Jesus died for us because.....

Understanding Jesus' ransom sacrifice.


His death does more than just forgive our sins. His death brings countless blessings for the human race, and for planet earth.



[edit on 7-8-2009 by holywar]

Originally posted by holywar
Understanding Jesus' ransom sacrifice.


His death does more than just forgive our sins. His death brings countless blessings for the human race, and for planet earth.

[edit on 7-8-2009 by holywar]

A dying and resurrected god. How original

Peace,
Daniel

The ransom thing is ridiculous. God has to become Jesus in order to pay his own ransom? As if God couldn't just do the same thing without the sacrifice.

Jesus does what he does in order to bring about understanding/wisdom. You know, a major theme in the bible? Some of the things such as the last supper are directly derived from the OT and what understanding is about.

Proverbs 9
1Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:

Oh, like a carpenter

2She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table.

3She hath sent forth her maidens: she crieth upon the highest places of the city,

4Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,

5Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine which I have mingled.

Hmmm, bread and wine at a furnished table. Sure does sound familiar

6Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

7He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.

8Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

9Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.

10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Ohh, real knowledge of the holy is understanding. Why does Jesus speak in parables?

Matthew 13

10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

17For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Ah, so those who can hear and see are those who understand, and he fulfilled the prophecy in order for you to be able to hear and understand.

And so on.

What you posted is Satanic dribble.

reply to post by badmedia

What you posted is Satanic dribble

no, what I posted is pure biblical TRUTH.

it's "Satanic dribble" for you because you don't understand this truth.


Do you even believe Adam and Eve existed?



[edit on 7-8-2009 by holywar]

reply to post by holywar


I know the father, and he shows me the things you say are foolish. God has to kill himself in order to pay his own ransom? No way would I believe such a thing.

Do you think if Adam or Eve existed is the point of the story?



[edit on 8/7/2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia

God has to become Jesus in order to pay his own ransom?

this statement alone shows how much you DON'T understand the ransom.

God did NOT have to become Jesus. God sacrificed his beloved SON Jesus... not himself.

Remember the story of Abraham and Isaac????? it foreshadowed what God himself would do.



[edit on 7-8-2009 by holywar]

reply to post by holywar


No it doesn't. Abraham doesn't even do it. That was about testing Abraham, and has nothing to do with Jesus. Some even argue that Abraham misunderstood what was meant, and it was supposed to be a symbolic thing.

You are just linking things together when they aren't even related in order to support your own biases.

Isn't it about time you start looking for a real relationship with the father, rather than replacing him with religion, scripture and the foolish dogma of men?

Matthew 9

13But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Sinners to repentance = fix your mistakes.

Hosea 6

6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

7But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.

[edit on 8/7/2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by holywar

 

I know the father, and he shows me the things you say are foolish. God has to kill himself in order to pay his own ransom? No way would I believe such a thing.



[edit on 8/7/2009 by badmedia]

SIGH.... come on badmedia we have spent enough time on these boards that you know that holywar doesn't believe God killed himself she doesn't believe in the Trinity.

But if you deny the ransom sacrifice of the son(Jesus not God) your form of Christianity is fundamentally flawed, and how do I say this, you can say you know God and Jesus all you want, but that one thing proves you really don't, sorry, but it is what it is, and nothing you say or quote will ever change this pure reality.

Well, I will honestly say that I didn't watch the video but I did read the feud that was going on between Holywar and Badmedia.

If I may be so bold to say, don't fight guys. Accept the God of Israel as your God and that He died to forgive us our evil mistakes and desires.

If you read the Bible, any of you remember the winepress of Gethsemane? There is a good metaphor about the winepress and Jesus. Should look that up.

Again if I may be so bold to say, Jesus' blood was the sacrifice. I think you guys are just looking at the fact of Jesus dying and asking the question, "Why would God kill Himself to save so many?" My answer is read the Bible to understand the message. The saving was in the blood of Christ. Remember those covenants in the Old Testament? How they would cut a bull in half and sprinkle the blood? Blood provides us life. What does the blood of God provide? Forgiveness. Sacrifices are hard to acknowledge sometimes but with a few praying minutes and diving deep down within your heart, you will find the answer. Spirit is key. Many awesome messages in that Book. That's why it's by far my favorite read. Have a great day guys and may God Bless you and your families!!!!!

