64 Years ago, Yesterday... (Warning some graphic material)

Originally posted by ofhumandescent

On those two days humanity crossed a very serious line. He used two atomic bombs to destroy on a massive scale human life.

We as a species crossed a line / went beyond a point of no return.

Up until August 6th and 9th that line had not been crossed.

But one thing to remember, there were no lines just yet. Those two nukes actually created the lines, and so the world now has lines that should not be crossed.

You need to look at the views of humanity back when these events happened and not apply views of today to those events.

Originally posted by silo13

What does it matter?
You’ve got to be kidding me right? What does it matter?

How about POOF YOU’RE GONE!

How about systematically killing 100,000s or millions with clubs, bullets starvation, torture.....etc

It is all bad.... and all equal since the end result is the same. I can think of many worst ways to die than in the flash of a nuke.

But hey you decided to take my first line of my posts to focus you reply on while ignoring what the post is really about....geez hehe

reply to post by Xtrozero
Yes, it’s tough to hear anything else but *it really doesn’t matter* (what killed them) when someone is talking about the killing and causing horrific hell on earth suffering of over 250 thousand people.

Sorry, but, I can’t just go right back to reading and *getting* a post when I hear a phrase like that.

and all equal since the end result is the same.

And again, the end result is the same, but equal?
No.
Having those last moments on Earth - knowing your going to die - but still having those last moments?
Those are some of, if not the most important moments of your life - robbed in the flash of a bomb.
No, it isn’t the same.

As for this quote:

Those two nukes actually created the lines, and so the world now has lines that should not be crossed.

It’s a great point, though, one again I don’t think should have had to have been made, but yes, a great point.

Thanks

peace


[edit on 9-8-2009 by silo13]

Originally posted by Oralloy

Originally posted by Jezus
Most historians agree that Japan was already trying to surrender...

All historians agree that Japan did not send any surrender requests until after both A-bombs had been dropped.

All historians?

This is more accurate.

Most historians agree that Japan did not send any (unconditional) surrender requests until after both A-bombs had been dropped.

reply to post by silo13

Having those last moments on Earth - knowing your going to die - but still having those last moments?

I would rather not know. That would be a form of torture. I'll take the "poof your gone" method.

Originally posted by silo13
reply to post by IntastellaBurst

 

... but whats the significance of the 64 year anniversary

My reasons are stated in the article.

In a nutshell - what significance does the anniversary have?

That is happened at all - as I agree we couldn't wait to *test* the bomb and Japan paid the price.

peace

The only significance of the anniversary is to US bash, in my opinion. Couldn't wait to test??? Hmmmm... the only reason we couldn't wait to 'test' the bomb was because if we didn't Germany would have. It bothers me when others berate the US for what happened. They need to read some history and be a little clearer on what was happening at the time.

We knew that Germany was working towards the bomb and even tried to blow up their heavy water factories. What we didn't know was that Hitler was an idiot towards the end and didn't throw his resources into it. We were taking no chances and put our heart and money into it.

Truman agonized over his decision to drop the bomb. However, the alternative was a costly ground invasion that would have cost thousands and thousands of allied lives. It was the only solution.

Japan may have attempted to surrender on July 28... but due a Japanese word that had dual meanings, one of which was "ignore", we had no choice but to drop the bombs since the Japanese had already let us know they were going to fight to the death.

Now personally I feel the second bomb was over-kill. We should have waited for some response before dropping the second. However, we did not start that war either, so I don't feel too badly about it. Surprising is that no mention is made of Pearl Harbor! Sure, no A-bomb... but a surprise attack is the most cowardly thing imaginable.

Here is where you and I differ. I ask for no apology from the Japanese for Pearl Harbor, NOR do I harbor ill will towards them. Neither should we, as a nation, be expected to be apologetic for what occurred later in the war. What I do feel is that neither thing should EVER happen again. We must learn from our history, not just condemn ourselves for it.



[edit on 10-8-2009 by Alienmojo]

Originally posted by IntastellaBurst

I dont want to take away from the meaning of the article, ... but whats the significance of the 64 year anniversary ??? next year it will be 65 years, ... should we observe it as a holiday or something ??

I think the sad thing is .... Japan had already surrendered before the bombs were dropped. ... but the US wanted revenge for Pearl Harbour, ... as well as being able to test the new weapon on a population.

