64 Years ago, Yesterday... (Warning some graphic material)

To the OP: If you think the United States was cruel ask the China/Philipines and not to mention our own troops than lived thru a death march. The Japanese were more brutal than anything we could ever think of. I gotta tell ya, your noise is misplaced...I don't mind a thread leading to Iran and the discussion there...but PAAAAAAHLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEZE! JAPAN????? How old are you???? If you were to study history for the next century you would never know the truth because it's not taught anymore. I grew up in the 50-60's...we had a real education...I'd bet you couldn't even name your own Senator or Congressman.

Further, I noticed in this thread about the Former President GWB enhancing our Nukes? I read all the time and I gotta tell ya.......I don't buy it. Fact is I read that just cleaning them up was mind boggling to this generation because all the old guys had retired or died. There are some interesting materials that you just can't pull off the shelf....(fact is I believe I read it here)......

Let's hear more about Iran and how we can avoid any nukes there k?

Let this one die.

Enigma


spell edit...so I can't spell I'm old...

"DON'T TREAD ON ME"

[edit on 8/7/2009 by enigmalone]

[edit on 8/7/2009 by enigmalone]

I want to ask this question and post a hypothetical situation to maybe give some perspective.

Lets say America is at war, and we are losing, doesn't matter how we got there, but the point is we face invasion on all fronts, our allies are gone. If we lose we lose everything that makes America what it is, our way of lives will be gone, we will be putting ourselves at the mercy of an enemy we provoked, we will be putting our children and wives in the hands of this enemy.

What would you do in that situation, I know for myself what I would do, I wouldn't care where or how but I would fight, I would fight with everything I had. Every city would be a combat zone. How many of you would stand by and let this enemy conquer us? really think about that, and you might find yourself in the situation that the Japanese did.

I know that even if this enemy started nuking our cities many of us would still find a way to fight, some of you out there would probably ignore the presidents surrender to this enemy and still fight.

So you tell me if it was called for to drop the bomb? you tell me if it helped prevent the type of invasion that would of left both sides with a lot more dead?

reply to post by Exuberant1


the vid dated 10/16/06 Well I'd guess that was some liberal rubbish(as GWB didn't start that scene and we now have a Liberal/socialist in the oval office). Wast of time posting that...NEXT!

E

reply to post by silo13


We are all friends here. If the Germans had made it a condition that Adolph Hitler be allowed to stay in power, would the Allied nations have said Yes, you keep your Fuhrer and we will negotiate an end to the war?

[edit on 7-8-2009 by Oatmeal]

reply to post by BluegrassRevolutionary
Good points, I agree - as far as the soldiers are concerend.

Let’s remember though, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not military sites. Civilians outnumbered soldiers by 5 and 6 innocents for every soldier.

Now in saying this, I have to admit that the accounts of suicidal Japanese civilians could have been nothing more than government propaganda. However, knowing the amount of resistance shown by the Japanese soldiers in places like Iwo Jima, I kind of doubt it.

And though I do understand your point, and appreciate it, take a look again at the quote above.

‘The resistance shown by Japanese Soldiers...’ - I agree, they would have died rather than give up.

But that’s the soldiers.

I do not believe mothers and children would have, given the option.

peace

This is purely revisionist history and each side will always be at fault and labeled as the commiter of the greater atrocities, depending on who you ask and to which side they owe allegiance.

I say each nation has plenty of guilt and blame to go around.

Yes, dropping two atomic bombs was the be all and end all of a long, violent and tragic conflict. These were different times, the world had been at war for so long and so many lives had been already lost. Each side was weary and tired from fighting and killing, yet neither were willing to concede defeat.

In hind sight perhaps a case can be made that American military commanders acted too swiftly or too harshly by dropping atomic bombs upon Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Could they have waited? Possibly. Would there have been an absolute surrender by the Japanese? Not likely. Would hundreds of thousands of American fighting men have died should they have attempted a land invasion of the Japanese islands? Most certainly.

But just as America is to blame for such swift and horrific actions undertaken to end the war, so too are the Japanese for their actions during and before the war. Neighboring countries invaded and exploited, innocent civillians slaughtered en masse, thousands of Chinese and SE Asian families torn apart, the men butchered by the Imperialist Japanese, the women raped and abused, the children displaced. Not to mention the horrors of the Japanese concentration camps and the allied soldiers who were starved, tortured and worked to death in labor camps and on railroads throughout Asia.

