ATS Hunts For The Missing Thunderbird Picture

Here's the deal. We've got more people remembering the photo than copies of the photo that were probably ever produced (including books, tapes, newspapers, etc). That tells me we're not dealing with an actual photo at all, but instead just people who are wanting to remember and be a part of the legacy.

Further, I bet that if I made another post in another forum and said there was a missing photo from 911 where a dude is getting airlifted away on a helicopter, loads of people would agree they've seen it > SOMEWHERE, somehow.

One last thought. Even if the PHOTO ends up being real, it doesn't mean the thunderbird inide of the photo wasn't a hoax itself.

I don't expect this post to be popular. Nobody's into cryptos more than me and for the record I believe the thunderbird is a real creature, albeit probaly shapeshifter of sorts.

Ok, so I went to Fogler Library today and searched for the Pierre Berton Show. They do not have a good selection, BUT they do have inter-library loan between most libraries in the world. So I put in a request for episodes of the show between 1964 and 1967. I hope to get lucky and get the episode containing Sanderson (and hopefully him displaying his photograph). Sooo, I hope that works.

On another note, I find it interesting that the two researchers who supposedly borrowed Sanderson's thunderbird photostat went to Coudersport Pennsylvania. It is important to note that these researchers were looking into local thunderbird sightings- -probably from Pennsylvania's remote black forest, just a few miles south of Coudersport. Most sightings in this area describe a black/brownish Condor-like bird of immense size, NOT a pteranodon-like bird. So I feel that these two researchers would only bring a photo of a feathered bird with them on the sightings inquiry. This means that the photo that they borrowed from Sanderson is most likely one of a feathered bird. According to this site: tieba.baidu.com... Sanderson believed the sightings to be of Condors. I do not think he would have thought this if his photo was of a pterosaur. Honestly, I kinda hate to draw this conclusion because it just adds to the conflict between the Epitaph's description of the bird and the "feathered" descriptions. Anyway, I will try again to find the names of the two researchers. I think it would be cool if we knew who they were because they are probably still alive.

We have the most best thunderbird forum on the internet- -we CAN find this picture. We just gotta keep looking.

Good Searching everybody,
-Russ

This thread needed some more freshening up, so here are some ideas and facts. To keep things brief and to the point, I will leave the facts vague, but everything that I have down can be found in my sources. I know a lot of this is common knowledge that is mostly found in the OP, but some of it is important (especially to people just starting to search). Plus, some of the information here is new.

1. First known publication that mentions a thunderbird photo was written by Jack Pearl in May 1963 Saga magazine.
2. His apparent source for the article was Hiram M Cranmer form Hammersley Fork, PA. who said he had seen thunderbirds in PA on more than one occasion, but never states that he owned a copy of the thunderbird photograph.
3. Cranmer's source: He said he heard about the photo from a lady from Tombstone Arizona.
4. People who knew Cranmer say that he had the thunderbird photo hanging on a wall in his home, but the photo was lost in a fire.
5. Jack Pearl states that this missing photo is connected with an article that appeared in the tombstone Epitaph in around 1890.
5. Ivan T. Sanderson was supposedly given a photo stat of the thunderbird photo.
6. Sanderson loaned it to two researchers who went to Coudersport PH, but lost the photo in 1966
7. The photo disappears.

Many credible sources claim they saw the photo in some mens magazine in the 1950s. The best/common descriptions of the photo say that it.

1. Took up two pages of the magazine.
2. Was blue or brown tinted with a white-lettered subscript.
3. Photo of a large bird (most agree a pterodactyl like bird) pinned against the side of a barn with several men in the photo wearing top hats and standing on a ramp up to the barn.
4. Photo may be a drawing or photograph (most say a photo).

John Keel remembers seeing the photo and agrees that "It had to be in the fifties". He also agrees that it was probably in a mens magazine. Keel says that the photo had to have been published in a magazine before 1956.

List of magazines that several people say they saw the photo.

Saga (checked over and over- -turning up nothing)
True (also supposedly checked)
Argosy (remains relatively unchecked)
Male (may have been checked- -not sure)
National Geographic (supposedly checked, but it wouldn't hurt to look again)
May also be in a "thin book from the turn of the century".