[edit on 7-8-2009 by IntastellaBurst]

Incorrect. Japan did not surrender until after Nagasaki was hit. They attempted to cover up what happened to Hiroshima, they did not want to let their people know that the Americans had a weapon that could destroy their cities in a second. They wanted to continue the war, it was only after the second bomb was dropped AND the Russians invaded Japanese held China, that they surrendered.

[edit on 8/10/2009 by SG-17]

Originally posted by silo13


And again, the end result is the same, but equal?
No.

They are equal sinse death is death any way you look at it.

Having those last moments on Earth - knowing your going to die - but still having those last moments?
Those are some of, if not the most important moments of your life - robbed in the flash of a bomb.
No, it isn’t the same.

I really do not think you been around much to truly understand this.

Go to Cambodia, and walk in the school where school children had their brains warped to torture 10,000s to death. These tortures were like strapping you to a medal bed and plugging it into a wall socket over and over until you died, or putting a basket around your head and filling it full of poisonous bugs until you died, or tying you in a tub of water with just your stomach muscles holding your lips above the water line and they would leave the room until you die, or walk among the graves of WELL OVER A MILLION that were lined up and shot and then stabbed/clubbed to death as they ran out of bullets.

Or see millions killed in Darfur by warlords that would go into a village and kill every man, woman and child…well they would rape the women and children first then do things like cut off their feet and hands and let then bleed to death. Or walk in the museum of the holocaust, or see a museum in Poland that showed EVERY building in Warsaw bombed to the ground…EVERY build in the whole city…

Or see the devastation that a person like Stalin did to 20 million. He was a rather nervous guy so he would go into a town and line up the total population and kill every third person to keep the up the fear. China wanted to come into the industrial age and diverted all their resources to that end. Well 100 million deaths later and they achieve their goals as people starved to death…

Japan lay waste and killed more in China than anything America did the whole war including with the nukes. Japan would round up all the females of young age and ship them off to be whores for their troops, while they would bet on if they could cut off a head with one swing of their sword with the men. Not to mention they hated prisoners of war so they were not fed much and would march them to death, the death was when a person sick with the runs and other diseases while starving just couldn’t take another step and so the Japanese guards would jokingly kill them.

Your little bubble of belief, one last look into your lovers eyes, or a chance to say good bye, etc etc…is a fairy tale my friend…



[edit on 10-8-2009 by Xtrozero]

I particularly found the way that the breast in the breastfeeding mother was airbrushed out, yet the radiation scars were still shown. Human morality is a strange thing, and I found that censorship offensive.

reply to post by silo13


Do you know what happened on August 6th 24 years ago?

I gave birth to a son, who will forever remeber that fatal day, as he loves the Japanese and yet he celebrates his birthday on their worst day.

reply to post by silo13


Using the two atom bombs saved millions of Japanese lives (and Allied lives).

Japan was going to fight to the death rather than surrender. They needed to be shocked into realizing that "a divine wind" was not going to save them.

The only alternative to nuclear weapons was an invasion of mainland Japan with the same percentage of casualties as Okinawa and Iwo Jima (Japanese casualties exceeded 99%).

Why all the sympathy for the countries that started the war?

[edit on 11-8-2009 by CharlesMartel]

Silo13...Keep living in you glorious ignorace...It is a safe place for people that can not think for themselves...And allow others to do your thinking....

reply to post by retroboy

I particularly found the way that the breast in the breastfeeding mother was airbrushed out, yet the radiation scars were still shown. Human morality is a strange thing, and I found that censorship offensive.

As was explained earlier - I airbrushed out the picture as I refused to give anyone an excuse to shut down the thread.
And there are many prudish people that would have complained against that picture for the nipple but not the scars.

I agree it’s offensive to edit - but - the lesser of two evils.

Now back on topic please.

peace

reply to post by TooRisky

Silo13...Keep living in you glorious ignorace...It is a safe place for people that can not think for themselves...And allow others to do your thinking....

Would you like to share with us why you voiced this opinion in a derogatory way - or - are you just spouting hate?

Facts are, whether you like it or not, or even know it or not, Japan was making peace efforts through the Russians long before the bombs were dropped.

Truman knew this - it was stated in his diaries - by his own pen, not hearsay.

Facts.

If you want to see them for yourself, look through the thread or do a Google search, I am through spoon feeding you.

peace

reply to post by Xtrozero
The topic of the thread is not Darfur, or Cambodia, or Stalin nor are we talking about what the Japanese did or did not do, nor if I‘ve been *around* or not.

The thread topic is USA vaporizing Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

You don’t like my view point - bully for you - But no call for insults.