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


I am not a Christian at all, I find salvation can be found in his life, not his death.

I do not know Jesus at all. I have never meet any such person. I only recognize the father I know within him when I read his words. As well as recognizing Jesus describing exactly the events that happened when I came to know the father - which is what got me to look at the bible in the first place. As it felt like nobody understood what I experienced until I read it.

I gave scripture as a means of showing understanding. I showed that the claim holy war made was obviously false. So lets see this scripture that shows it was a ransom.

reply to post by Water-tastes-good


Jesus was about mercy, rather than sacrifice. He did what he did so he could bring understanding to the people, and he was killed for it. He "sacrifices" himself in this way, but his is not a "sacrifice" in the manner of ritual and so forth as Christianity points it as.

You take from the tree of knowledge to know both good and evil, and so you aer born into this world ignorant. So we are subjected to the evils of this world in order to learn. We are then expected to gain understanding, and then make the correct choice(wisdom) and keep the commandments and such.

The reason for the commandments are very logical and have a purpose beyond because the father says so. If you are unable to live by the commandments, then you are unable to live in a society that does not have evil. Because you will have evil yourself and make such a society impossible.

The commandments were given, but they were manipulated in meaning and so forth. The people were not able to understand them properly, they became hypocrites. They believed it was justified to kill the man who sinned, and they forgot that vengeance is mine sayeth the lord.

Thus Jesus comes to provide an example of how to follow the commandments, which he does by fulfilling them. So that by his example one could see how to live properly, in order to return back into the garden/heaven. It is by the understanding he provides that one can follow the commandments(Psalm 111:10).

He is murdered for doing so by the powers of this world, so that those powers could keep that power. He threatened their power because of what he showed and taught people. He knew it would happen, he was without sin and did not have to be taught the lesson we are here for - that is his grace.

So you were removed and put here because you have evil, and the only way back out is to repent for sins(fix mistakes), which you have an example of to follow, in order to be allowed back into that society without evil.

To turn that into being about the sacrifice of blood, is to say that the truth was sacrificed so that the the lie of this world may live. And the lie of this world has lived and continues to live. And it will live until the truth returns to the people, and then there is a day when rather than being ruled by manipulation and fear, mankind will take truth(jesus) as the authority instead.

There is but 1 truth authority and you will not find it anywhere except from within. All these false authorities that tell men to accept these stories built on sacrifice and suffering rather than mercy will be exposed for the Satantic things they are.

It's not all doom and gloom though, quite the opposite.

I will not compromise, only understanding changes me.


[edit on 8/8/2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by Water-tastes-good

 

Jesus was about mercy, rather than sacrifice. He did what he did so he could bring understanding to the people, and he was killed for it. He "sacrifices" himself in this way, but his is not a "sacrifice" in the manner of ritual and so forth as Christianity points it as.

Understood. He taught us how to learn. How to live. How to love. You also may be right about the sacrifice being not an actual sacrifice, but Jesus' death meant something. I know that for sure. The sacrifices God asked for in the Old Testament were atoned for something. I believe Jesus is God. God is Jesus. It seemed to go together and explain why we are forgiven. Also it would explain the blood. I take it you look at a sacrifice as horrific or not very valid in the way of meaning something?

You take from the tree of knowledge to know both good and evil, and so you aer born into this world ignorant. So we are subjected to the evils of this world in order to learn. We are then expected to gain understanding, and then make the correct choice(wisdom) and keep the commandments and such.

We are not born into this world ignorant. Adam and Eve had the knowledge of God. Hence Satan's conversation with Eve before taking the apple. If you subject that out as being born ignorant then I agree with your statement then. The rest I totally agree with.

The reason for the commandments are very logical and have a purpose beyond because the father says so. If you are unable to live by the commandments, then you are unable to live in a society that does not have evil. Because you will have evil yourself and make such a society impossible.

Agreed.

The commandments were given, but they were manipulated in meaning and so forth. The people were not able to understand them properly, they became hypocrites. They believed it was justified to kill the man who sinned, and they forgot that vengeance is mine sayeth the lord.

