? I must be one of the underprivileged in our society. Thanks to the downturn in the economy, a lay off later I'm on medicare so I guess I fit that status now. It is really hard for someone who supported Ron Paul to be in this situation, only to find my once allies unable to listen to my cries. Unable to move past ideology and figure out a way. The root of all evil is the financial system, the monetary pyramid scheme that enslaves us. Those that fall to the bottom have a tough time getting up. Freedom lovers should understand this more than the rest, but to no avail they have stood firm on ideology over proving they have a better way.

I asked for water, and you gave me none.

I asked for food, and you turned away.



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 12:12 PM
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Originally posted by ExPostFacto
I actually agree with Obama's vision of the health care plan as he stated, and nobody in the media seemed to get it. Just off the top of my head Obama said he wanted a system that:



  1. Did not increase spending
  2. Provided affordable coverage specifically to those who could not afford it
  3. Streamlined the system so that things are covered automatically when you go to the doctor
  4. Reduce costs of operating
  5. The new program should be part of the medicare framework initially to streamline it's implementation
  6. That you have an option to have private insurance still but will not be allowed to have no insurance


That doesn't sound like socialized health care to me. It sounds like a reasonable system, such as having auto insurance on every vehicle on the road.

Where I think this gets confused is in congress. The President's vision is in the right spot. When congress writes the law it seems to get a lot of additions to support corporations over the people, but was not part of the original plan.

I URGE you to actually read it.
That is indeed what was promised, but that is NOT what will be delivered by this bill.
Just the "did not increase spending" promise would shock you as to how it is to be funded.
And the "automatically covered" leaves out the parts about what is "automatically NOT covered and rationed".

Again----READ IT!!!!



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 12:18 PM
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reply to post by gotrox
 


Agreed. The bill is not what is promised. Although it is not finalized either. I think there should be dispute over what is in the bill. My opposition is to the bill, not to the idea behind the bill. Obama's idea of the bill is better than the bill. We need to separate Obama from this bill. Obama has clearly stated what he wants to see in it. Yet members of congress, both parties, have their own idea. I am against the congressional bill, not Obama's idea. This should be clearly the distinction. People are lumping together political parties and missing the point. This is clouded by the media attacks against the two parties. No matter what side you are on the media is distracting from the issues.



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 12:19 PM
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Originally posted by ExPostFacto
I actually agree with Obama's vision of the health care plan as he stated, and nobody in the media seemed to get it. Just off the top of my head Obama said he wanted a system that:



  1. Did not increase spending
  2. Provided affordable coverage specifically to those who could not afford it
  3. Streamlined the system so that things are covered automatically when you go to the doctor
  4. Reduce costs of operating
  5. The new program should be part of the medicare framework initially to streamline it's implementation
  6. That you have an option to have private insurance still but will not be allowed to have no insurance


That doesn't sound like socialized health care to me. It sounds like a reasonable system, such as having auto insurance on every vehicle on the road.

Where I think this gets confused is in congress. The President's vision is in the right spot. When congress writes the law it seems to get a lot of additions to support corporations over the people, but was not part of the original plan.


All the points you stated require the government to take control. Use taxpayer dollars to regulate health care. Sounds pretty damn socialist to me. What ever happened to freedom of choice in America? Your last point worries me the most. "will not be allowed to have NO insurance" Sounds like health care at gun point!!
Wake up!!!!



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 12:20 PM
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Originally posted by ExPostFacto

Originally posted by mhc_70

Originally posted by ExPostFacto
reply to post by mhc_70
 


lol yes that's right. Know of any good plans that aren't $800 a month? Every plan that I looked for ran $800 a month. That was nearly 1/3 of my monthly income.


Not without knowing what state your in or many other varibles that make this a highly complex issue.

People like yourself would get much more benefit out of the Health Care Freedom plan.


People like myself? I must be one of the underprivileged in our society. Thanks to the downturn in the economy, a lay off later I'm on medicare so I guess I fit that status now. It is really hard for someone who supported Ron Paul to be in this situation, only to find my once allies unable to listen to my cries. Unable to move past ideology and figure out a way. The root of all evil is the financial system, the monetary pyramid scheme that enslaves us. Those that fall to the bottom have a tough time getting up. Freedom lovers should understand this more than the rest, but to no avail they have stood firm on ideology over proving they have a better way.

I asked for water, and you gave me none.

I asked for food, and you turned away.


Did you even look at the plan I suggested or are you just relying on the victim status and other talking points from the left to get you through?