Anyway, I will continue on my own path, defying hate, refusing injustice and ignorance because I could care less what you think of me or anyone else does. At the end of the day I know I’m right and that’s all that matters and too bad for those who don’t like it.

Those bombs were not dropped not to end the war, not to save lives, not to save the Americans from invading Japan.

Those bombs were dropped to prove to Russia the USA was not to be taken lightly, to justify 2 plus billions of dollars spent on making the bombs and so USA could be the *first* in the world to use atomic weapons. But not to *save lives and end suffering*...

Did you bother taking a look at the list of the people who opposed it?

As for your thinking it’s a fairy tale - the last moments of our lives being possible the most important?

Guess what. You’ll find out. Too bad you wont be able to tell us if you were right or not.

peace

EDIT TO DO SOME SPOON FEEDING:

Top U.S. military leaders recognized Japan’s growing desperation, prompting several to later insist that the use of atomic bombs was not needed to secure victory. Those who believed that dropping atomic bombs on Japan was morally repugnant and/or militarily unnecessary included:

Admiral William Leahy,

General Dwight Eisenhower,

General Douglas MacArthur,

General Curtis LeMay,

General Henry Arnold,

Brigadier General Bonner Fellers,

Admiral Ernest King,

General Carl Spaatz,

Admiral Chester Nimitz, and

Admiral William “Bull” Halsey.

Herbert Hoover wrote to a friend on August 8, 1945, “The use of the atomic bomb, with its indiscriminate killing of women and children, revolts my soul.”

In reflecting on his opposition, Leahy, who chaired the meetings of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and served as Truman’s personal chief of staff, emphasized the barbaric nature of the atomic bombs, not doubts about their effectiveness, chillingly proclaiming, “It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender....My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages.”

link

Don't forget.

You don't agree with me - you don't agree with them.

peace

[edit on 12-8-2009 by silo13]

reply to post by SG-17

They attempted to cover up what happened to Hiroshima, they did not want to let their people know that the Americans had a weapon that could destroy their cities in a second.

The only *cover up* I’ve read about is the USA censoring pictures and the media reports from allowing American’s to know just how devastating the bomb(s) were.

There was some problems when the Hiroshima bomb was dropped, all systems of communications were cut off - so the military sent in a plane to check out what the problem was - but - there was no cover up in that.

Plus think about it?

How in the hell do you keep those two bombings and the utter devastation it caused from the people of Japan?

NOT a possibility.

Anyway, I’ll do some looking around, maybe you can help me out...?

Where did you get this information? You’ve some sources or links to back it up? Or is it your opinion?

Thanks either way.

Peace

Originally posted by CharlesMartel
Japan was going to fight to the death rather than surrender. They needed to be shocked into realizing that "a divine wind" was not going to save them.

That is simply historically inaccurate.

Japan was already attempting to surrender.

Originally posted by silo13

Don't forget.

You don't agree with me - you don't agree with them.

peace

Its called the Fog of War

Also don't forget most of them didn't know the Japanese were as bad off as they were until after they surrendered and in fact those are all statements after they investigated just how bad of a position Japan really was and after they found out how horrible the atomic bombs effect were.

Nobody knew it was going to be that horrifying. Remember it was a secret new weapon, unproven complete with all the mysteries of splitting the atom and releasing that amount of radiation. Up until that point they had no real idea if Japan was going to surrender unconditionally or not. Notice below the date of the last Kamikaze attack? Yeah there was still some fight in them


Hindsight being what it is it's easy to be armchair generals 64 years after the fact.

Last Kamikaze Attack

Last Kamikaze Attack

Rear Admiral Matome Ugaki, the second in command of the Combined Pacific Fleet, directed the last official kamikaze attack, sending some "Judy"s from the 701st Air Group against the Allied fleet at Okinawa on August 15, 1945.

From your own source!

Japanese leaders, many demonstrating little concern for the suffering of their own people, had already witnessed U.S. firebombing and often near-total destruction of 64 cities without ending the war.


The U.S. had shown it could level Japanese cities almost at will in the months preceding Hiroshima. Whether the U.S. did so with hundreds of bombers or with one plane and one bomb did not fundamentally alter the strategic situation in the eyes of Japanese leaders.

Even Army Minister Korechika Anami’s startling announcement on August 9 that he had intelligence indicating that the U.S. might have more than 100 additional atomic bombs and that Tokyo would be the next target did not change the views of members of the War Cabinet who remained deadlocked 3-3 over whether to simply demand retention of the emperor system or to add three additional conditions

[edit on 12-8-2009 by SLAYER69]