Opponents of ObamaCare Shut Out in Tampa Townhall

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
reply to post by Wimbly

 

My problem with it is that we have a huge problem.

Healthcare the way it stands is in serious need of revamping.

And ALL I HEAR are people throwing stones at the current proposed bill... I don't hear anyone offering other solutions...

That's my issue.

I agree that healthcase as it currently exists in the US is unsustainable, and it is currently rationed, but having the government take it over and make it worse is not the answer.

(1) Tort reform: As I wrote recently, our crazy system of casino malpractice suits results in massive and random settlements that raise everyone's insurance premiums and creates an epidemic of defensive medicine that does no medical good, yet costs a fortune.

What to do? Abolish the entire medical-malpractice system. Create a new social pool from which people injured in medical errors or accidents can draw. The adjudication would be done by medical experts, not lay juries giving away lottery prizes at the behest of the liquid-tongued John Edwardses who pocket a third of the proceeds.

(2) Real health-insurance reform: Tax employer-provided health-care benefits and return the money to the employee with a government check to buy his own medical insurance, just as he buys his own car or home insurance.

There is no logical reason to get health insurance through your employer. This entire system is an accident of World War II wage and price controls. It's economically senseless. It makes people stay in jobs they hate, decreasing labor mobility and therefore overall productivity.

The health-care benefit exemption is the largest tax break in the entire U.S. budget, costing the government a quarter-trillion dollars annually. It hinders health-insurance security and portability as well as personal independence. If we additionally eliminated the prohibition on buying personal health insurance across state lines, that would inject new and powerful competition that would lower costs for everyone.

Washington Post

start with these things. they won't cost anything except maybe the huge amounts of money currently paid by trial lawyer lobbyists to the dems. see where we're at once these things are instituted. make one or two adjustments at a time.

obama claims health care reform is his signature issue. maybe it's time he set his ego aside and consider what is best for the country.

Originally posted by wantsome
[Rupert Murdoch, Bill Gates and Time/Warner all have thier own agenda's they push. I don't like the media at all but I have to say some are blantantly worse then others. The media does manipulate the info to pursuade the views of the common couch potato.

LOL

So now you're falling even deeper into the complete LEFTIST mentality. So people that show up are couch potatos? Isn't that a conflicting statement? Because the 'couch potato' would NOT get off of said couch to waddle their rears down to a town hall.

If you truly want to have an unbiased point of view maybe you should sit down and read the 1000+ pages of the bill. There are pretty specific issues in there that when added together make a VERY BAD BILL FOR THE PEOPLE.

Mandatory national IDs, which was shot down so now they come up with another way to force it on people, health records available to the government so they can make a decision on whether you need the coverage over another human being. In other words, if you are sicker than someone else that other person gets the coverage and not you.

Yeah, this is shaping out to be a peachy 'people' oriented bill yet again.

To answer your name, no I DON'T WANT SOME of this BS they are trying to shove down our throats.

If congress doesn't listen to the people when we tell them to vote no on a bill, when the white house is prescreening and staging press conferences and town halls to their benefit, what makes you think they would listen to a citizen or a group who might have a "solution"?

The big complaint that people are having with these town halls is more about their "elected" reps not listening to them period. When they talk to their constiuents it's always down to them, they're trying to sell a bill that they haven't even read, how is that not a con?

If there's going to be criticism of these anit-healthcare protesters being organized, then where is the outrage over Acorn having organized protests?

reply to post by HunkaHunka


Fox News like CNN is simply a handful of technogratic propoganda experts whose sole purpose in life is to provide divide and conquer warfare by pitting to large groups of voters against one another.

Democrats on the Left/CNN versus Republicans on the Right/Fox...

That is all media hyped aimed at creating nothing but endless argument between the plebes so that the Ruling Class can go about it's business unmollested or deterred.

How could anyone with intelligence fall into that trap?

