Hiroshima- Those brutal immoral American during WWII

reply to post by TrustMeImaSalesman


Yes, America did a dirtybomb under-handed trick, we all know that...
Yes, America was itching to test it on a live population...
Yes, America knew not one, but 2 BOMBS would kill innocent children...
Yes, Americas scientific community was salivating to get their hands on how fallout from "Little Boy" effected the human body...
Yes, America was found to be the real instigator...
No, Japan or any other country has a military base near North America... Yes, America has bases in everyones backyard...
Yes, they are sick and tired of G.I. Joe...
Yes, Japan and China are getting their quiet revenge by manufacturing everything Americans lay their hands on...
Yes, the US world domination scheme is backfiring...
And yes, Americans are still the brutal war mongers of old...

[edit on 8-8-2009 by Level X]

Originally posted by Level X
reply to post by TrustMeImaSalesman

 

Yes, America did a dirtybomb under-handed trick, we all know that...
Yes, America was itching to test it on a live population...
Yes, America knew not one, but 2 BOMBS would kill innocent children...
Yes, Americas scientific community was salivating to get their hands on how fallout from "Little Boy" effected the human body...
Yes, America was found to be the real instigator...
No, Japan or any other country has a military base near North America... Yes, America has bases in everyones backyard...
Yes, they are sick and tired of G.I. Joe...
Yes, Japan and China are getting their quiet revenge by manufacturing everything Americans lay their hands on...
Yes, the US world domination scheme is backfiring...
And yes, Americans are still the brutal war mongers of old...

[edit on 8-8-2009 by Level X]

Yes, Level X's sarcasm was detected in his post...
Yes, it amused me and my cat moderately and I laughed...
No, Level X was mistaken in his entirety and approach...
Yes, I will continue to mimic his post because it's fun...
No, I lied, I am tired of mimicking his post and will stop

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by passenger

 

Um, in case you didn't know your history. Japan hoped to sue for peace as they knew they couldn't win.

Your wrong the japenese people knew they lost but the one person that needed to be convinced was the emperor.His generals knew it was over but didnt have the guts to tell the emperor. Untill he decided enough was enough they would have kept fighting the atomic bombs just helped him make that decision alot quicker. Without it there would have had to have been a landing in main land japan and that would have made the rest of the war look like a cake walk the loss of lives would have been massive!

reply to post by Level X


China and the United States are not enemies and will never go to war with each other. Mcartheism is dead there no more fear of those bad communists.In fact there arent any more communists to fight. China learned capitilism has massive benefits and realized it takes money to be a super power and that is truly there goal. Be prepaired ther will be 3 super powers in the next couple of decades India, China and maybe the United States if we can manage to get our act together. And these 3 countries will manipulate the world a has all ways happened when super powers are involved. Main reason that whole new world order thing is a farse. Because as much as people would like to believe you have to realize countries have and will all ways have there own agendas you just have to hope its for the greater good.

reply to post by mrmonsoon


Try reading what I posted. I am NOT saying the Japanese Military is INNOCENT. I am saying the civillians of Japan who had no part in combat are.

If you think they deserve the blame, then I am going to charge you for the death for the hundreds of thousands accidentally killed in America's wars, just because you're an American (I assume you are, please forgive me if you're not). Then Im going to have an A BOMB dropped on you for your savage actions that you had nothing to do with.

If that sounds all right to you, then please sir, step onto the bullseye and wait for the Enola Gay to fly over.

If this were really about stopping their savage actions, then the Americans would of put them on trial for war crimes. But they didn't, did they?

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

 

Actually, bombing civilians wasn't a mistake, and occurred in the First World War with Zeppelins.

More died during the 81 days of fighting on Okinawa than both atomic bombs together killed.

Add them up.

And had we elected to hold back the atomic weapons and invade mainland Japan, if you extrapolate the casualty numbers on Okinawa, then one million Americans, and three to five million Japanese would have become casualties.

So we did the most humane thing, and saved millions of casualties and dead.

Exactly. The civilian population of Okinawa committed suicide by jumping from cliffs into the ocean. Before parents jumped they threw their children from the cliffs. Only after the atomic bombs were dropped was the Emperor shocked into ordering surrender.