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 12:26 PM
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Originally posted by ExPostFacto

$19.17 a month? Wow. Talk about government status privileges. Sounds next to a congressional insurance plan. I've worked in the private sector for years shouldn't I be entitled to the same? Or maybe I just work for the government at the tax payers expense, to further reap the rewards of privileges earned that earn votes from elected officials.


If your private sector employer said you were entitled to the same healthcare plan retire U.S. military were entitled to by working for them, then 'yes', you would be.


Maybe I should become a brown shirt, government sponsored informant, then maybe I'll have the opportunity to bask in the delight of my pillaging at home and abroad, and refer to those I once served for as not worthy of health care unless they follow my path. Do not think I'm belittling your service to country, but rather asking you to reconsider that your country is bankrupt and your insurance is about to expire. Unless you can join hands with the opposition and put your heads together to think about a better way forward.


You should ask. Obama's private civilian military is supposedly going to be as well funded and equipped as the U.S. military is. 'Worthy' is very good word for it. Everything is worth what value you place on it. If you place healthcare for yourself and your family in such a high regard you don't want to pay for it either through your own money or actions in your life, then what is it truly worth to you?

[edit on 8/8/09 by Ferris.Bueller.II]



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 12:27 PM
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reply to post by Ferris.Bueller.II
 


Excellent post!

Many people wonder WHY these crowds are coming out to protest "healthcare" when nothing else seemed to really make them get off the couch and be heard. It is really simple, This time they have something to lose that makes an immediate impact.

Debt... no big deal, life goes on...

Federal reserve.. no big deal, life goes on..

Overseas problems... no big deal... life goes on...

Strinking the already drained bank accounts of working Americans... Whoo... wait a minite, that is immediate direct impact.

Working Middle Class Americans have and pay for insurance... Many of us have pretty damned good plans, I can get an MRI or Catscan approved in minites if needed (and I have). I can get specialist consultations within days (hours if an emergency). I can go to any "urgent care" business and take care of any "non lethal" injury or illness immediatly.

We tend to like this "on demand / instant" healthcare.

I cannot go to the emergency room and be seen in a timely manner... 4 to 6 hour wait because of a line of "non citizens".

Here is the psych of the resistance in a nutshell:

OK, Let's be truthful, we work, we have always worked, we pay for the privlidges of outstanding healthcare. America "Does" have the best healthcare in the world if you are insured well.

So, why should we (those who work, retired, or on current government medical) lower our standard of living, lifesaving diagnostics, instant treatment so we can join that 4-6 hour line and wait months for tests, treatment, seeing specialist ect.

Really, I am open to a "universal basic medical" plan for EVERYONE. Let's do it right! Tort reform, Pharma price negotiations, etc. Once you start seeing ANY EXEMPTIONS for specific elite or favored groups you know that that plan is BS. Point blank, if were going to have a "universal care" then it damn well better be "universal" because trying to ram a crap plan down the throats of the middle class while EXEMPTING yourselves is crap. Let's all bear the burdon together if were going to do it at all! Anything less is another screwing to the middle class and we all know it.


There you have it, why I am against this particular plan as it stands today (house version of the bill)waysandmeans.house.gov...

So, I am a greedy rotten SOB because I do not want to Lose something that I have worked for and because the Politicians, Govt Employees, and Unions EXEMPT themselves to keep what I got! (and they are not greedy rotten SOB's?)

All or nothing baby!!!
Don't try to make the rest of us "take one for the team" if your not willing to do it yourselves!

The same politicians who are pushing this on ME have VOTED OPENLY to EXEMPT THEMSELVES so... you know.... I think I will be against this one, start over and bring us a good healthcare bill this time!

Does this clear up any questions about why so many people are truly up in arms about this... it suddenly impacts them! That is why they are getting off the couch and speaking up... sure there are some groups "fanning the flames" but there has to be a fire there to fan.

www.humanevents.com...


Democrats also voted down an amendment from Rep. Dean Heller (R-Nv.) that would require all Members of Congress to get insurance through the government-run plan. Apparently Democrat members of Congress do not like the government plan they’re trying to inflict on the rest of us. In a straight party line vote, Democrats voted against exempting themselves from the government-run plan by a vote of 21-18.

“We also had an amendment to require that members of Congress must participate in the government-run plan,” Camp said. “If it’s such a great idea, it should be a great idea for members of Congress. The majority voted to prevent that from happening. They voted to exempt members of Congress from the government-run plan.”

Also voted down were amendments that would require proof of citizenship or legal status to sign up for the government plan, that would bar government funding abortion as a plan “benefit,” and an amendment that would bar rationing of health care based on comparative effectiveness data.