I could care less what Fox or CNN has to say, I am perfectly capable of visiting the Library of Congress Online and reading Bills all by myself and deciding whether it's a good idea or a bad idea.

You are functioning simply as a windup doll, you percieve that some group of people is being woundup, and that winds you up to be agaisnt them based on the fact that you think they were woundup.

Wow that's brilliance at work...NOT.

The issues are the issues, this insane new notion of points for style, wardrobe, spontaniety and political correctness are more important than the issues themselves is pure deflection from the issues.

All it is, is one group earnestly wanting to debate, and another group earnestly doing everything in it's power to not allow a debate to take place by wanting to deduct points for style, wardrobe, spontaniety and political correctness and then claiming the desire to debate is not credible, therefore there should be no debate...

Whether you are so trapped in your circular logic as to not be able to see that or just lack the reasoning capability to see that is neither here nor there becuase the ISSUES will still be the ISSUES and they won't go away, just because people SLINK away from HEALTHY DEBATE and exchanges.

People do get angry and emotional during heated debates, they also have a tendency to hug one another and become closer friends afterwards when both sides are at least willing to hear and consider what the other side is saying during a debate.

This is the Administrations debate...We know you want Health Care and we want to give it to you, don't let anyone interfere.

That's not a debate thats a promise of an illusionary reward based on good behavior.

Yes healthcare is expensive, it could be argued not taking care of yourself with proper diet and exercise, plenty of fresh air and rest is expensive. It could be argued over eating and eating the wrong things is expensive. It could be argued that leading a sedintary life the leads to atrophy is expensive.

I tell you this though Health Care gets a lot cheaper when you pay for it with Cash and not Insurance...

These are my own examples from my real life.

MRI with Insurance 1,200.00 MRI without Insurance paying cash $350.00

X-RAYS with Insurance 150.00 X-RAYS paying cash $85.00

General Practitioner Consultation with Insurance $155.00 General Practitioner Consultation without Insurance $100.00

Chiropractor with Insurance $100.00 Chiropractor without Insurance $60.00

Massage Therapist with Insurance $100.00 Massage Therapist without Insurance $60.00

Specialist Consultation with Insurance $320.00 Specialist Consultation without Insurance $180.00.

Not only do I pay less for all these things because I pay cash, I get faster and more thorough care than their Insured clients.

The reality is that Health Care Costs are driven by market forces that skewer the Market, Insurance only drives up the cost of care and slows it down. Medicare and Medicaide only drives up the cost of care and slows it down.

Cash, that's right U.S. Dollars lowers to cost of care and speeds it up!

What a concept...Americans being paid an honest days living wages for an honest day's work and using Cash that they earned to TAKE CARE OF THEMSELVES because they can.

I take exception to the notion that I and other people are incapable of taking care of ourselves and we need Government to make sure that we are.

America needs living wage jobs not bigger government and more handhouts and more socialization.

Charity has always taken care of the poor and the indigent and disabled that's what charity is for...

There is however nothing charitable about the Administration's response to people who have real questions and concerns regarding the so called Health Bill.

In fact it's downright unAmerican and communist and I sure am not going to stand for a government and a society that allows for and tollerates no debate.

I don't know why you or anyone else would either.

Fox News and CNN aren't America, the people are America and the people deserve to be heard themselves, not just FOX and CNN interpeting what the people must really be saying and why.

This whole Obamatron Health Care plan reminds me of Charlie and Candy Mountain and the Magical Leopluridon...

Government run Health Care being the magical Candy Mountain.

Pelosi & Reid have the map. Let's gooooo... (Shuuuun the unbelievers)

reply to post by DrMattMaddix


That was good. Very appropriate and a nice metaphor. Been a while since I laughed that hard.

Originally posted by jimmyx
FOX NEWS is the only people telling you this... the health care bill isn't even written yet and nothing you said above is in this legislation

Uhm, the bill hasn't hit the floor for debate but various versions of the bill have been written Do you watch MSNBC? Keith Olbermann maybe? You sound just like his talking points...

