Simon Peter and Apostolic Succession

reply to post by orangeman dave


Hi orangeman/

If I was you, I wouldn't go pointing the finger at just ONE particular group of who aided the Nazis!

ICXC NIKA
helen

reply to post by helen670


Well your not me!

Hear put this in your pipe and smoke it.

www.holocaustrevealed.org...

www.fantompowa.net...

www.vaticanbankclaims.com...

hear is a wee picture of the Priests and Bishops giving the old Nazi salute

www.alamoministries.com...



[edit on 11-8-2009 by orangeman dave]

reply to post by orangeman dave


Hi orange/
Firstly, I dont have a pipe,and My dad wont give me his!

Like I said....''DONT go pointing the finger at just ONE particular group!
I have seen what you link me to...
Have you bothered to read what I actually wrote?

ICXC NIKA
helen

EDIT...spelling

[edit on 8/11/2009 by helen670]

reply to post by helen670


Helen they were up to their necks in ww2, they aren't the only ones obviously but they are the biggest and you have seen the inquisitions do you think the vatican wouldn't be happy letting others do their inquisitions for them?

My god their is a Jesuit priest doubled as a Nazi can you give me a similar occurence within another religions group?

Peace

Originally posted by orangeman dave

My god their is a Jesuit priest doubled as a Nazi can you give me a similar occurence within another religions group?

Peace

Sure, how about the Protestant Reich Church founded by Hitler? Good enough for ya?

Eric

Well your not me! Hear put this in your pipe and smoke it. www.holocaustrevealed.org... www.fantompowa.net... www.vaticanbankclaims.com... hear is a wee picture of the Priests and Bishops giving the old Nazi salute www.alamoministries.com...

OrangemanDave - Give me a break.

The first link you provided, HolocaustRevealed.org appears to be copyrighted by the "Christian Churches of God" - whoever that is. This is not a credible source.

Anyone can post this kind of drivel and hide behind some fictitious name. Who are the "Christian Churches of God"? Where are their credible academic references for their allegations? I see none.

Your next link, from some web site called Fantompowa.net, is similarly vague. The authors do not indicate who they are, what they represent, etc. Again, you could make any kind of web site. Not credible at all.

The third link, www.vaticanbankclaims.com... does not even work.

The last link, which shows a series of alleged pictures of priests and Nazis, located at www.alamoministries.com... is operated by the infamous Tony Alamo cult.

The operator of this web site, Tony Alamo Christian Ministries, is a cult leader down in Texas.

He is also a convicted child molester, facing 175 years in prison later this year.

When you can share some credible, academic references, please let us all know. What a pathetic, sad joke spreading this bogus crap about Catholics and Nazis.

From 1941 to 1944, Pope Pius and the Catholic Church were responsible for saving more Jews from Nazi persecution than any other person or institution. Some Israeli scholars estimate that as many as 860,000 European Jews were saved from death through concealment in Church facilities, issuance of fake Baptismal certificates, public appeals and other methods.

The Catholics were against Nazism from the beginning of the war.

As Cardinal Secretary of State, Pacelli signed a Concordat between Germany and the Vatican at a ceremony in Rome on 20 July 1933. His pontificate began on the eve of World War II.

In the 1937 encyclical Mit brennender Sorge, drafted by Pope Pius XII when he was still a cardinal, Pope Pius XI denounced Nazism and breaches of the Reichskonkordat.

Read from the pulpits of all German Catholic churches, it has been described as the first official denunciation of Nazism made by any major organization.

Nazi persecution of the Church in Germany then began by "outright repression" and "staged prosecutions of monks for homosexuality, with the maximum of publicity."

In Poland, the Nazis murdered over 2500 monks and priests while even more were sent to concentration camps. The Priester-Block (priests barracks) in the Dachau concentration camp lists 2600 Roman Catholic priests.

Catholics were persecuted by the Nazis to the point of mass murder.

How you can claim that Catholics were in cahoots with the Nazis by posting links to web sites run by child-molesting cult leaders is beyond me.