Understand your meaning but the Lord told them to kill based on someone not obeying His laws. (The man who was stoned because of picking up wood on the Sabbath) Also when he would send plagues on the people and the sin offering. Customs back then are very interesting lol.



[edit on 8-8-2009 by Water-tastes-good]

[edit on 8-8-2009 by Water-tastes-good]

Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by Water-tastes-good

 

Thus Jesus comes to provide an example of how to follow the commandments, which he does by fulfilling them. So that by his example one could see how to live properly, in order to return back into the garden/heaven. It is by the understanding he provides that one can follow the commandments(Psalm 111:10).

Understand and I agree with this paragraph as well. When He is in the Old Testament, (fore I believe He is God in the flesh) He taught us how to obey. In the New Testament He comes in the form of man to show us how to treat one another and live according to the ways of the Father.

He is murdered for doing so by the powers of this world, so that those powers could keep that power. He threatened their power because of what he showed and taught people. He knew it would happen, he was without sin and did not have to be taught the lesson we are here for - that is his grace.

Alright if you so would, please expand on your "powers could keep that power" statement. The rest I agree with.

So you were removed and put here because you have evil, and the only way back out is to repent for sins(fix mistakes), which you have an example of to follow, in order to be allowed back into that society without evil.

Alright so let me understand here. I was going to be in heaven yet I was kicked out because of me having evil. Hence the apple. The only way for me to get back would be to repent and fix my mistakes which Jesus taught for me to follow in His path/footsteps. Only then would I be able to enter heaven finally. I guess that's one way of looking at it.

To turn that into being about the sacrifice of blood, is to say that the truth was sacrificed so that the the lie of this world may live. And the lie of this world has lived and continues to live. And it will live until the truth returns to the people, and then there is a day when rather than being ruled by manipulation and fear, mankind will take truth(jesus) as the authority instead.

Alright so do you know when humanity will receive this truth your talking about? If Jesus blood didn't forgive us our wrongdoings, what would then be the point of the message? We are automatically forgiven when asked? When repented? I guess I have to disagree here. Don't be angry with me. Then there would have been all those countless pages of offerings that God asked just for the fun of it.

There is but 1 truth authority and you will not find it anywhere except from within. All these false authorities that tell men to accept these stories built on sacrifice and suffering rather than mercy will be exposed for the Satantic things they are.

Hmm, thanks for shedding some light on this. I didn't mean Jesus' suffering was meant as a bad thing. It proved how much He loved us. Hence John 3:16

It's not all doom and gloom though, quite the opposite.

I agree.

I will not compromise, only understanding changes me.

Okie dokie then.


[edit on 8/8/2009 by badmedia]

[edit on 8-8-2009 by Water-tastes-good]

reply to post by badmedia

I am not a Christian at all, I find salvation can be found in his life, not his death. I do not know Jesus at all.

Then you have created your own fantasy belief structure, that's cool Jedism is a religion too now.
www.jedichurch.org...

Anyways you want scriptures here they are....

Act 4:12

No one else can save us. Indeed, we can be saved only by the power of the one named Jesus and not by any other person."

Matthew 1:21

She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

1 Timothy 2:5

5For there [is only] one God, and [only] one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 Who gave Himself as a ransom for all [people, a fact that was] attested to at the right and proper time.

Matthew 20:28

Just as the Son of Man came not to be waited on but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many [the price paid to set them free].

Matthew 26:28

This is my blood, the blood of the promise. It is poured out for many people so that sins are forgiven.

Hebrews 9:22

22[In fact] under the Law almost everything is purified by means of blood, and without the shedding of blood there is neither release from sin and its guilt nor the remission of the due and merited punishment for sins.

Romans 6:10

10When Christ died, he died for sin once and for all. But now he is alive, and he lives only for God.

Hebrew 2:17

17He had to be one of us, so that he could serve God as our merciful and faithful high priest and sacrifice himself for the forgiveness of our sins.

You always seem to ignore scripture if it doesn't jive with you belief structure, will you again disagree with the principle of the ransom sacrifice, that is clearly stated in the bible?

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
Then you have created your own fantasy belief structure, that's cool Jedism is a religion too now.
www.jedichurch.org...