The Japanese military fought to the death, tooth and nail, until the last man was gone. They would not have surrendered quietly. The judgement call by Truman to use nuclear weaponry can and will be debated for years to come by armchair generals and make believe strategists who will pretend to know the difficulty of such a decision. But the fact remains, dropping those bombs saved thousands of lives, both American, Allied and Japanese, and brought to an end a long and brutal war that was filled with horrors, atrocities and mistakes.

To villainize and criminalize only the American actions during the final stage of the war is not only unjust and unfair but ignorant, as Fat Man and Little Boy were a means to an end in a long and brutal conflict in which countless crimes and atrocities were commited on all sides.

Just my $0.02

US Responses to Dropping the Bomb

"...the greatest thing in history."
- Harry S. Truman
President of the United States during the Atomic Bombing

"It always appeared to us that, atomic bomb or no atomic bomb, the Japanese were already on the verge of collapse."
- General Henry H. "Hap" Arnold
Commanding General of the U.S. Army
Air Forces Under President Truman

"I had been conscious of depression and so I voiced to (Sec. Of War Stimson) my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at this very moment, seeking a way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face.' "
- General Dwight D. Eisenhower

"Japan was at the moment seeking some way to surrender with minimum loss of 'face'. It wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."
- General Dwight D. Eisenhower

"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was taught not to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying woman and children."
- Admiral William D. Leahy
Former Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

"I am absolutely convinced that had we said they could keep the emperor, together with the threat of an atomic bomb, they would have accepted, and we would never have had to drop the bomb."
- John McCloy

"P.M. [Churchill] & I ate alone. Discussed Manhattan (it is a success). Decided to tell Stalin about it. Stalin had told P.M. of telegram from Jap Emperor asking for peace."
- President Harry S. Truman
Diary Entry, July 18, 1945

"Some of my conclusions may invoke scorn and even ridicule.

"For example, I offer my belief that the existence of the first atomic bombs may have prolonged -- rather than shortened - World War II by influencing Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson and President Harry S. Truman to ignore an opportunity to negotiate a surrender that would have ended the killing in the Pacific in May or June of 1945.

"And I have come to view the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings that August as an American tragedy that should be viewed as a moral atrocity."
- Stewart L. Udall
US Congressman and
Author of "Myths of August"

"Certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."
- U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey's 1946 Study

"Careful scholarly treatment of the records and manuscripts opened over the past few years has greatly enhanced our understanding of why Truman administration used atomic weapons against Japan. Experts continue to disagree on some issues, but critical questions have been answered. The consensus among scholars is the that the bomb was not needed to avoid an invasion of Japan. It is clear that alternatives to the bomb existed and that Truman and his advisers knew it.
- J. Samuel Walker
Chief Historian
U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission

reply to post by silo13


The nature of the conflict was so horrendous that "Absolute Surrender" Was the only way it was going to end. This is not the first time I've evaluated the situation. Trust me there are many Opinions on the topic. Mostly written many years if not decades after the facts.


That didnt hurt a bit.




[edit on 7-8-2009 by SLAYER69]

reply to post by benrl



It was indeed a said day we dropped the atom bomb, BUT........you have to know that we put ALL OUR FOES ON NOTICE. Yes, we made mistakes...but we also won and saved 100's of thousands if not millions.

The Soviet Union was already enslaving most of eastern Europe and had eyes on Japan and the surrounding area. Stalin was moving in.


I'd fight till my last breath...

Have you ever seen the old movie "RED DAWN"? kool old flick...

reply to post by benrl

So you tell me if it was called for to drop the bomb? you tell me if it helped prevent the type of invasion that would of left both sides with a lot more dead?

After the second bomb, the Japanese surrendered. American lives saved.

reply to post by SLAYER69


I somehow knew a Marine was onboard!

first in....last out...


Thanks for your service,

Enigma

reply to post by enigmalone

I grew up in the 50-60's...we had a real education...I'd bet you couldn't even name your own Senator or Congressman.

Because you are older than I am, but not by as much as you might think, I will respect your views.

I'm sorry you can't do the same for mine without the personal insults.

By the way. I'm not an American. lol

And regardless of what you think about education, you're right, there is more history ‘out there’ about this issue than is taught in your schools - and a good lot of it supports my opinion.

peace

reply to post by benrl

Benrl -
Extremely good insightful points.

