I'm not defending these cretins but listen. All of the anger and outrage that we all feel, was felt by the Iraqis when they saw those prison pictures. It may not seem like a big deal to us, the humilation, but do you know what it means to have the bottom of a foot touch your body? No big deal for us, but to Iraqis, it is a tremendous affront. The anger you and I feel, they feel the same when they see something a simple as those prison pictures. It's a cultural thing.

Occupiers? Perhaps for now - what if we had left after toppling the regime? What would have heppened then? Tribal wars, I'd wager. I know - "We never should have gone". Well, hindsight is 20/20. All I can truthfully say (IMHO) is that we need to finish the job there, then leave them to themselves. I think a democracy is impossible there, but if we pull out now, I think things would get worse. Terrorists would claim a major victory, the militias that we have fought would claim victory, and would try to take over.

You speak as if all we are doing is pillaging, raping and humiliating them all. I sincerely do not believe that is the case. Are you trying to insinuate that all of our military people over there are ruthless criminals? I don't think they are. I think some rotten apples were found, and I'm glad an army person blew the whistle on them.

My bashing was actually against groups like Amnesty, they don't cry about the crimes that Al Qaeda and others have been doing and don't demmand anything from Al Qaeda and other groups because they know what the response from the terrorists would be...

We also went to Iraq to stop groups like Al Qaeda (thus the war on terror) and to stop Saddam from attacking any other countries like he attacked Kuwait.

There was no other choice but to start, and there is no other choice but to finish this war. Leaving now would make things worse for everyone.

curme,

Why don't we all join those un-evolved cretins, and
live the backwards "stone age" life again..
Their heyday was over along time ago..They should get over it.

I could care less about their culture or lack thereof. Unless an Arab, or Muslim
speaks out against this. They are not fit to be on earth.
It's not that complicated.
ALL this "touchy" "feely" understanding, and respect for other LESSER cultures is what started this recent WAR.
TOO MUCH PC'ness killed the cat..AND 3000 people at the WTC

I read a warning from Banshee way back when that this thread was about the named victim, not about religion.

It seems to have become very politicized though.

The thread is titled "Video Shows Beheading of American Civilian by Al Qaeda Group".

How could it NOT be expected that it brings up a lot of stuff for readers, that has to do with issues from individual human suffering to the politics of war to terrorism as opposed to war to cross-cultural sensitivities to comparative religion.

To me, reading what I have read, it sums up the stupidity of the catchphrase selected by the Bush admin, "War On Terrorism" to justify occupation of Iraq. My signature once said it is pointless to wage war on an abstract noun. (The admin has created as much terrorism as anyone with its performance at home, frightening many US citizens into not speaking up against it).

Chalk up one more victim in the reprehensible "War Of Terrorism". Terrorism will not be defeated by war.

Originally posted by curme
I'm not defending these cretins but listen. All of the anger and outrage that we all feel, was felt by the Iraqis when they saw those prison pictures. It may not seem like a big deal to us, the humilation, but do you know what it means to have the bottom of a foot touch your body? No big deal for us, but to Iraqis, it is a tremendous affront. The anger you and I feel, they feel the same when they see something a simple as those prison pictures. It's a cultural thing.

I think AlQueada is the problem. Not the Iraqi's having to look at the bottom of a foot. The people that did this may not even be Iraqi at all. They may be from some other country like most other AlQueadawhattheheckdo youcallthem who knows? To say they are Iraqi is something that can't be said for sure at this time. More than likely they are cowards from some other place like Saudi Arabia starting trouble because they have been brainwashed by some religious nut tribal leader.

I'm just saying we need to understand our enemy, not just say or do things without thinking. Did you know he was held by the US for 13 days without being able to make a phone call or see a lawyer? His family says that they blame Bush, because if he wasn't detained, he could of left the country sooner. The story is still developing. Why did the US detain him? Or rather, why no rights? He's a US citizen!

EIDT: I just found out.

One government official said Berg had earlier been arrested by Iraqi police in a sweep and detained by coalition authorities. Those authorities contacted the FBI, which interviewed Berg, the source said.

Berg was released when authorities realized he was in Iraq legally, the source said. He was in the process of leaving Iraq when he was taken captive by insurgents.
CNN

[Edited on 11-5-2004 by curme]

I guess we all could agree yes there are numerous reasons, people, minority groups that have a vadetta agenst the world. but what are we the people going to do about, the same thing that we are doin now just talking.

Goverments democratic or otherwise wont listen to the people, why? its as simple as this, the rich get richer the poor get poorer.

Originally posted by Cutwolf

***You've been warned***

AND yes u should be to this guys face has been all over the news and now u do this, sorry but no u should not have posted that address, this guys family have been through enough and now somone comes along, with a brillant idea, lets post the video on the internet.

You make me sick.

You want to shelter yourself from the truths of war? I think the people should be allowed to see things like this. Maybe then they can really make up their minds on this war.

maybe maybe not, but think about what this is all about, we all have seen footage on the news, we have read about it, do we really need to go to a address and get the hole footage so we can say to our friends "ah geeze i got that entire footage of them killing a guy" no of corse not.