Anyways you want scriptures here they are....

You always seem to ignore scripture if it doesn't jive with you belief structure, will you again disagree with the principle of the ransom sacrifice, that is clearly stated in the bible?

Those scriptures say he sacrificed himself in order to save people and so forth. That is a bit different than believing it was his actual death that saves people which is how you guys are presenting things. You believe it was his death that saves you, rather than what he did knowing he would die for it, and it's not only wrong, it's just plain Satanic.

As for telling me I have a fantasy religion, yeah sure. I guess that is why I had my own vision with the father, and I guess that is why I knew the path and the things Jesus said before I even knew they were in the bible.

I guess that is how I was able to recognize the father and the teachings I received from the father in Jesus. I guess that is why Jesus describes my experience exactly in John 14.

You can believe what you want, but you telling me such a thing, vs the manner in which I came across the understanding and so forth tells me otherwise, and in huge ways. You only know what you know by repeating the bible. I didn't learn what I know from the bible at all, but I sure as heck can find where the bible repeats my understanding no problem.

In all honesty, you should not even be surprised that I show Christianity to be the synagogue of Satan.

Originally posted by Water-tastes-good
Understood. He taught us how to learn. How to live. How to love. You also may be right about the sacrifice being not an actual sacrifice, but Jesus' death meant something. I know that for sure. The sacrifices God asked for in the Old Testament were atoned for something. I believe Jesus is God. God is Jesus. It seemed to go together and explain why we are forgiven. Also it would explain the blood. I take it you look at a sacrifice as horrific or not very valid in the way of meaning something?

In his death he shows that you are never justified in taking up evil. All these "just wars" and such are just manipulations to get people to walk the broad path. They make you fear for your life, and then in return the people take up the evil way to save themselves. He tells people such is an error, and then he leads by example. It is better to die than to take up the evil way in order to save yourself, because as you commit to that broad path, you actually condemn yourself.

Matthew 10

28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

...

39He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

His sacrifice is horrific, and it is the sins of man which kills him. But he does what he does anyway knowing the consequences of those actions in order to show people the correct way. It is that Christianity turns all the focus from his life to his death that I find Satanic. You are just as much god as Jesus was as well, but they make it out to be he is, and so you are not(so that people will not realize the father within them, and they will accept the anti-christ). That is a lie. Jesus is your brother, and all the things he did you can also do. The difference is - he knew it.

We are not born into this world ignorant. Adam and Eve had the knowledge of God. Hence Satan's conversation with Eve before taking the apple. If you subject that out as being born ignorant then I agree with your statement then. The rest I totally agree with.

But that was before they ate the "apple". Once they ate the apple, they realized they were naked, and so forth. In order for people to learn the lesson of good and evil, they have to become ignorant of good, because if they knew the good from the start they would outright reject evil just as Jesus did.

So you are born poor in spirit and without understanding. If you look deeply, you will find that all people are given the truth before the end, and most of the people will then accept and live by that truth etc. Where as, they would never go from good to evil and so forth.

Understand your meaning but the Lord told them to kill based on someone not obeying His laws. (The man who was stoned because of picking up wood on the Sabbath) Also when he would send plagues on the people and the sin offering. Customs back then are very interesting lol.

If such were actually the case, then Jesus would have done so as well. That he didn't, and did the opposite shows that those laws were misunderstood. Jesus fulfills the laws in order to bring understanding of them, and also in the process seperates mans laws from the laws of the father.



[edit on 8/8/2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia


I know that your post was intended for Blue_Jay33, but let me just say I think our conversation is done. We won't get anywhere. I guess in my opinion, I don't fully agree with your understanding about Christianity being Satanistic. I also don't agree with your interpretation about the sacrifice Jesus made but that is okay. In the end, we both acknowledge that the God of Israel is the Lord our God. So there would be no point in understanding what you mean. I'm a Christian and I am not Satanic. I call myself Christian because that is what I most agree with and that helps me get closer to God. I take the death of Jesus very seriously. I know what He did and what He died for. He didn't choose when He was to die but He knew what His mission was on Planet Earth. Take your vision for what you will, I have no doubt you may have had one, but don't tell me you understood what was going on before you read the Bible. That's like drawing an "advance to Boardwalk" card. Skipping the entire board and landing on the best piece. In life, it doesn't happen like that. No one gets ahead of another. Anyway, thanks for the conversation and appreciate your responses. Have a great day and may God Bless you and your family. You too Blue_Jay33.