[edit on 8-8-2009 by infolurker]

[edit on 8-8-2009 by infolurker]



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 12:38 PM
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Originally posted by infolurker
reply to post by Ferris.Bueller.II
 


Excellent post!

Many people wonder WHY these crowds are coming out to protest "healthcare" when nothing else seemed to really make them get off the couch and be heard. It is really simple, This time they have something to lose that makes an immediate impact.

Debt... no big deal, life goes on...

Federal reserve.. no big deal, life goes on..

Overseas problems... no big deal... life goes on...

Strinking the already drained bank accounts of working Americans... Whoo... wait a minite, that is immediate direct impact.

Working Middle Class Americans have and pay for insurance... Many of us have pretty damned good plans, I can get an MRI or Catscan approved in minites if needed (and I have). I can get specialist consultations within days (hours if an emergency). I can go to any "urgent care" business and take care of any "non lethal" injury or illness immediatly.

We tend to like this "on demand / instant" healthcare.

I cannot go to the emergency room and be seen in a timely manner... 4 to 6 hour wait because of a line of "non citizens".

Here is the psych of the resistance in a nutshell:

OK, Let's be truthful, we work, we have always worked, we pay for the privlidges of outstanding healthcare. America "Does" have the best healthcare in the world if you are insured well.

So, why should we (those who work, retired, or on current government medical) lower our standard of living, lifesaving diagnostics, instant treatment so we can join that 4-6 hour line and wait months for tests, treatment, seeing specialist ect.

Really, I am open to a "universal basic medical" plan for EVERYONE. Let's do it right! Tort reform, Pharma price negotiations, etc. Once you start seeing ANY EXEMPTIONS for specific elite or favored groups you know that that plan is BS. Point blank, if were going to have a "universal care" then it damn well better be "universal" because trying to ram a crap plan down the throats of the middle class while EXEMPTING yourselves is crap. Let's all bear the burdon together if were going to do it at all! Anything less is another screwing to the middle class and we all know it.


There you have it, why I am against this particular plan as it stands today (house version of the bill)waysandmeans.house.gov...

So, I am a greedy rotten SOB because I do not want to Lose something that I have worked for and because the Politicians, Govt Employees, and Unions EXEMPT themselves to keep what I got! (and they are not greedy rotten SOB's?)

All or nothing baby!!!
Don't try to make the rest of us "take one for the team" if your not willing to do it yourselves!

The same politicians who are pushing this on ME have VOTED OPENLY to EXEMPT THEMSELVES so... you know.... I think I will be against this one, start over and bring us a good healthcare bill this time!

Does this clear up any questions about why so many people are truly up in arms about this... it suddenly impacts them! That is why they are getting off the couch and speaking up... sure there are some groups "fanning the flames" but there has to be a fire there to fan.

www.humanevents.com...


Democrats also voted down an amendment from Rep. Dean Heller (R-Nv.) that would require all Members of Congress to get insurance through the government-run plan. Apparently Democrat members of Congress do not like the government plan they’re trying to inflict on the rest of us. In a straight party line vote, Democrats voted against exempting themselves from the government-run plan by a vote of 21-18.

“We also had an amendment to require that members of Congress must participate in the government-run plan,” Camp said. “If it’s such a great idea, it should be a great idea for members of Congress. The majority voted to prevent that from happening. They voted to exempt members of Congress from the government-run plan.”

Also voted down were amendments that would require proof of citizenship or legal status to sign up for the government plan, that would bar government funding abortion as a plan “benefit,” and an amendment that would bar rationing of health care based on comparative effectiveness data.




Well said!!!




posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 12:38 PM
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Originally posted by js331975
You have to question the motives of any group of people that does not want you to think for yourself.


I agree completely. That's why I question the idea that you blame individuals and a news channel for the fact that people don't want to take care of those that refuse to take care of themselves.
I still don't see any real transparency in the program from any other sources besides Fox news that explains completely just who they are going to screw over to buy your vote in the next election but you don't mind that do you? As long as you get another freebee that others have to pay for you are fine.


Originally posted by js331975
Single Payer Health Care is a good thing. It is not the government it is the only recourse for people living below the poverty line who cannot afford to pay an insurance company.


Sure,
It's good if you are one of those who won't pay for healthcare for yourself. My healthcare is absolutely exhorbitant in cost and I really can't afford it. The return is poor and the restrictions make it nearly unusable. Still, I pay it because it is extremely irresponsible, childish, selfish, immature, maybe even stupid (a word you used in your first post so I'll follow your lead) to have no healthcare at all. I don't like it but I am being responsible for my own care so I don't become a burden to society.