Thank you.

You’ve given me something to think about - though I doubt very much I will change my mind, but at least it’s open, my mind that is.






[edit on 7-8-2009 by silo13]

That is my view too, I can understand and respect the Japanese of that time, as I know if my country was at war no matter how we got there and if enemy soldiers stepped on U.S. soil I would be there fighting to my last breath and if the choice was mine the enemy would get to take the U.S. only at the highest of cost.

I honestly think in that situation it would take a hell of a lot more than just two cities nuked to stop us from fighting to defend our country.

reply to post by muddyhoop

US Responses to Dropping the Bomb

Thanks for your reply.
I was going to post some out-takes of Truman's diary, but, you've covered enough so far, no need, for now, to get repetitious.
Thanks again.
peace

reply to post by Oatmeal


I honestly think we saved Japanese lives too, not just American.

Wow, its been a year already.

I remember writing a thread very similar.

www.abovetopsecret.com...


RIP all ye who fell during WW2.

Originally posted by silo13
reply to post by enigmalone

 

I grew up in the 50-60's...we had a real education...I'd bet you couldn't even name your own Senator or Congressman.

Because you are older than I am, but not by as much as you might think, I will respect your views.

I'm sorry you can't do the same for mine without the personal insults.

By the way. I'm not an American. lol

And regardless of what you think about education, you're right, there is more history ‘out there’ about this issue than is taught in your schools - and a good lot of it supports my opinion.

peace

It wasn't my intent to "insult"...also I guessed you were not of my country.

I still have to say based on postings in your own thread you are DEAD WRONG. I am sorry it was my country that was the only and the first, but you are being silly if you believe others were close.

It should be apparent that not once since then has there been a exchange.......I do believe we made it clear it was not a acceptable approach to the "issue"? so...your conciense and your countryman can be free of guilt but many here will not be.


Thank us for something if not probably saving your country at one time or another.

Enjoy


E

reply to post by BlackOps719

I say each nation has plenty of guilt and blame to go around.

That’s a given. yes.

Yes, dropping two atomic bombs was the be all and end all of a long, violent and tragic conflict. These were different times, the world had been at war for so long and so many lives had been already lost. Each side was weary and tired from fighting and killing, yet neither were willing to concede defeat.

In your opinion.
As for me there exists more than enough facts for me to come to the conclusion Japan was ready to accept defeat within reason.

In hind sight perhaps a case can be made that American military commanders acted too swiftly or too harshly by dropping atomic bombs upon Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Could they have waited? Possibly.

Exactly.

But just as America is to blame for such swift and horrific actions undertaken to end the war, so too are the Japanese for their actions during and before the war. Neighboring countries invaded and exploited, innocent civillians slaughtered en masse, thousands of Chinese and SE Asian families torn apart, the men butchered by the Imperialist Japanese, the women raped and abused, the children displaced. Not to mention the horrors of the Japanese concentration camps and the allied soldiers who were starved, tortured and worked to death in labor camps and on railroads throughout Asia.

Yes, I agree - atrocities happen in war, and as you stated before, on both sides. Both. But that does not justify, in my mind, bombing a country, not once, but twice, and the target? Areas that contained civilians that outnumbered soldiers 5 and 6 to one. Truman even stated he didn’t want women and children targeted.

If nothing else, wasn't once enough?

To villainies and criminalize only the American actions during the final stage of the war is not only unjust and unfair but ignorant,

Since I never gave or posted my opinion on the atrocities committed by the Japanese I would appreciate you reigning back your *ignorant* title for me, until I do. If it’s your opinion, say so, but it’s out of line to make flat judges statements in assuming I would not paint Japan with the same *villain* brush as I do any participants in war.

...as Fat Man and Little Boy were a means to an end in a long and brutal conflict in which countless crimes and atrocities were commited on all sides.

Yes it did end the war. I’ll give it that...

peace

Originally posted by benrl
reply to post by Oatmeal

 

I honestly think we saved Japanese lives too, not just American.

People forget about that.

Yes lives on both sides were saved. I know how that might sound odd but it's true the Japanese would not have surrendered and would have fought on to the bitter end.

I've read the estimates were as high as around 1.2 to 1.5 millions Japanese and around another 500.000 Americans would have died with the extended fighting.

[edit on 7-8-2009 by SLAYER69]