Originally posted by HunkaHunkaWow... So this below.. the thing which says MEMO... isn't a memo? I mean it says RIGHT THERE ... POLITICAL ACTION MEMO... I didn't make that up.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/b406d8fccdeb7df1.png[/atsimg]

They are even going on BUSSES! Here is an article from a Richmond Newspaper



[edit on 7-8-2009 by HunkaHunka]

Uhm, again even if it does say "memo" well uh, let's see how many people were in his facebook group, I believe it was 65. He is not a political leader, he's not a RNC hencemen, he's not being paid by insurance groups. So, he has so much pull that he can get these 65 people to go out and riot. WOW. Frankly, I think you're right. You might be onto something OR maybe someone couldn't find an official memo so they went on a Facebook group with 65 members to find a memo that hardly anyone had seen until the liberals drug it out as "proof."

Originally posted by sos37

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
reply to post by Wimbly

 

My problem with it is that we have a huge problem.

Healthcare the way it stands is in serious need of revamping.

And ALL I HEAR are people throwing stones at the current proposed bill... I don't hear anyone offering other solutions...

That's my issue.

That's because you're not listening or you don't want to hear what's being offered.

Four Republican Congressmen have offered up an alternative to nationalized health care by way of the Patients' Choice Act.

“The Patients’ Choice Act of 2009,” transforms health care in America by strengthening the relationship between the patient and the doctor; using choice and competition rather than rationing and restrictions to contain costs; and ensuring universal, affordable health care for all Americans.

www.house.gov...

It doesn't have the price tag of the stupid Obama health care bill, it doesn't have NEARLY the government control that the Obama bill does AND it won't wreck our economy.

But I guess since it was introduced by Republicans, it's obviously a bad idea, right?

I'm all for it... how come Hannity and friends haven't mentioned it? I listen to conservative radio almost religiously looking for stuff like this.

How does this address the following issues?

1. Removing the ability for Insurance companies to deny claims?
2. Remove the ability for Insurance companies to deny access because of prior conditions
3. Bring competition to the market to lower the over all cost?


Notice I don't care about those without healthcare right now... as Business owner I am more concerned with the fact that my health care bill that I pay for my employees has shot up more than 100% over the past 3 years.

I'm very interested in any proposed solution that addresses those issues.

I don't know.. maybe I missed the ATS thread where these alternative solutions were being discussed?

[edit on 7-8-2009 by HunkaHunka]

reply to post by HunkaHunka

Notice I don't care about those without healthcare right now... as Business owner I am more concerned with the fact that my health care bill that I pay for my employees has shot up more than 100% over the past 3 years.

So what you are saying is that you do not pay your employees a living wage that allows them to afford their own quality healthcare.

To maximize your profits and still attract quality employees you sought to sweeten their compensation by providing a value added fringe benefit that they no doubt pay a sizeable portion of their non-living wage to as well in order to entice quality employees into working for you.

Now though the cost of not paying them a living wage has skyrocketed on you and eaten into your bottom line as the cost of the fringe benefit has gone up on you.

Your concern as stated does not take into consideration the non-insured, because hey they don't work for you and you make no money off of them so why care.

Your concern is not based on getting the people who work for you better or cheaper care...

Your concern is how to pad and boost your bottom line profits by getting the government to take over to provide for the people you don't/can't/won't pay a living wage to that work for you the fringe benefit you promised them as a reason to work for a non-living wage so you could maximize your profits...

Amazingly you are saying the only opposition to this is from the corporations you would like to hit with the bill so you can pad your bottom line and presumably still retain the same employees minus that cost with no raise towards a living wage once you can elliminate the cost of their healthcare so you can make more money.

Those darn other businesses trying to make you be responsible for your own promises to your own employees that you don't pay enough to afford their own healthcare!

So you can make more money.

Can you say H-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e or Pot calling the Kettle Black.

Pay your people a living wage, let them buy their own insurance or set up their own health care savings accounts.