To address the OP, I would agree, if he is saying the claim of the Catholic Church to be Apostolic is false. They, meaning the church leadership of what survives today as the official church, had a devastation on their hands when the final war was over and they could feel comfortable in their positions of power. (caused by the controversy created by the violent enforcement of the version of the trinity decreed by the Council of Nicea) Any remnants of original Christianity had been stomped out, and they needed to give themselves an air of legitimacy. So a myth was developed to support the idea that there was somehow an unbroken line of succession, from the Apostles, to the present leadership. In actuality, what they ended up with were people who, if you were to trace their roots in their learning of religion being passed down from mentor to student, you will end up with pure pagans.


[edit on 12-8-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by CookieMonster09


As the site says a pictures says a Thousand words and the pictures are authentic!

I could post a hundred sites showing the Nazis with the Vatican but apologists like you would use the old Anti Catholic chestnut.

You have a cheek calling other denominations child molesters do you want me to post some links to the Vaticans good deads on child molesting they are the biggest offenders in the world fact. Does Boston ring any bells or the recent stuff in Ireland.

What about Catholic Hitler referring to one of his liutenants as Igantius of Loyola,what about the Concordat between Germany and the Vatican1

Take of your blinkers.

reply to post by EricD


Hitler formed them, he was a Roman Catholic and he controlled the protestants of Germany. Mussolini was a Catholic as well, same as Stepinac and i think they were trying to beatify him not long ago he helped kill hundres of thousands.

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

liberalslikechrist.org...

Anyway this is getting off topic stick to the main topic.

reply to post by CookieMonster09


This is the last time I say this. Father, Son, Holy Ghost are titles for Jesus Christ. The Holy Trinity proclaims them to be three interchangeable persons. Those who believe in the Holy Trinity pray to the Father for some things. They pray to the Son for other things. And they pray to the Holy Spirit for different things. God, Lord, Creator. Are some more titles for Jesus, but they do not form a Trinity. When I die and go to Heaven, I will not have to explain anything to Jesus when I kneel before Him. (Thank you Jesus for that!)


Jesus did not set up the Roman Catholic Church. I consider that to be blaspheme. To say that God ordained a group to make making money their top priority, and to touch on little boys. What is wrong with you.


Jesus set up the church as such:

Ephesians 4:11 And He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ





Give me the Bible verse in which He appoints Popes and Bishops and Priests and gives the okay to moleste children. It is not in there.

reply to post by daysofnoe


Well said i couldn't have put that better myself

I'll await the reply from these brainwashed Catholics, my god Jesus founded the Catholic Church how stupid a statement is that

Originally posted by orangeman dave
reply to post by EricD

 

Hitler formed them, he was a Roman Catholic and he controlled the protestants of Germany. Mussolini was a Catholic as well, same as Stepinac and i think they were trying to beatify him not long ago he helped kill hundres of thousands.

Anyway this is getting off topic stick to the main topic.

It's a little odd that you would direct others to stick to the main topic when you were the person that brought up the Nazis in a post on page two.

Hitler was not a Roman Catholic. He was baptized a Catholic, but was never a practicing Catholic. His father was irreligious and his most influential teacher in secondary school was a vehement anti-Catholic whom Hitler wrote affectionately about.

In February of 1931 the German Bishops excommunicated all active Nazis, including Hitler.

Hitler himself claimed that he was a 'total pagan'. He had been since his teens.

By clinging to obvious canards you do a disservice to any reasonable arguments you have with the Church.

Eric

Originally posted by orangeman dave

You have a cheek calling other denominations child molesters do you want me to post some links to the Vaticans good deads on child molesting they are the biggest offenders in the world fact. Does Boston ring any bells or the recent stuff in Ireland.

Ok, just to see if we are clear here, are you saying that it is NOT legitimate argumentative to bring up child abuse scandals in religious organizations?

Tony Alamo (actual name: Bernie LaZar Hoffman) is a cult leader who, in addition to the child abuse charges, was also found guilty of tax fraud. He has been married 8 times and was involved in a bizarre court case regarding the corpse of his first wife who he was promising the resurrection of.

But don't believe me, check out the testimonies of those who broke away from his cult:

www.tonyalamonews.com...

Try citing unbiased and objective sources.