[edit on 8-8-2009 by Water-tastes-good]

Originally posted by badmedia
In his death he shows that you are never justified in taking up evil. All these "just wars" and such are just manipulations to get people to walk the broad path. They make you fear for your life, and then in return the people take up the evil way to save themselves. He tells people such is an error, and then he leads by example. It is better to die than to take up the evil way in order to save yourself, because as you commit to that broad path, you actually condemn yourself.

I understand what you are saying but I disagree with the first sentence.

Matthew 10

28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

...

39He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

His sacrifice is horrific, and it is the sins of man which kills him. But he does what he does anyway knowing the consequences of those actions in order to show people the correct way. It is that Christianity turns all the focus from his life to his death that I find Satanic. You are just as much god as Jesus was as well, but they make it out to be he is, and so you are not(so that people will not realize the father within them, and they will accept the anti-christ). That is a lie. Jesus is your brother, and all the things he did you can also do. The difference is - he knew it.

I agree His sacrifice was horrific, but, I totally disagree with...

"You are just as much god as Jesus was as well, but they make it out to be he is, and so you are not(so that people will not realize the father within them, and they will accept the anti-christ)."

Like I said before, Jesus IS God in my opinion. Not my brother. And I am not God for He is righteous and I am a sinner.

But that was before they ate the "apple". Once they ate the apple, they realized they were naked, and so forth. In order for people to learn the lesson of good and evil, they have to become ignorant of good, because if they knew the good from the start they would outright reject evil just as Jesus did.

I wouldn't use the term "ignorant" but understand. Even though they mean the same, understand sounds better to me. With good there is bad correct, but even them choosing the tree when they didn't know evil, they had free-will. They had free-will but didn't know sin. Jesus rejected evil because He is God in the flesh. God is 100% good. God doesn't sin.

So you are born poor in spirit and without understanding. If you look deeply, you will find that all people are given the truth before the end, and most of the people will then accept and live by that truth etc. Where as, they would never go from good to evil and so forth.

So the truth your saying is good and evil. Reject one, take the other? Again I disagree. Then there would have been no point for people mocking Christians. Not believing and being good doesn't fly with me. No offense.

If such were actually the case, then Jesus would have done so as well. That he didn't, and did the opposite shows that those laws were misunderstood. Jesus fulfills the laws in order to bring understanding of them, and also in the process seperates mans laws from the laws of the father.

The laws were not misunderstood. It's like dye in water. Once you contaminate clear water with red dye, all the water becomes red. You contaminate Israelites by not punishing, then they will walk all over and go corrupt not following God's plan. Hence Him being angry and spreading disease because they didn't take His word for things. Jesus comes and teaches us how to behave to our fellow man. How to be a human. First obey your parents. God's discipline. Then they provide for you. The promised land. You learn through school and when you're older, they send you off to college. You experience life. And when you need them most, they tell you how to overcome an obstacle or situation through wisdom. That was what Jesus did. The father came in the form of man to teach us how to be human and die for our sins. We have to suffer the consequences of our actions correct, but God loved us so much that He paid the price FOR us. Understand? That is not Satanic. That is LOVE. He went through the pain that we as humanity should have endured. He wasn't murdered just for the fun of the sinners. Not only did he take our pain, He gave us everlasting forgiveness. That is not Satanic. This is like me running in front of a car to push a little girl out of the way so she doesn't die. I died for her. I LOVED her that much to die for her. That does not make her Satanic. Hence, nothing is Satanic about the sacrifice. It would be an insult to Jesus if we did not acknowledge that. We clear?



[edit on 8-8-2009 by Water-tastes-good]

[edit on 8-8-2009 by Water-tastes-good]

Originally posted by Water-tastes-good
Understand and I agree with this paragraph as well. When He is in the Old Testament, (fore I believe He is God in the flesh) He taught us how to obey. In the New Testament He comes in the form of man to show us how to treat one another and live according to the ways of the Father.

