Why I'm Tired of People Opposed to Health Care Reform

Originally posted by heliosprime

Originally posted by realshanti
If this has been adrssed already my apologies - but

fact: there is no "bill" as yet - only the democrats proposal - and there are definitely legitimate concerns -


Whre is the republican proposal?????? WHERE IS IT? They have lost all perspective - all they want to do is polarize people like me who are genuinely concerned in order to gain back power they have lost - and I'm not buying their crap and certainly not from Limbaugh or fox or cnn or msn - that pig just won't fly.....

It is obvious you have no clue how congress works...........the "proposal" is the "bill" and the only thing Repubs can do is offer amendments since they can't get there versions voted out of committee to become a bill.

You are blinded by your fear and hate.

You're completely out of line with that last comment, friend - I have actual concerns..and questions - how exactly does that make me blind? or in fear?
and who is it that I hate???? I do not respect Mr Limbaugh's character or any of the main commentators in the media - that does not make me a hater - just a critical observer of human behavior....If we base our thinking on what these people tell us we are in big trouble - thats why the town hall meetings are so important...but the screamers wouldn't allow that to take place and I think that's sad and not at all helpful...

The republicans could have put forth their proposal or at least some cogent opposition in the form of public comment via aritcles - via interviews - they are not helpless...

And no the proposal is not the final bill that will be voted on eventually -
and without discussion of it in depth - without allowing discussion to take place then we are left without the knowledge we seek....

sir - that is not fear - thats fact...

Obama is a very smart guy, which is what we needed to lead very ignorant and selfish/greedy people in the USA.

People don't realize that basic health care shouldn't be a privilege in a modern society.

Health care, education and food should not be privileges in a rich modern society. But that would remove a lot of lining from many peoples pockets.

We should be learning from the Swiss.

My comments will be short.

Ohio has just instituted a 2% "franchise tax" on all hospitals in Ohio. In other words all hospitals in Ohio are required to pay 2% tax on all hospital charges for the very fact that they are located in Ohio. For the small, independent hospital here in Oxford, it will be about $1.5-$2 million. This is causing talks of layoffs in the hospital to help cover this additional expense. While not part of the healthcare reform (it is a money grab by the state) think of how similar laws in other states may effect the cost of the Obama Healthcare Reform.

Even with budget cuts and changing the collection the Medicare taxes (of which I have heard no mention of as of yet) collected on your paycheck nets an increase of 50 cents per week from your paycheck for this "free" healthcare, is it not at the very least hypocrisy that the new private planes were purchased for Congress to take out of country vacations during the August break when they chided the Automaker executives for hopping chartered flights to DC to ask for more money?

Let's say a bright young person wishes to become a doctor next year, they go to school using grants and loans as a pre-med student, then med school and required residency and after their time they now a doctor with around $150K in loans to payoff. They must now find work or open their own office and not charge what they would like but are limited and controlled by the Obama Plan as to what can be charged for care. In other words, this doctor is now income controlled by the US Government. If an operation takes 20 minutes or 7 hours the procedure is price controlled. That friends, is not socialism, it is communism at best...slavery at the worst.

Using that same doctor and the human nature to control the world around them, let's say that bright young person was not in the "right" fraternity, political party or was related to someone that the new Healthcare Czar (you know there will be one) did not like? Will that doctor get a fair shake? Will he even be permitted to become a doctor?

And finally, many breakthroughs in medicine have come from experimental procedures. These are often not covered by insurance companies today and most definitely will not be covered under ObamaCare. Is this good for the advancement of medicine?

I agree that Healthcare is an important issue. I have spend quite a bit of my adult life without insurance due to crappy jobs and poor coverage when I did have it. I have been lucky in the fact that I have not needed coverage when I did not have it and had an on the job injury the one time it was needed and was not covered. In my opinion, the largest problems with Healthcare is the expense to the individual and lack of affordable coverage to the unemployed (out of work, off the clock or retired). The Obama Plan does cover those two points, however that coverage comes with too many questions and too many non-monetary costs.

Last thing that I would ever want is the same dumbasses in DC that ignored the public outcry against the bailouts and did them anyway to determine in a committee if an ACE bandage needs to be wound clockwise or counter-clockwise when my broken arm needs a cast but treatment as a sprain will save a couple bucks during an election year and make them look good.

But if they do ramrod this crap through, I hope for their sakes they had the foresight to include a rider for puncture-proof underwear for elected officials because I definitely see the pitchforks coming.