Where to look deeper:

1. Men's Magazines from before 1960 (most probably before 1956) -- I think this is our best bet.
2. Archives in Coudersport PA (where Sanderson's photo was last seen)
3. W. Ritchie Benedict remembers seeing Sanderson display his photo on the Pierre Berton Show. (This had to be between 1964 and 66). So where is this episode?
4. Libraries, photo archives. . .
5. Who did Sanderson get his photo from?
6. Look again into the Tombstone Epitaph's archives (I know people have looked extensively, but the article only appeared recently, so maybe the photo is still in deep hibernation)

Ok, I hope that helps. Please keep up the search.

Good searching,
-Russ

Source: www.strangemag.com...

Update:
I just received a reply e-mail from Fogler Library saying that there are no Pierre Berton Shows between 1964 and 67' available. This means that there are none of these shows available at libraries that participate in the worldwide inter-library loan program. Another dead end.

But this got me thinking. Who on earth would have a collection of these shows other then Libraries? Does anyone think that one of Pierre's relatives may have some old tapes or at least know if he interviewed Sanderson? I don't know, but I may do some research on him and perhaps mail some relatives.

Also: I just e-mailed a lady from the Library of Congress asking her if the library holds a collection of Argosy Magazine. If it does, I may be able to get it on loan. Fingers crossed.

Fogler Library has a near complete collection of National Geographic magazines. I will start checking them beginning with the year 1950 though I think Nat Geo has pretty much been searched through and through.

Hey, does anyone have any new creative ideas here? Anything would be helpful.

I'll keep in touch,
Happy trails everyone!
-Russ

a reply to: Batan

Try the unexplained magazine. It was a uk magazine that ran between 1980 & 83.

en.m.wikipedia.org...(magazine)

I'd day there is a good chance a picture like that would have been in there.

a reply to: TheBlackHat
Cool cool cool, I will check it out, thanks.

I am also going to contact CTV (the network that hosted the Pierre Berton Show) to see if they kept any episodes.

Here are some other places that have been named as possible places to look:
American Weekly
Grit magazine/newspaper
Arthur Conan Doyle's book "The Lost World" (photo was supposedly seen in this book)

However, 1950's mens magazines have come up far more commonly as places the photo may be (particularly Argosy). On that note, I have not yet heard from the Library of Congress about their collections of True, Saga and Argosy magazines despite e-mailing them twice. I have also e-mailed CTV and TVGuide about the Pierre Berton show along with some other people, so hopefully we will hear something soon.

This week, I went through every issue of National Geographic from 1950-1956 just to be absolutely sure it is not in there (that was boring). So far, that has turned up nothing. Though there are lot of articles about land diving -- it was almost weird how many there were.

Does anybody have any fresh thoughts/ideas?

Why is the last post on the cryptozoology forum from over a day ago? That is so sad. I hope cryptozoology is not going out of style.

Have a great weekend everyone,
-Russ

I don't have time to check for you but if memory serves me right, the Producers of shows dating back in those decades owned the rights to their productions and in the case of "The Pierre Berton show", that would be Screen Gems... Maybe check there?

originally posted by: HumanOnEarth
Here's the deal. We've got more people remembering the photo than copies of the photo that were probably ever produced (including books, tapes, newspapers, etc). That tells me we're not dealing with an actual photo at all, but instead just people who are wanting to remember and be a part of the legacy.

Further, I bet that if I made another post in another forum and said there was a missing photo from 911 where a dude is getting airlifted away on a helicopter, loads of people would agree they've seen it > SOMEWHERE, somehow.

One last thought. Even if the PHOTO ends up being real, it doesn't mean the thunderbird inide of the photo wasn't a hoax itself.

I don't expect this post to be popular.

Nobody's into cryptos more than me and for the record I believe the thunderbird is a real creature, albeit probaly shapeshifter of sorts.

You may be right, but it does seem strange that people have fixated on this particular photo. I don't recall so many people interested in any other alleged photo. Perhaps there's something iconic about the described imagery that resonates with people.

Apologies in advance if this update seems boring to you. I tried to keep it short, but there was a lot of cool stuff that has happened and I figured I would include it.

OK, so I finished going through every single National Geographic Magazine from the 50s. And . . . nothing—as expected. Sorry guys.