Miraj, what you don't get is that the entire nation of Japan was commiting national suicide under the facist warrior code that was Japanese culture at the time. The country and its citizens were told to prepare for the American invasion. civilians were organized, told to prepare to commit suicide attacks like running to an American tank with an explosive charge.
Citizens were sharpening sticks on Imperial orders to fight the Americans when their ammo ran out. Sad. But it's Imperial Japan that brainwashed its people, to suicide, not America. How do you fight an enemy like that? An enemy that will never surrender. Look at the island fighting in the Pacific, you really think American soldiers relished the killing? That Truman would rather have bombed Japan than accepted their surrender?
My father flew 30 combat missions over Germany and Italy with the 15th USAAF in WW2. Do you say me father was a murderer because their bombs killed civilians? He, like millions of others , did what they had to do to stop the killing. In the case of WW2 that was total destruction of the enemy. Sad, but you in your revisionist armchair oh so moral world don't seem to understnd that. There was much soul searching and discussing of the A bomb and strategic and area bombing in general by the Americans and British, these men were not monsters, but those that were tasked with defeating monsters. if you think it was done lightly or cavalierly, you are simply ignorant of history.

upload.wikimedia.org..." target='_blank' class='tabOff'/>

Look up the Japanese Civilian fighting Corps.
Read about how Japans's military counted on 28 million civilian fighters for the invasion. These people were expected to fight to the death.

Originally posted by GorehoundLarry
You're probably the same person who thought Iraq needed to be nuked.

if this is a reply to my post sunshine
i remind you that all i pointed out is:
1:how imoral wars realy are
2:how stupid some poeple are in thinking their are morals in wars

Thats the terrible thing about a total/world war, the whole community is ( socially )mobilized for war..Who you think worked in the weapon plants? ..right, the women..In fact lots of African-Americans moved from the south to northern American cities to work in the industry (also after the war) ...Everybody is committed to the war effort, hence everyone is a target.. I think it is a good thing we all stand still and think about what happened 64 years ago..But really Truman made the right decision imo....Or he and Eisenhower could have kept "Manhatten" secret for the Russians for them being the guinea pigs and avoid the communist expansion ..but i guess intel was already over the place, and the commies had The Bomb much sooner then the Americans expected .What if...





[edit on 8-8-2009 by Foppezao]

reply to post by OldDragger


If your father fired a gun in the civlian world, and on accident it hit a little girl in the head. Do you think they would just say "OH woops, he didn't mean to. It's alright, sad but that's the way it is" ? No they would put him on trial. So if your killed civilians on accident when he bombed targets.. legally I'm sure he's clear. But morally? He's responsible for the lives he took.

But by your logic I might as well just kill someone because their going to die in the end anyways. If they wanted to commit suicide? That's their right to do so. They made it, they weren't forced into it(Unless they were, then it's wrong).

But if you want to assume there would be roaming groups on ninjas out to kill americans? Well you can think that all you want, but I'd be willing to assume that it's far from the truth.

But just let me ask you this. What if your family was bombed while you were out at war, and you came home expecting to see your wife and children, but instead found directions to a funeral home and a coupon for 50 dollars off each coffin. What would you say? Would you say "Oh they would of fought back anyways?" I doubt you would.



Also a later note: The warrior code was by no means facist. Which BS hat did you pull that out of? Or do you just think that's a word that can be randomly applied to make things sound really bad?
[edit on 8-8-2009 by Miraj]

[edit on 8-8-2009 by Miraj]

Hi there...I teach U.S. history and have an advanced degree in Middle East History. I just want to concur with those who have it right. The idea was to shorten the war while saving the most American lives. Yes, we could have done worse, a much larger city or cities like Tokyo. We could have picked an off shore island to show the strength, but I doubt it would have had the desired effect. The Japanese were close to the NAZI's in brutality and fanaticism. President Truman and his staff made the correct choice and had they been able to do it over, they easily would have made it again. It wasn't pay back for Pearl Harbour, it was the best way the United States had of bringing a quick and complete end to the devastating war in the Pacific which Japan initiated.