Originally posted by js331975
This was a note written by a friend of mine. She's an individual that doesn't react emotionally but rather thinks things through. Also I've included a response to her post.Okay people. I’d like to clarify some things.

First I want to say that the reason I posted that yesterday was because I had spent part of the afternoon doing my usual on the interweb, when I saw video of people disrupting the town hall meetings that have been arranged throughout the country to try to explain single payer healthcare. The protesters have been chanting nonsense and screaming over the speakers as they try to inform the public of what it’s all about. See, they have been unable to explain it – just explain it – through other regular channels because of people like Fox News etc. who rip it apart without letting the information get out there. In this day and age people do not look for information, they do not research or inform themselves, they take what is readily given to them. And when supposedly impartial journalists are shouting at you that the government just wants to tax you into the next century, it causes otherwise reasonable people to panic and get angry, which is exactly what they want to happen.
These people shouting were a ‘grassroots protest’ designed to disrupt the exchange of information and that pisses me off. It’s one thing to protest an idea or something terrible that is happening, and I am all for that - trust me, but to protest informing the public is absurd. Idiotic.
This is living proof that it is not just the information you are given but the quality of that information. How can you make up your own mind and make your own choices if you do not expose yourself to all sides of an issue?

You have to question the motives of any group of people that does not want you to think for yourself.

Right now the conservative right is angry. They lost big this last election, and are going out of their way to sabotage every move, every decision, every idea this new administration has so that they can say “See, it doesn’t work. It’s going to cost you more in taxes and make life harder than it already is.” Then you’ll vote for them again and everything will go back to the status quo – which as you can clearly see by the state of things right now (failing health care system, failing environment, failing economy, failing education) that the status quo doesn’t work. Things change and are changing – and have to change. It’s the nature of living things to evolve, and this goes for societies too (RE: compare today with say, the 1950’s).

Single Payer Health Care is a good thing. It is not the government deciding the fate of your health. Nor is it new. We already have various forms of it in this country: Medicaid for example. It is not perfect, but it is the only recourse for people living below the poverty line who cannot afford to pay an insurance company.
All that this new health care plan is, is an alternative option for people in the middle class. It is an option that will both give you health care coverage if your insurance company drops you, and fill in the gaps of coverage that you may find yourself needing. It is not enforced enslavement to a government system. It’s an alternative.

Yes indeed. I agree. I have found that the conservatives that I know, fail to explore all sides to the story. What they hear on Fox News, and from Rush Limbaugh, they take as gospel truth, whatever that means. Just like the Bible, most don't read it, they are lead by their pastors, all of whom interpret it the way they think is right, or the way they want it to be heard.
This same thing is going on with the health care issue on television.

Originally posted by js331975
Obama’s economic plan is huge. Initially set at nearly 900 billion, it’s been bastardized quite a lot, and criticized mercilessly. You hear the extreme numbers, and then they tell you that taxes will go up. They don’t tell you however, about the other half of the plan that involves cutting wasteful government spending. That involves cutting nearly 900 billion in wasteful spending – essentially canceling out the 900 billion earmarked for: fixing the economy, creating jobs, repairing the environment, feeding the over 50 million starving children in this country. We suddenly have a president who wants to invest in his own people, who thinks that our taxes should be paying for us, as was the original intent.
So you can go off about price tags, and wasting money – but I do not consider Education and Healthcare to be wasteful government spending.

As for long waits and expensive prescriptions and equipment, that is an out and out lie. The new government health care program is set up essentially the way my SPHC program is. I’m on MassHealth because I do not have health insurance and am lucky enough to live in a state that provides an alternative. I do not wait for appointments or procedures. I choose my own doctors. My prescriptions went from costing over $1200 a month to $6. The quality of my health care actually improved from when I was younger and on my father’s John Hancock health plan.

Right now this country is in crisis, and health care is a part of that. It is essential that we work to some place where everyone gets equal care and consideration whatever their economic standing is. No one should have to suffer, worsen or die because they did everything right and yet couldn’t get the care they so deserved. Healthcare is not a privilege, health care is a human right. So please, educate yourself as to what is going on. Listen to all sides of the story. Consider all angles, and don’t just jump on some bandwagon. I have never in my adult life just gone along with something, I always take in everything and drawn my own conclusions and I suggest you do the same. And if you ever want to debate any of these issues with me, I’m all for it. Just be prepared – in the spirit of Ray Bradbury – for the Slap.