Eric

Well said, Eric D. Hitler was heavy into the occult as well, as were his inner circle. The Catholic Church was quite active in denouncing Nazism, as well as the leading organization for saving Jews from the Holocaust.

And the pictures from a loony-tune cult leading child molester sure don't convince me that the Catholic Church hierarchy was ever in cahoots with the Nazis, especially when over 2500 monks and priests were massacred by the Nazis.

Jesus did not set up the Roman Catholic Church. I consider that to be blaspheme. To say that God ordained a group to make making money their top priority, and to touch on little boys. What is wrong with you.

First, Jesus Christ did set up the Roman Catholic Church. You just don't know your Church history. Peter was Christ's first successor, and he - as well as St. Paul and other saints - were instrumental in spreading the Gospel and founding the organizational structure known as the early Church - i.e., the Roman Catholic Church. To say otherwise is simply naive.

Secondly, the Church was not founded to make money as a top priority, nor to abuse children. You are sick in the head if you think that is what the Church is all about, and you are ignoring the many good and charitable works that the Church has done through the ages.

Yes, there have been child abuse issues - as there have been with virtually every kind of religion, school, or organization that deals with children - granted - BUT, the Church has taken aggressive action to correct these issues, and it is being resolved. But this is no worse than what happens in other secular and other religious institutions - And less than 1% of all priests have ever been accused of abuse.

To defame the entire Church for the actions of very tiny minority of bad eggs, is not only un-Christian, but also entirely an inaccurate assessment of the Church - and completely ignorant of what positives the Church brings to the world and has done so for many centuries.

Secular history as well as Catholic documents clearly indicate that the Word of God was kept from the human race for about 1260 years.

The purpose? To interject themselves between a man and his God.

It was about power and wealth, Satan's favorite tactics.

Only when the printing press came out and the common man now had access did men discover that this Catholic Church was so far removed from the teachings of the Bible, as to be unrecognizable.

Martin Luther was a good Catholic.

Until he started reading for himself.

There was no succession of Peter. Peter may have been an apostle, but he was never a church leader in the modern sense of the word.

All those powers given to the apostles? Only those who they lay hands on and gave those powers to were able to use them, and when they died, that generation, all connection to the apostles was cut.

Succession?

No. And it's an abomination to state something so untrue. But, they've never had much trouble distorting the truth in the past.



[edit on 12-8-2009 by dooper]

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
First, Jesus Christ did set up the Roman Catholic Church. You just don't know your Church history. Peter was Christ's first successor, and he - as well as St. Paul and other saints - were instrumental in spreading the Gospel and founding the organizational structure known as the early Church - i.e., the Roman Catholic Church. To say otherwise is simply naive.

Secondly, the Church was not founded to make money as a top priority, nor to abuse children. You are sick in the head if you think that is what the Church is all about, and you are ignoring the many good and charitable works that the Church has done through the ages.

The early church that was set up by Jesus, through the apostiles, was the true church, which is the body of Christ. Not about titles and powers. There were twelve tribes that the eplistles were written to.

Charitable works... Funny how that comes back to money. These good works that you speak of were done for pride. They do not give glory to God, they try to glorify themselves. Where is laying on of hands, where is the healing the sick, when did they cleanse leapers, why are they not casting out devils, why are they raising their children to live as dead as opposed to raising the dead.

Please, give me Bible scripture where the Roman Catholic Church is set up. I fail to have come across it.


And Dooper, thank you for those good points:

Originally posted by daysofnoe
Where is laying on of hands, where is the healing the sick, when did they cleanse leapers, why are they not casting out devils, why are they raising their children to live as dead as opposed to raising the dead.

I'll make you an offer. I'll do the footwork here and get you concrete examples of everything that you asked for and I'll provide links and where possible, objective sources IF you agree that if I do so you will admit that you were casting aspersions where they didn't belong and that you were painting with too wide a brush.

I think that's reasonable. What about it?

Eric

Originally posted by dooper
Secular history as well as Catholic documents clearly indicate that the Word of God was kept from the human race for about 1260 years.

Only when the printing press came out and the common man now had access did men discover that this Catholic Church was so far removed from the teachings of the Bible, as to be unrecognizable.