[edit on 8-8-2009 by Sardot]

Originally posted by Miraj
reply to post by OldDragger

 

If your father fired a gun in the civlian world, and on accident it hit a little girl in the head. Do you think they would just say "OH woops, he didn't mean to. It's alright, sad but that's the way it is" ? No they would put him on trial. So if your killed civilians on accident when he bombed targets.. legally I'm sure he's clear. But morally? He's responsible for the lives he took.

You miss the point entirely, and you miss it I think, purposely.
It wasn't peacetime, your analogy is simply ridiculous. I guess you think it more moral not to have fought since civilians were killed. Great, let Hitler rule the world. Now that's the moral high ground!

But by your logic I might as well just kill someone because their going to die in the end anyways. If they wanted to commit suicide? That's their right to do so. They made it, they weren't forced into it(Unless they were, then it's wrong).

I can't believe anyone would say what you did! it's their RIGHT to commit suicide? An entire nation has the RIGHT to go on a war of conquest, then commit suicde? And I guess it was just tough luck for Americans, mean old USA infringing on their RIGHTS? Unbelievable! you have really jumped the shark with this post!

But if you want to assume there would be roaming groups on ninjas out to kill americans? Well you can think that all you want, but I'd be willing to assume that it's far from the truth.

Roaming bands of ninjas? Where did you get that. guess you can't be bothered to follow the link I posted> It might upset your dogma, uh, I mean high moral understanding.

But just let me ask you this. What if your family was bombed while you were out at war, and you came home expecting to see your wife and children, but instead found directions to a funeral home and a coupon for 50 dollars off each coffin. What would you say? Would you say "Oh they would of fought back anyways?" I doubt you would.

Your statements are ridiculous. i would be heartbroken, Just as EVERY family was> But the ONLY reason 50 MILLION people were killed in that war was Germany and Japan launching a war of military conquest to enslave others and build empires. No other reason.


Also a later note: The warrior code was by no means facist. Which BS hat did you pull that out of? Or do you just think that's a word that can be randomly applied to make things sound really bad?
[edit on 8-8-2009 by Miraj]

In the case of Imperial Japan, the warrior code was facist, it's pupose ONLY to create a nation of killing machines to elevate Divine Japan to master of inferior other peoples. Do you have some kind of admiration for the code that justifies mass murder?
You are a prime example of one who lives in a theoretical world, safe and sound. You apparently cannot imagine a society that is entirely military oriented, whose purpose is to fulfill some psychotic Nationalist dream of destiny, leaving a wake of bodies. Maybe you could have pointed out to Hitler and Tojo how immoral they were. I'm sure they would have listened. it may interest you that I once shared your opinion, then I educated myself on the war and changed my mind. There is nothing more to say to you, you cannot fathom the idea that you are applying some moral standard to a situation where your standards can't apply.

[edit on 8-8-2009 by Miraj]

reply to post by silo13


silo, you sure seem to know a lot to not know a lot.

The Japanese, in accordance with their Constitution do not have a military force.

Mostly on the insistence of the US, they have a ground defense force, a sea defense force, and an air defense force.

Defense. Defense only.

A military is both offensive and defensive. Japan doesn't have a military, just as I said.

Got it?

reply to post by OldDragger


It all comes down to this. I don't actually have a high moral standing. Really. Screw morals. But what is part of my moral standing? Not killing the innocent. That's right up there, but apparently you can't seem to grasp this.

And yes. If someone wants to take their own life? That is their RIGHT to do so. It's illegal to force someone to die, (Murder), but to force them to live? it's their life, their right. It might be a stupid choice but like that, it's their right.


In the case of Imperial Japan, the warrior code was facist, it's pupose ONLY to create a nation of killing machines to elevate Divine Japan to master of inferior other peoples. Do you have some kind of admiration for the code that justifies mass murder?
You are a prime example of one who lives in a theoretical world, safe and sound. You apparently cannot imagine a society that is entirely military oriented, whose purpose is to fulfill some psychotic Nationalist dream of destiny, leaving a wake of bodies. Maybe you could have pointed out to Hitler and Tojo how immoral they were. I'm sure they would have listened. it may interest you that I once shared your opinion, then I educated myself on the war and changed my mind. There is nothing more to say to you, you cannot fathom the idea that you are applying some moral standard to a situation where your standards can't apply.