It's all about the money. The money that fills their bank accounts. They really don't care about the poor and afflicted. I mean, isn't it obvious? We had Reagan, Bush Sr., and Bush Jr..............and no alternative health care options. They didn't even was to discuss the issue. Ronald Reagan spoke out against Medicare back in 1961. He told the public that it was socialised medicine. He encouraged everyone to speak out against it. And, as much as I hate to say it, and as much as they continue to deny it, they are angry that a black man is our President.

Originally posted by realshanti
If this has been adrssed already my apologies - but

fact: there is no "bill" as yet - only the democrats proposal - and there are definitely legitimate concerns -

fact: the republicans have not offered their version or proposal - they have martialed all their forces to criticize the dems and to disrupt their townhall meetings where folk are supposed to ask questions and voice their concerns and opposition - without acting like they've been paid by fox and insurance companies to start a shouting match.... If the "protestors" had asked questions - pointed and in depth questions, some of my concerns about the PROPOSAL might have been addressed....but instead I'm supposed to choose sides based on Rush Limbaughs spin?.....you have got to be kidding me - are people really buying this townhall brownshirt BS???? And basing their thinking on some media whore???? crikey we have come low....

I have real concerns about euthanasia and abortion funding and the cost of parmaceuticals and why we pay more than any other country in the world for our medicine..if you scream at the people who should be called to account instead of nailing them with hard questions then you have lost my vote and my confidence in your ability to think rationally and strategically -

Whre is the republican proposal?????? WHERE IS IT? They have lost all perspective - all they want to do is polarize people like me who are genuinely concerned in order to gain back power they have lost - and I'm not buying their crap and certainly not from Limbaugh or fox or cnn or msn - that pig just won't fly.....

www.abovetopsecret.com...

The plan uses money left over from the financial bailouts to give people without heath insurance and those unhappy with their health insurance vouchers, $2000 if your single and $5000 for families. Then it lets you take that money and shop health insurance nationwide to find a plan best suited to your needs.

There are many other good things proposed in this plan IMO, check it out.



[edit on 9-8-2009 by mhc_70]

The Fear Rhetoric reminds me of another time when similar tactics were used - anyone remember the ERA (Equal Rights Amendment)?

Though I was young, I clearly remember many things that we were told that, as an adult, I know to be clear distortions, lies told in order to instill fear, things that had no basis in fact.

The 'OMG, they will kill your grandparents' sort of rhetoric reminds me of the 'OMG, you'll have to share the bathroom with boys' that we heard about ERA. Total baloney, said out of ignorance or deliberately trying to instill fear.

Obama is the most clever president you've ever had!

He's not stubborn and tied down with pride.

He actually looks to other countries to use as examples of good ways to produce energy and welfare instead of insisting that USA has no problems and all other countries suck.

reply to post by mhc_70


But you see, thats my -choice-. If -I- decide that I like the Govs. plan better then the other plans available from my company, then yay for me! and you know what? if -I- decide to -try- the plan for a year and don't like it, well guess what?! I will go back to a private plan!! Choice is good and as for the part about taxes? well I pay taxes for Schools and I don't have any kids so why should I mind paying taxes for a health plan that I can opt into when I want to.

Originally posted by Jadette
The 'OMG, they will kill your grandparents' sort of rhetoric reminds me of the 'OMG, you'll have to share the bathroom with boys' that we heard about ERA. Total baloney, said out of ignorance or deliberately trying to instill fear.

Maybe you should read whats happening in the Uk.

Speaking to the American Medical Association last month, President Obama waxed enthusiastic about countries that "spend less" than the U.S. on health care. He's right that many countries do, but what he doesn't want to explain is how they ration care to do it.

Take the United Kingdom, which is often praised for spending as little as half as much per capita on health care as the U.S. Credit for this cost containment goes in large part to the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence, or NICE. Americans should understand how NICE works because under ObamaCare it will eventually be coming to a hospital near you.

The British officials who established NICE in the late 1990s pitched it as a body that would ensure that the government-run National Health System used "best practices" in medicine. As the Guardian reported in 1998: "Health ministers are setting up [NICE], designed to ensure that every treatment, operation, or medicine used is the proven best. It will root out under-performing doctors and useless treatments, spreading best practices everywhere."