Martin Luther was a good Catholic.

Until he started reading for himself.
[edit on 12-8-2009 by dooper]

Can you please provide some sources for these claims?

It's hard to take such statements seriously without independent corroboration. Please use objective sources who are reporting without bias.

Thanks,

Eric

Originally posted by EricD

Originally posted by daysofnoe
Where is laying on of hands, where is the healing the sick, when did they cleanse leapers, why are they not casting out devils, why are they raising their children to live as dead as opposed to raising the dead.

I'll make you an offer. I'll do the footwork here and get you concrete examples of everything that you asked for and I'll provide links and where possible, objective sources IF you agree that if I do so you will admit that you were casting aspersions where they didn't belong and that you were painting with too wide a brush.

I think that's reasonable. What about it?

Eric

My mother's best friend had a permanet eye condition. The name of it, I do not even know, some rediculous doctor term. Something that would have most likely caused her to be blind in old age. And when she went into an appointment after being filled with the Holy Ghost, during her test she saw a right hand with a cross in it, dripping blood. And when she was done, her doctor was awestuck by the fact that there was nothing wrong with her eye. There are Pastors I have talked to that have been a part of people being healed of cancer.

The devil was cast out of me.


That is my arm. I was raised from the dead. I was a dead man, going through life until the flesh died, not knowing that I was only going to enter a second death which there was no escaping. But the Lord raised me from the dead and gave me a brand new life, and that came about by family's prayer and the laying on of hands.


I am sorry, I do not have other links. There is more to life than the internet.

I am not painting anything, I am talking scripture:

Matthew 10:
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

reply to post by EricD


If you're completely ignorant of all secular history, then I'm not paid to educate you.

And you really don't want me to get started. I'm not some dumb kid who's been TOLD stuff all his life and feels he has to defend it.

If we are to believe that the Bible is the final word, and if we are to believe that even in the days of the Apostles that the Church was set up as it was intended, then certainly there are a few problems for Catholics.

Right out of the gate, even with the Apostles, there was zero differentiation between clergy and laity. No difference. There was no such thing in the early Church as clergy. All Christians were the same, each congregation was completely independent of the other, all worship was determined from the letters that we now call the New Testament, and no one man in any congregation had any more influence than the other ELDERS who by the way, were ALL married, and you can read the qualification of office in the New Testament for yourself.

Sound anything like the Catholic Church?

The Catholic Church was a political power, and had little to do with scriptural Christian practice.

Ever really read what the Catholics believe, print, and teach?

"The very nature of the Bible out to prove to any thinking man the impossibility of its being the one safe method to find out what the Savior taught." Question Box, 1913 Ed., 67

"There is nowhere in the New Testament a clear, methodical statement of the teaching of Christ." Question Box, 66

"Again, it has ever been practically impossible for men, generally, to find out Christ from the Bible only." Question Box, 70.

"The Bible was not intended to be a textbook of the Christian religion." Catholic Facts, 50

"To enable her [the Catholic Church] to carry out this divine plan she makes laws, laws purely ecclesiastical, but laws that have the same binding force as the divine laws themselves . . . For Catholics, therefore, as far as obligations are concerned there is no practical difference between God's law and the law of the [Catholic] Church." Explanation of Catholic Morals, 26

You know, it takes some balls to place yourself equal to God.

"To be consistent, Catholics should never quote from the Bible, for they say none but the clergy [created long after the Apostles were gone] can understand it! It then, would be worthless as proof.

"Since it is clear from experience that if the Sacred Books are permitted everywhere and without discrimination in the vernacular, there will by reason of the boldness of men arise therefrom more harm than good." (Fourth rule concerning prohibited books by the Council of Trent, and approved by Pius IV, 1563 AD, translated by J.J. Schroeder, Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent, 274.

Yes, partly due to the hand copying of the Bible, and partly due to the fact that they COULDN"T teach the Bible to the people for fear of exposing their own counter teachings, the Bible was basically withheld for about 1260 years.

I can go on, or if you want, I can lay out Catholic admission of their own forgeries - and the admission of their own false teachings.

But.

As I said.

You really don't want to get me started.