This has always been the purpose of the warrior code. Kill for the lord you serve under, never fail, and you're unworthy of life if you do. But this has nothing to do with Facism. Facism is simply the merging of corporate and state, which has nothing to do with the warrior code.

And you're entirely wrong. I live in the real world. The real world where it's wrong to kill civlians.

If you examine my posts, you will find I did say Tojo and Hilter were immoral. I said the Japanese military was savage, it did terrble things, I even said I couldnt care if you bombed these people souls into oblivion. But apparently you missed my point that "It's wrong to kill civilians." Obviously, some civilian deaths cannot be avoided in war, but they didn't even bother ijn these cases. Just bombasway, and too bad for the suckers that get hit.

But I hope you realize your arguments allow for the justification of nuking american cities and killing many civilians. In the case of an WW3 - End War scenario. Why? Because we have the armaments to fight back.

So, if such ever happens, and you and I are still here to argue.. I'll gladly tell you "Well they had to, to save lives." But Im sure you would not feel the same way.

reply to post by Miraj


We get it your an idealist thats great unfortunately they have no place in war. The soviets during the cold war had thousands of nuclear missiles pointed at the United States they had major cities targeting they were planning on destroying the population in the event of war. Know why they didn't? We were planning on doing the same thing to them and they knew it. In a war civilians die its one of the horrors of war.Right or wrong is immaterial the only Way to avoid civilian deaths is not fight the war. If you go to war expect collateral damage the nice way of saying civilians die!

reply to post by dragonridr


I'm not even idealist. I'm just pro-not bombing innocent people. If you think that is an "Idealist attitude" then you have a lot of soul searching to do my friend.

I understand that war isn't fair. The cold war was different, there was an immediate threat with their missiles (Although, if I recall their rocket technology wasn't as great as the american's for awhile) That would of been un-avoidable.

But Hiroshima? They weren't targeting nuclear missiles at the US. That's not a good comparison.

reply to post by Miraj


Its not about comparisons at all that wasn't the point. Governments know civilians die in war the cold war was an example of 2 countries specifically targeting the civilians in order to make the cost of war too great.The US government targeting civilians in world war 2 for the same exact reason to make the emperor realize the cost of continued war was too great. It worked japan surrendered and world war 2 drawn to a close. Any country in a war must make sure that the damages inflicted on the other country is too great to continue or wars would never end. Do you have any clue what the Germans went through at the close of world war 2. The Russians were brutal take a look sometime what they did to Berlin. Ever been there beautiful place but ill say its hard to find a building older than 1950.

I don't think America can be blamed, or indeed should be blamed, for dropping the bomb on Japan. You have to remember that the wild and wacky, anything goes, fun loving Japanese people of today are nothing like those crazy Japs who were fighting in the Pacific. Those were people who had no fear. Death meant nothing to them. All they cared about was honour, nothing else mattered. If the Americans had continued the land war in an effort to bring Japan to it's knees and cause them to surrender millions of more Americans would have died and possibly millions of Japanese would have died, possibly by their own hands. Remember they believed in death before dishonour and would have committed suicide as soon as American troops approached. . .
Although looking back on it it may seem to have been cruel to use the atom bomb in reality it saved more lives than it destroyed. And there is another way of looking at it. The fun loving Japanese people we all love and admire today simply wouldn't have existed if that death before dishonour kamikaze mindset crap hadn't been knocked out of them by the dropping of the bomb. . .

Originally posted by Sardot
Hi there...I teach U.S. history and have an advanced degree in Middle East History. I just want to concur with those who have it right. The idea was to shorten the war while saving the most American lives. Yes, we could have done worse, a much larger city or cities like Tokyo. We could have picked an off shore island to show the strength, but I doubt it would have had the desired effect. The Japanese were close to the NAZI's in brutality and fanaticism. President Truman and his staff made the correct choice and had they been able to do it over, they easily would have made it again. It wasn't pay back for Pearl Harbour, it was the best way the United States had of bringing a quick and complete end to the devastating war in the Pacific which Japan initiated.

[edit on 8-8-2009 by Sardot]

Well put, Sardot, succinct and to the point. It's a pleasure getting some historical expert views on this very moralistic, complicated issue such as this. I couldn't have put it better myself.