Cutwolf,

I think it's ok you posted the link..Most of us have seen it. Drudgereport linked it as well.

It shows the truth of who we are dealing with.
Cowards who are afraid to show their faces, killing an unarmed man.

It's hard to look at, but sometimes the truth hurts.

Confrontational posts deleted from this thread. Not appropriate for the subject matter. Solemnity is in order.

Originally posted by Colonel
There's always impeachment.

Theres also a trial for War Crimes that should come with it.


People have been asking for the Translation of the Video, I was able to grab it off NEIN B4 they went down:

Translated from Arabic

Sheikh Abu Mus'ab Alzrqawy slaughters an American with his hands and threatens Bush with more

A statement to the nation

The praise of Allah for all Muslims with his support and the humiliating of those who attempt to defeat Islam and who attack it and who entice the unbelievers with their cunning.

The one that appreciated the days countries with its justice and the prayer and the greeting on from above the Islam lighthouse by its sword as for after :

The Islamic nation

You rejoice at the first signs of the dawn that have started that have granted the wind of triumph. Allah was benevolent to us in Al Fallujah, granting us victory

On one of the days of Allah and that was known to Allah alone

The Islamic nation

Does any excuse for waiting remain? How the free Muslim sleeps, with his eyelids closed.

And he sees that Islam is slaughtered and can be seen bleeding its dignity

And the shameful pictures and the news of the evil humiliation of the Islam people men and women in Ghareb 's father prison then where the jealousy and where the zeal and where the anger about the Allah's religion and where the jealousy for the Muslims sanctities and where the revenge for the honors of Muslims and Muslims is in the crosses prisons .

As for you are the Islam clerics then to Allah we complain about you, you see that Allah have founded the argument on you by the Islam young man who humiliated the strongest force in the date then broke its nose and destroyed its pride

We came to you that you learn from them the reliance meanings and derive from their doing the lessons of sacrifice and redemption to when you remain as the women you master only the slapping language and know only the way of wail and weeping

Then this appeals the world freemen and this it begs Kofi Annan and a third begs Amr Moussa and fourth he demands peaceful demonstrations and as if they did not hear to his saying ( ( O you the prophet incited the believers to the fight ) )

You were fed up with the fight of the conferences and the oratorical battles ohm came to you that you take the jihad way and carry the sword that sent by it the prophets master

And we beg from you that you do not be involved as usual in the denial of what will do it satisfaction of the Americans

He has ordered the prophet - peace be upon him - and he is master the merciful are with the slitting of the necks of some prisoners and their slow killing

And for us it is an example and a good example

As for you, the Roman dog Bush, I hope you are displeased and we wait for you with God's Help tough days and you and your soldiers today who tred Iraq's land will regret it.

And she dared in it to the Muslims fever

And another message to traitor Pervez Musharraf then we say to him that we in wait for your meeting with your soldiers

We demand of the American and will take revenge for the blood of our brothers in and Iraq and elsewhere

And as for you and the Americans soldiers wife then we say that we offered to the American administration this prisoner in exchange for some of the prisoners in Abu Ghareb prison but they refused

Then we say but if the dignity of Muslims and Muslims in Abu Ghareb prison and others is worth theur blood and souls

we tell you to know that the coffins will arrive to you one coffin after another, as your people are slaughtered in this way.........

Then you kill the polytheists where you find them and you take them and count them and place them where they can be seen.

Allah is the greatest and the honour to Allah and to its messenger and to the militants

And our last claim is that the praise of Allah is the Lord of the Worlds

Abu Mus'ab Alzrqawy
Prince of Al Tawhid group and jihad
Iraq
22 Rabi I 1425
*******************
11/5/2004

And you see the slaughter, your fighting brothers suspend the head of this unbeliever on one of Baghdad bridges so that they teach a lesson to others from the infidels and serves as a witness to the honour of the Muslims

This Quote Was Taken from the Northeast Intelligence Website

Ah yes, the beheading.
For those that are so outraged at this event you might want to consider one thing. All evidence of this video is weak at best. I do not deny that a man was likely beheaded, considering a body was found. However. Every link on the internet to stills of this magical video simply lead one to another site that talks about the stills, with another false link to a similar page. Why is that? Talk about your conspiracy. There is a spin master at the White House being thanked for a job well done. BUSH IS EVIL

peekay, we have the video. It exists.

After reading the translation, I can't help but go back to my statement made a few days ago that the abuse photos are a VERY VERY big deal and that they would cause significant events.

This is a significant event. It should not be diminished by the number of souls loss, not when the hatred exhibited is taken into account.

I saw the video - downloaded it before NEIN went down.

I deleted it from my computer, and will never look for it again. To say it is disturbing is like saying the Fallujah civilian victims had minor burns on their pinkies.

I think the abuse issue is sickening also, but the terrorists would have found another reason for doing something like this - maybe not to this person exactly, and maybe not at this particular time, but to another person somewhere else.

Terrorists will never change - any reason they can come up with to encite terror, they will do it.