I guess Liberal for you means with other people's money and not your own?

I've seen the videos and on the on hand, I hate these arrogant criminals more than almost anyone. But on the other hand, it's annoying and dumb to listen to a bunch of people shouting out of turn, drowning out the intelligent people who can put the verbal smackdown on these politicians. That would be more effective at this point.

You can be an angry mob outside and on the streets, that's fine, it draws attention and your signs should do the talking by way of being seen on tv.

And if they continue to unconstitutionally ignore our grievances, then we'll step it up to something really serious.

Originally posted by Kords21
reply to post by DrMattMaddix

 

That was good. Very appropriate and a nice metaphor. Been a while since I laughed that hard.

Thanks.

I hope that others can realize as serious as this has become... there are a few death threats being made on some cowardly congressmen/women.

I'm not condoning or agreeing ... Violence is the last option of those that feel completely powerless. If the officials fear reprise, they should resign.

BTW Where are the cops? Why haven't we seen arrests on these threats?

People need to lighten up. Go SCReaM at your elected official knowing they will be replaced shortly. Be smug and annoying. Like they are to you. LOL

We need to find happy replacements for our congress.

EDIT TO ADD:

I suggest a new Town Hall strategy (since I'm hundreds of miles from my town halls, you'll need to)...

[color=#E00C0C]Laugh [color=FFFFFF]At [color=#00BFFF]Representatives

\o/ FtW

Yeah, don't scream them down ... just laugh at them. That'll be fake enough for Maddow. But realistic too.


[edit on 8·7·09 by DrMattMaddix]

reply to post by midnightbrigade


"First the black panthers were used to keep people out of election booths"

Huh? When did this happen? I saw a Youtube of some Black Panther clown in Brooklyn with a baton or something in front of a polling station, but you make it sound like there was some coordinated effort by them to keep people from voting.

Which from, as far as I know, is false.

yellow, good find, s and f

For all you Obamatrons on here that would love to have our 1st amendment taken away as long as it's not what you want, you better know whom and what you are helping.

They are very well organized and will come from mulitple angles. This is a Conspiracy to hijack our country and use you guys to get the job done. At what point, when they have all their power, do they need you anymore.
Why don't you wake up a little............Same type of crap in 1913 and leave everyone hanging in the 30's.

These are in a Thread here.



www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by wantsome
^^^ I think the adminstration has a right to be heard without the misinformed inturupting and causing a sceen as they are prone to do.

Misinformed, by whose measure?

These "Obamacare opponents" probably know more about what is in the bill than the legislators who haven't read it!!!

Also, I believe you have a right to spell check.

Originally posted by earlywatcher

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
reply to post by Wimbly

 

My problem with it is that we have a huge problem.

Healthcare the way it stands is in serious need of revamping.

And ALL I HEAR are people throwing stones at the current proposed bill... I don't hear anyone offering other solutions...

That's my issue.

I agree that healthcase as it currently exists in the US is unsustainable, and it is currently rationed, but having the government take it over and make it worse is not the answer.

(1) Tort reform: As I wrote recently, our crazy system of casino malpractice suits results in massive and random settlements that raise everyone's insurance premiums and creates an epidemic of defensive medicine that does no medical good, yet costs a fortune.

What to do? Abolish the entire medical-malpractice system. Create a new social pool from which people injured in medical errors or accidents can draw. The adjudication would be done by medical experts, not lay juries giving away lottery prizes at the behest of the liquid-tongued John Edwardses who pocket a third of the proceeds.

(2) Real health-insurance reform: Tax employer-provided health-care benefits and return the money to the employee with a government check to buy his own medical insurance, just as he buys his own car or home insurance.

There is no logical reason to get health insurance through your employer. This entire system is an accident of World War II wage and price controls. It's economically senseless. It makes people stay in jobs they hate, decreasing labor mobility and therefore overall productivity.