What is interesting however, is that I e-mailed Kurt Beswhick who wrote an article about the photo in 2000. As it turns out, he is a graphic designer—and honestly, he is very talented at what he does. Kurt responded to me and said that he once owned a copy of the photo:

“It was definitely a very unique and shocking photo to see and I really felt like it was real and not hoaxed. I'm a photoshop expert (I used to teach classes for Adobe) so I can spot fabrications from a mile away. This was definitely a real--albeit third or fourth generation copy--photo, there is no doubt in my mind about that . . . I saw the photocopy of the photo, I scanned it and looked at it in detail on my computer a few times...and then I lost it. I know it sounds like every other person's story who has seen this elusive photo, but it's true.”

He also tells a really cool story about how he saw one of these giant “thunderbirds”, in person.

“I had a personal sighting of a condor-like bird that was absolutely enormous. It could have been a freakishly large buzzard, but I witnessed it up close and personal as it swooped down onto my property and its wingspan was EASILY 12 feet.”

I must say that, for taking the time to reply to me, and for his obvious artistic talent, I would recommend him to anyone who needs a graphic designer.

On another note, the Library and Archives, Canada, did get back to me! I contacted them asking if they had any recorded Pierre Berton shows. Rebecca Murray responded saying: “Library and Archives Canada’s holdings include episodes of the Pierre Berton Show”, but she saw no mention of Ivan Sanderson in the guest lists of each show. So it is doubtful that they hold a copy of the supposed episode in which Sanderson displays the T-bird photo. That leaves only McMaster University and the Library of Canada, the only two place I know of that could even have the episode.

I also e-mailed CTV, CVC, Screen Gems, TV Guide (again), in regards to the Pierre Berton Show, but none of these corporates have responded yet.

Lastly, I contacted the library of Congress just to make sure they still held collections of Argosy, True and Saga magazines—probably our biggest shot of finding the photo is in these magazines. In their reply, they said that they did have an extensive collection of all three of these magazines beginning with 1882 issues of Argosy (back then, it was known as The Golden Argosy). Does anyone live close enough that they can view these magazines (mostly the 1950s issues)?

Good Searching everyone, and happy holidays!!!!
-Russ

a reply to: Batan

Great research! Keep it up and keep us posted. Much appreciated.

a reply to: Batan

This is a long shot but try "Boy's Life Magazine". When I was young I saw an article about Nessie in one of my brother's issues of that magazine. It had a profound affect on me and I've been a fortean ever since. Although I do not remember for sure if I saw the pteradactyl photo in an issue of that magazine, it's a possibility. I saw it somewhere!

a reply to: Tangerine

Hey, "long shots" are what investigations are made from. Cool, I'll check it out.

Yeah, it's funny how a single article or show can lead to a lifelong interest in the unexplained--that is pretty much what happened to me too.

What is this?

a reply to: Batan

Been following the thread for sometime and I just wanted to say that I am impressed with the dedication that you have put forth to finding this photo and wish I could be of assistance. Look forward to seeing the photo when you or someone on the forum finds it. Keep up the hunt.

a reply to: HoinkDoink

It looks superimposed. I call fake.

a reply to: misguided

Hey, thanks for the kind words. Nice mountain lion thread by the way.

Does anyone know of an archive of Argosy Magazine (other than online archives and the library of Congress)? All the archives I have found are limited to pre-1930s.

a reply to: Batan

Thanks for the compliment. Not sure if this has been posted or not, but it is an online archive of covers from Argosy magazine. I went through a few and didn't see anything, at work right now so didn't get to give it too much time, but figured you may have a rough idea of the date you are looking for and if you found the actual issue you're lookinh for it would narrow down the search. Hope it helps..

www.philsp.com...

a reply to: Batan

Another problem that could be hindering the search for catalogs is the way the magazine title read through different years. Such as "Argosy", "The Argosy", "Argosy All Story Weekly", "The Golden Argosy" and sometimes described as a men's magazine, and something about railroads. Seems as if it underwent many diffenrent name changes throughout its publication.

a reply to: ravenshadow13

I know this thread is really, really really old. But I came across the story on another website and started looking around. I did find the original news story in the Tombstone Epitaph. Tombstone Epitaph 4-26-1890 It is in the 6th column at the top.

The animal was dead. The plan was to skin it and have the hide sent 'East' for examination after attempting to bring it into town. No mention if it was brought into town.

The May 1963 issue of saga magazine states that the photograph is in an 1880 issue of the Tombstone Epitaph. That is not possible since it pre dates the event and even in 1890, there were no photographs in that newspaper, only drawings.