What NICE has become in practice is a rationing board. As health costs have exploded in Britain as in most developed countries, NICE has become the heavy that reduces spending by limiting the treatments that 61 million citizens are allowed to receive through the NHS. For example:

In March, NICE ruled against the use of two drugs, Lapatinib and Sutent, that prolong the life of those with certain forms of breast and stomach cancer. This followed on a 2008 ruling against drugs -- including Sutent, which costs about $50,000 -- that would help terminally ill kidney-cancer patients. After last year's ruling, Peter Littlejohns, NICE's clinical and public health director, noted that "there is a limited pot of money," that the drugs were of "marginal benefit at quite often an extreme cost," and the money might be better spent elsewhere.

In 2007, the board restricted access to two drugs for macular degeneration, a cause of blindness. The drug Macugen was blocked outright. The other, Lucentis, was limited to a particular category of individuals with the disease, restricting it to about one in five sufferers. Even then, the drug was only approved for use in one eye, meaning those lucky enough to get it would still go blind in the other. As Andrew Dillon, the chief executive of NICE, explained at the time: "When treatments are very expensive, we have to use them where they give the most benefit to patients."

NICE has limited the use of Alzheimer's drugs, including Aricept, for patients in the early stages of the disease. Doctors in the U.K. argued vociferously that the most effective way to slow the progress of the disease is to give drugs at the first sign of dementia. NICE ruled the drugs were not "cost effective" in early stages.

Other NICE rulings include the rejection of Kineret, a drug for rheumatoid arthritis; Avonex, which reduces the relapse rate in patients with multiple sclerosis; and lenalidomide, which fights multiple myeloma. Private U.S. insurers often cover all, or at least portions, of the cost of many of these NICE-denied drugs.

NICE has also produced guidance that restrains certain surgical operations and treatments. NICE has restrictions on fertility treatments, as well as on procedures for back pain, including surgeries and steroid injections. The U.K. has recently been absorbed by the cases of several young women who developed cervical cancer after being denied pap smears by a related health authority, the Cervical Screening Programme, which in order to reduce government health-care spending has refused the screens to women under age 25.

We could go on. NICE is the target of frequent protests and lawsuits, and at times under political pressure has reversed or watered-down its rulings. But it has by now established the principle that the only way to control health-care costs is for this panel of medical high priests to dictate limits on certain kinds of care to certain classes of patients.

The NICE board even has a mathematical formula for doing so, based on a "quality adjusted life year." While the guidelines are complex, NICE currently holds that, except in unusual cases, Britain cannot afford to spend more than about $22,000 to extend a life by six months. Why $22,000? It seems to be arbitrary, calculated mainly based on how much the government wants to spend on health care. That figure has remained fairly constant since NICE was established and doesn't adjust for either overall or medical inflation.

reply to post by Helmkat


You should read the plan, before you project whats in it.

Obama care will eliminate all forms of private health insurance, leaving the government as the only available provider and solely charge of what health care you will recieve.

[edit on 9-8-2009 by mhc_70]

Originally posted by mhc_70
reply to post by Helmkat

 

You should read the plan, before you project whats in it.

Obama care will eliminate all forms of private health insurance, leaving the government as the only available provider and solely charge of what health care you will recieve.

[edit on 9-8-2009 by mhc_70]

Please post this concrete fact for everyone to see please.

Thanks in advance.

P.S. Fearmongering will not work with me.

reply to post by Helmkat


www.abovetopsecret.com...

Very eye opening thread, everyone should read.

Originally posted by mhc_70


If you call my observation judgemental, how will you feel when it is up to the government to judge the level of health care you and your family are worthy of?

I feel better about it than insurance companies to judge the level of care I receive.

This should be a no-brainer. I dont like big government either....big government in the way of it has been for the corporations since Reagan and not for the people.

Its like we are in some crazy satire the way you people think sometimes!

Edit to add: I think you Christians are evil. Nothing good has come from this religion but pain.

[edit on 9-8-2009 by LoneGunMan]

Originally posted by LoneGunMan

Originally posted by mhc_70


If you call my observation judgemental, how will you feel when it is up to the government to judge the level of health care you and your family are worthy of?

I feel better about it than insurance companies to judge the level of care I receive.

This should be a no-brainer. I dont like big government either....big government in the way of it has been for the corporations since Reagan and not for the people.

Its like we are in some crazy satire the way you people think sometimes!

Edit to add: I think you Christians are evil. Nothing good has come from this religion but pain.

[edit on 9-8-2009 by LoneGunMan]

So conservative christians are evil?

Then why do they donate so much more of their money, time and blood than the libruls?

www.realclearpolitics.com...