The health-care benefit exemption is the largest tax break in the entire U.S. budget, costing the government a quarter-trillion dollars annually. It hinders health-insurance security and portability as well as personal independence. If we additionally eliminated the prohibition on buying personal health insurance across state lines, that would inject new and powerful competition that would lower costs for everyone.

Washington Post

start with these things. they won't cost anything except maybe the huge amounts of money currently paid by trial lawyer lobbyists to the dems. see where we're at once these things are instituted. make one or two adjustments at a time.

obama claims health care reform is his signature issue. maybe it's time he set his ego aside and consider what is best for the country.

Good points... but what about hte huge amounts of money spent by HealthCare insurance corps to battle claims in court?

How do we get Insurance Companies to pay on claims when folks have been paying their premiums for more than a decade?

How do we get them to handle pre-existing conditions?

reply to post by yellowcard


Only Obama Cool Aid drinkers are allowed inside.
It's clear how this is going to end.
The senior citizens have heard the truth.
Under ObamaCare we will try not to spend money on you.
Please just stay home and take a pain pill.
Do us all a really big favor and just die.

The White House is in for a reality check.
It turns out......Old People Vote!!!
The seniors have figured out that they are on the short end of the stick.
The White House is free to label all of them "Right Wing Extremists".
It will not stop the tidal wave heading towards Washington D.C.
The democrats are about to be washed out to sea. Good Riddance!
It looks like the Republicans will be taking back the House and Senate
in 2010.

reply to post by HunkaHunka


i don't know all of it, but from my own experience and those of friends and family, i know that most pre-existing conditions that make individual insurance prohibitively expensive don't exist when purchasing through a group. once health insurance is separated from employers, groups for could be defined differently. i pay a fortune for individual insurance because of relatively minor problems that many people share, people who have fine insurance, and their employer pays much less on their behalf than i am forced to pay. i don't know how things like major cancer treatments and organ failures would work, but i wish there were some options for those of us who must buy our own insurance and are being cheated. We must pay for all visits and tests as well as large copays for meds and extremely high premiums. no excuse for that. insurance companies are robbing us because we have no clout.

i'm not entirely sure how krauthammer's plan for dealing with medical damage claims would work. definitely there needs to be accountability for poor treatment but it has gone way beyond that.

reply to post by Eurisko2012


Hopefully it will be the citizens taking back the house and the senate in 2010.

The Republicans simply create problems the Democrats pretend they can solve. The Democrats simply create problems the Republicans pretend to solve.

Nothing has gotten better in America under either dysfunctional party.

Both have employed shameless and unconstitutional tactics.

Here is a novel idea, since America is now wired to Internet and Cellular Phones, let the people start representing themselves.

Let the people vote on each issue and weigh in on each issue and watch how fast Special Interest gets out of government and out of the government's budget.

Want to see the deficit reduced, sensible legislation, laws that work for the citizens instead of the corporations...stop electing corruptable congress people.

Stop engaging in a two party divide and conquer identity system.

Make people actually aware of government by allowing them to function as the government by a majority rule based on the actual people instead of corrupt politicians and media moguls, corporations and special interests groups.

The technology exists and it's probably the only way we are ever going to be rid of the edemic corruption in Congress and the Body Politic.

Sorry to be a bit off topic, but I've only one basic point to make on this subject regardless of thread. I recently made it on a Facebook friend's topic/thread, so I might as well do so here (slightly edited):

The only way a government-run health care system would work (IMO) is if a truly non-military, non-secrecy/Black Budget economy is in place; and probably with a new standard of the American dollar (for example). Heaven only knows what revolutionary-evolutionary action would have to successfully transpire in order to achieve enough sanity, common sense...

I hope, and indeed believe, at least one right person has been paying attention to my posts, as this one will be lost in the flow with all or most of the "prematurely" historically correct. Here's hoping I live to see the day when the Internet is formally recognized as the (effectively) ONLY medium for true journalism (and otherwise meaningful statements) these days.