Which is needed because the people did not understand at all, outside those brave enough to question and seek out the Lord - of which the pharisees and such would tell people is impossible, and that only the leaders were capable of such things(lie).

The father doesn't give you bible verses at all. Instead he just gives you the understandings themselves directly. This is easiest to show with Math. The bible and men can only express the understanding. 1+1=2. But that is not how the father gives. The father will just give you the understanding directly, and then you will know from that understanding that 1+1=2 and so forth.

When I had my vision with the father, he never mentioned the bible to me, never mentioned Jesus to me. He instead gave me understanding of the path/way and why etc. I also knew right away that the father was within and such at that moment - and that was the first things out of my mouth after the vision. It is based on that understanding that the father gives me that I recognize Jesus and the bible. I was floored when I read Jesus after that, I was looking at a perfect example of the understanding I received. Thus I do not know Jesus, but I do recognize the father within him.

Paul is a false prophet. Where as I see Jesus doing all that I am shown is right, Paul is the opposite. Paul does everything I was shown not to do. Christianity is actually based on Paul, rather than Jesus. Paul contradicts Jesus as well as my understanding pretty constantly, and is a wolf in sheep clothing, a politician and a deceiver who promises false gifts.

Alright if you so would, please expand on your "powers could keep that power" statement. The rest I agree with.

All the things Jesus dealt with still exist. The names are different, but the functions themselves continue on. A church is just a synagogue. Pharisees are just religious leaders. This why you have to look at their fruits, rather than what name they do things in(Matthew 7). They did it in the name of God in judiasm, they do it in the name of Jesus in Christianity. They do it in the name of Allah in Islam, and so forth.

When you read all that Jesus says of the Pharisees, compare it with Christiantiy and the church, and you will see the same functions. People are replacing the relationship with the father in exchange for scripture and religion.

Alright so let me understand here. I was going to be in heaven yet I was kicked out because of me having evil. Hence the apple. The only way for me to get back would be to repent and fix my mistakes which Jesus taught for me to follow in His path/footsteps. Only then would I be able to enter heaven finally. I guess that's one way of looking at it.

You could just be "good" by your very nature. If you were, then you could be in heaven, as you would not do evil. This would be the state pre-apple. But now you have taken from the apple, to gain knowledge and understanding. So you must make the correct choice(wisdom) based on that understanding and knowledge. This is why in the OT, rather than saying Jesus, it will say that understanding and wisdom is that which guides men back to the highest places(proverbs 8, 9 many others).

Think of it in terms of understanding the difference between hot and cold water. Now, you can by default be a certain temperature. But you will have no understanding of what it meant to be hot or cold. Only by experiencing both of them and feelign/seeing the difference in them can you gain knowledge of what those things mean. Same thing with the apple, thus the tree of "knowledge". The events of revelation and this world will be what shows you those differences and what allows you to see for yourself and gives you that wisdom.

Now, some like to think they can just not try to learn these lessons and so forth, but it's a bit late for that. To remain ignorant once here is in error. Thus why the bible says go in the way of understanding. It is Satanic that people want to you to remain ignorant now, because then you will follow their way. Big difference than when they were ignorant and only good, and followed the father.

Alright so do you know when humanity will receive this truth your talking about? If Jesus blood didn't forgive us our wrongdoings, what would then be the point of the message? We are automatically forgiven when asked? When repented? I guess I have to disagree here. Don't be angry with me. Then there would have been all those countless pages of offerings that God asked just for the fun of it.

Wish I knew, but I don't. My understanding is not based on faith, however this is one of those areas where I have faith that one day such will happen, just as we have faith that the sun will rise the next day.

The point in his message is understanding. His blood and flesh such is symbolic of the bread and wine of the last supper, and that of what wisdom gives in Proverbs 9. He is like the physical manifestation of understanding and wisdom.

You do not actually have to verbally ask for forgiveness at all, but of course it's not going to hurt. So if it makes you feel better, then go right ahead. But realize that if you continue to do that which you asked for forgiveness, you didn't really ask for forgiveness, you asked for a blind eye.