-- Although liberal families' incomes average 6 percent higher than those of conservative families, conservative-headed households give, on average, 30 percent more to charity than the average liberal-headed household ($1,600 per year vs. $1,227).

-- Conservatives also donate more time and give more blood.

-- People who reject the idea that "government has a responsibility to reduce income inequality" give an average of four times more than people who accept that proposition.

The facts say the left is far more stingy with their money, time and blood.

They want free health care for the poor, why don't they practice what they preach and voluntarily help out the poor.

They sure preach alot about how greedy the conservatives are, but actions speak louder than words.


[edit on 9-8-2009 by mhc_70]

reply to post by Helmkat


I find it amazing that people actually believe that there will be a choice or option, the way the new "option" is set up the taxes, and employer incentives will literally leave NO option or choice at all. Eventually private plans will be eliminated by design, while initially making everyone believe that they have a choice.

They want complete control over the entire health care system period, this plan will accomplish that, and EVEY American should at least take the time to study the actual bill. Once they have complete control there will be no going back, you will then find a very frightening reality where when you need care you will have to go through the system to get it, and that system is going to be designed to cut costs in every way they can, that is where the real nightmares will begin. Most of you will not worry about any of this until it actually affects YOU, but then it will be too late.

How are they going to pay for health care for EVERYONE? ... Read the bill!

The health care system needs changes, but not this.

Please, no matter what I say or anyone says about this plan, take some time to at least study it on your own.

The following thread will take you through a lot of the bill, and you can find links to the actual bill.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

If you have gone through that bill, or just the thread and still feel good about the plan, then I wish you all the best in the future, you will need it.

[edit on 9-8-2009 by Walkswithfish]

Originally posted by mhc_70
reply to post by Helmkat

 

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Very eye opening thread, everyone should read.

Your agenda is laid bare.

A thread on this site is not -proof- of anything. Reading that thread proves that.

Please display the actual line of the proposed bill that says all private health care will be removed -and not a line from a post on this site-.

Proof, proof, proof. Not speculation or heresay.

Originally posted by Helmkat

Originally posted by mhc_70
reply to post by Helmkat

 

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Very eye opening thread, everyone should read.

Your agenda is laid bare.

A thread on this site is not -proof- of anything. Reading that thread proves that.

Please display the actual line of the proposed bill that says all private health care will be removed -and not a line from a post on this site-.

Proof, proof, proof. Not speculation or heresay.

You want everything handed to you, don't you?

Don't you feel that this matter is worth a little effort on your part?

reply to post by mhc_70


Perhaps the future should look forward to prevention of ill health instead of our current system of pouring salve on symptoms but never really dealing with the why people are getting sick.

It's all been a huge money making machine - as long as we are slowly (chronically) killing ourselves with bad life style choices, the health care systems has been happy to recieved our money to 'make us feel better' without really solving the underlying cause.

Without all the bad food choices, poor air quality, cancers, etc..., they would be broke.

Something needs to change here. Incentives for better lifestyle choices needs to be put into health care. Prices of medical supplies, equipment, services NEED regulation.

Many people think that they are getting great care because their doctors have ordered every test under the sun for them. But the majority of those tests were unnecessary. Doctors order thoses tests done because the more you come to the office the more $$$ they make. And if the the insurance company says, "We'll cover it," then the doctors order it, regardless of whether you really need it or not. And the tests shut you up from complaining because you feel like 'everything is being done for me.'
Doctors like that - its a good deal for them: make the cash and shut you up.

So don't think, "OMG, Obama care will cause me to have worse care." The truth is Obama care will cut out all the nonsense that is currently apart of the system.

Originally posted by Helmkat

Originally posted by mhc_70
reply to post by Helmkat

 

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Very eye opening thread, everyone should read.

Your agenda is laid bare.

A thread on this site is not -proof- of anything. Reading that thread proves that.

Please display the actual line of the proposed bill that says all private health care will be removed -and not a line from a post on this site-.

Proof, proof, proof. Not speculation or heresay.

The members participating in that thread have done a great job of going through that bill and you should read what they have posted in that thread before dismissing it... However If you don't like that thread, or the member review of the bill simply download the following PDF file of the ACTUAL bill, and read it on your own.

The bill speaks for itself, the wording is a bit tricky, but it is all in there.

EVERY American needs to see what is in this bill, as it will have profound impact on their lives in the future.

edlabor.house.gov/documents (.pdf file download)



[edit on 9-8-2009 by Walkswithfish]