Now YOU, for some bizarre reason, think that I owe you health care. YOU want me to get taxed on what I already can't afford and am struggling to pay so that YOU don't have to carry the responsibility for yourself. YOU want to do it by taxing me for what I pay on healthcare that I can barely pay.

I don't disrupt town meetings or get my news from Fox. I really don't need to be spoon fed my news or prevent others from getting information but I can't see fox doing anything that some of the other channels aren't doing in their own way. I don't see protesters doing anything that the libs haven't done historically either. Sure, blame them for being pissed but it is their right to do so as the MSM and liberal/dems have demonstrated so many times in the past.

What I really see here is another person who wants a free ride and wants me and people like myself to pay for it so that you can continue to not be responsible for your own life.

You have to question the motives of any group of people that does not want you to be responsible for yourself.



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 12:40 PM
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reply to post by ExPostFacto
 


Ok explain to me exactly how this bill wouldn't increase spending. Exactly. I want a break down of how they plan on paying for all of these peoples medical bills without increasing spending. Also I would like to know how they plan on keeping this going since everything they get involved in or start up goes bankrupt I want to know their plan for avoiding this.


All of these people supporting health care popped up after Obama asked his supporters to go out and talk about it. You think we're idiots? We have our own views on the subject without our "leader" telling us what to think about it. Health care reform is bunk but if you want to blindly let the govt attempt to handle everything then go ahead. I'll simply take my energy and switch to a less socialist country. My great grandfather didn't fight in WW2 so me and my family and everyone else can get this crap shoved down our throats.



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 01:37 PM
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reply to post by Boogley
 


I think I'll have to explain this by saying that it is more simple than we think, but it requires a dismantling of the monetary system in order to accomplish this goal. Our system is designed around greed. More for me, less for you, because I worked harder for it. We justify our importance around material wealth and infringement on that wealth. The argument is always that I worked harder for it. The argument is egotistical and self indulgent and will be the downfall of our country.

I'm going to have to create a thread regarding working this out. If you like the current system, then it will be gone in a matter of time, and you can revel in your glory about the good ole days where you worked hard to earn the privilege to have affordable insurance. Congress is still missing the point on the reform choosing to line their campaign contributors pockets (insurance companies, etc.). I don't think all doctors are good people, and they are just as greedy in some cases. This is the same in all professions, after all they worked hard to get there right? They deserve money and lots of it, so they play the game.

For this issue, we need creative problem solving. The solution seems so clear to me I wonder why congress hasn't voted for it. But I know why they haven't, because it would require them to have to slash budgets in other areas. They chose to raise taxes instead of slashing budgets. This is their mistake. The solution to this issue isn't whether it costs something, medicare already costs something. The solution is a tit for tat approach. Remove something to alleviate the increase cost. Spread out the cost, as you enroll more people costs go down as profit goes up.

The simple solution to it is simple and I'll write a proposal where maybe we can see the common ground. I'll post this tonight, maybe we can discuss the details and do something productive instead of bickering over corrupt politicians.



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 02:41 PM
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This touches home for me. 4 months ago my brother in law was laid off of work and lost medical insurance for My sister and nephew. Last month, My sister was diagnosed with breast cancer. She has no coverage for chemo, radiation or surgeries she'll need over the 7 months. She doesnt even qualify for govt aid because they 'earn too much', which, btw is 45,000 a yr with both of them working. She cleaned houses for a living. To qualify for any medical insurance they have filed for divorce to negate My brother in laws income for her to get the care she needs. Why is this okay? Who are these ppl who say my sisters life is worth less than theirs. She is a wife, a mother, a sister and My best friend and she deserves the same chance at a long healthy life, the same chance as You.

This whole thing drives me crazy. My heart aches over this. Why do ppl have to die over lack of healthcare? These are ppls mother, father, their children. What is wrong with those who oppose this? I'd be more than okay with paying higher taxes for the well being of another human, for the life of another. I pay taxes for the war I oppose. My money is spent on murdering others and shame on those who are okay with it. I dont want to be responsible for the hatefulness and bigotry of others. How can u be opposed to something that benefits so many? You have no single right to the happiness and health we all deserve. Id bet a good majority of ppl on this site are Christians or u follow the teachings of a kind and loving God who created Us all equal. A God who tells u to love ur neighbor and help those who are needy or in pain. I'm calling u hypocrites and liars for u go against everything God teaches and expects from u. I believe we are all judged and weighed in the end and I think it will be directly related to how We've treated and cared for Our fellow man. I'm thinkin some of us are gonna fall awful short, cuz Kharma, She's a bitch.





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