For example, a man cheats on his wife. Gets caught and he asks for forgiveness and says he is sorry for what he has done. But then after he goes and does it again. He isn't sorry for what he has done, he is sorry he got caught, and sorry that he has to face the consequences. As such, he never asked for forgiveness, he asked for a blind eye. He did not fix his mistakes or change his way.

Likewise, lets take that same man. He cheats on his wife. After, he is genuinely sorry for his actions, and he didn't even get caught. He never does them again. This man is the man who was truly sorry for their actions. Because of that, he doesn't just ask for a blind eye, he fixes his mistakes and changes his way. Because he has repented for his sin.

Those who are able to forgive sin with the holy spirit do not just say - oh you are forgiven. Not at all. The holy spirit gives understanding, and so those who are able to forgive sin are able to show that person the understanding of why what they did was a sin, and then also the understanding needed to correct and fix that mistake.

I would not get angry just because you disagree with me. It is very frustrating when you are able to see something, and no matter what you do someone else is unable to see and such. But disagreement is healthly, debate and discussion like this is healthy.

The truth church is built within you. And it is built on understanding and wisdom. Jesus is a carpenter because he helps you build this church by his example and teachings. When we debate and discuss these things, we are building our churches. Thus when 2 or more people are discussing Jesus, he will be among them - not to be confused with a preacher/authority figure telling you what to accept.

I am more offended if someone disagrees with me and does not say so. To me, it means you thought I was not worthy enough for the honest opinion. Never angry. Plus, there are many ways to express the same understanding. This is why so many religions in the world. Just different expressions of the same understanding in most cases. But it is those between those religions who only focus on the literal rather than the understanding who fight with each other, as they only accept and are deceived. But those with real understanding see the other expressions, and recognize them, which is how I recognized Jesus.

Hmm, thanks for shedding some light on this. I didn't mean Jesus' suffering was meant as a bad thing. It proved how much He loved us. Hence John 3:16

Yes, but what does it mean to believe in him? To accept his name? To accept he did those things?

John 14

12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15If ye love me, keep my commandments.

What does it mean in his name there? "Jesus"? Nay. If I ask Jesus to kill my brother, will it be done? No. It means what you ask for in seeking the truth, the way and the light. If you ask in the name of those things, then it will be done.

It was those things in which I was searching for when I found the father.

If I give a cat a bowl of milk, do I expect the cat to drink the milk, or to worship the bowl that brought the milk? What would one think if they gave the cat a bowl of milk and instead of drinking it worshiped the bowl? Silly cat, do not worship the bowl, drink the milk the bowl has brought for you. That is the purpose of the bowl in the first place.

But I see many cats who worship the bowl rather than drink the milk. I see cats who guard the milk and refuse them access to the milk, while telling them to worship the bowl and someday they might can taste the milk, while selling them some of their milk on the side. In doing so, they have created a replacement for the milk.

And people replace a relationship with the father with scripture and religion. Not that scripture is bad, just that it is not in it's proper place.

reply to post by Water-tastes-good


No, you are not satanic and neither is she. But you are deceived on things. You are blessed, and please don't think I am trying to tell you otherwise. As you have not been born again, you are just poor in spirit and that is perfectly fine.

It is those who deceive who are in the wrong and bear the burden. I see many Christians with good hearts, and carry no ill-will towards them. I do not look at the world as going to hell at all, the father is not going to allow such a low success rate.

You have no idea what I have been through in my life to say I just landed on boardwalk. None at all. That is hardly the case at all, I didn't find the father until I was 30 years old, and that was only a few years ago.

What you are really saying is that you can't know the father without "Jesus".

John 14

24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Obviously, that is not the case.

The father doesn't need religion.

As for not realizing the father within in you, and that you are a son of god and Jesus is your brother:

John 14: 20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

When I had my vision that was the first thing out of my mouth. Only instead I said - I am god, and I am arguing with myself(you, Blue Jay, everyone). I recognized and found the father within me.

As for the rest, since you say you no longer wish to continue, I will leave you with this:

Psalm 82

1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

2How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

You're already blessed, so I'll leave it at that. Such will come in due time.

Matthew 7

28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

[edit on 8/8/2009 by badmedia]