It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Too many people on ATS cannot decipher from New and Old Testaments.

page: 1
7
<<   2  3 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Aug, 5 2009 @ 04:19 PM
link   
I am writing something that I feel I should have done long ago but I never really got round to or was too busy answering this Old and New Testament arguments to even consider doing my own.

A lot of people have been using Old Bible Jewish laws to topple the rest of the message of the Bible and use contradictions and all kinds of so called smart thinking, but we know these threads do only one thing and that is create large replies that can span many days. I am not saying I am an expert on this but I know enough to patch the holes in faith that many seem to escape the net.

One of the reasons for this ignornace is lack of teaching and the more society forgets the larger the army of ignorant quoters on here and everywhere. So just to clear a few things up I thought it may help a few, even if its a minority these days.

Anyway I will try and explain things which in a way make sense; well I hope it does anyway.

Just a few pointers before going into essay size explanations.

New Testament supersedes Old for laws and actions and attitudes but there is still prophecy to fill even for today.

First off the Old Testament was just that - Old, something’s changed and not everything applied anymore once Christianity and Jesus came to save our souls.

The Old Testament was for the Jews only; it was their own bloodline that dealt with it, not other races or peoples.

The Jews today still have their own prophecies to fill which involve the Return to Israel and times of persecution that comes with it.

Why is race and tribe important? Because through the Line of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, King David and other bloodlines related to Mary who gave birth to Jesus the Son of God.

Why so many wars and killings and commands from God?

One reason like the flood of Noah was the corruption of bloodlines, the fallen Angels wanted to mix human bloodlines to save themselves. Genesis 6 and after.
This happened in Moses times and of course with King David with Goliath. Not all battles were against man, Even good Angels sometimes helped out if they were in trouble.
If that was not bad enough we know what happened when Rome found out when a new King was born, they slaughted all the infants.
_______________________________

Contradictions people may say relating to the Old Testament and Bible Quotes showing why not;

Matthew 5:17: Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets; I came not to destroy, but to fulfill.

Galatians 3:13: Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law.

Colossians 2:14: Having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us, he has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Deuteronomy 24:1-4: When a man takes a wife and marries her, if she then finds no favour in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, let him then write her a certificate of divorce, give it to her, and send her out of the house.

Matthew 19:8: Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.

Matthew 5:38–39: You have heard that it was said, “An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.” But I tell you, do not resist an evil person.

But because the purpose of Jesus filled all other harsh realities through his sacrifice he was able to mend old laws that was otherwise quite harsh and barbaric for some societies, but even so these laws were just torches that were passed on from generation to generation of Jews to keep God and man together.

It is true that the character of God never changes, but due to the sins of mankind, God’s relationship with his creation has changed dramatically over time. The story of creation in Genesis tells us that after God created mankind and his surroundings, God reflected on his creation and felt that it was “very good”

Galatians 3:19,23-25: Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions… Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God…

2 Corinthians 3:13-14,17: Moses put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. But their minds were blinded… the veil is taken away in Christ… Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

Hebrews 7:18-19: A former commandment is annulled because of its weakness and uselessness, for the law made nothing perfect; but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

John 8:3-11: The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?" …Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. Jesus stood up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more."
__________________________

Secondly it’s okay to drink wine and eat what you want, wine was used to clean a bad stomach Timothy2 and Jesus made wine from water.

Christianity is not as backwards as people think, but I feel on ATS people use references that they do not understand.


[edit on 5-8-2009 by The time lord]




posted on Aug, 5 2009 @ 04:36 PM
link   
reply to post by The time lord
 


Great stuff! I don't have a lot to add yet, but I appreciate your efforts thus far, and I will be following this thread!




posted on Aug, 5 2009 @ 05:27 PM
link   
DDuuude!!
Way to go - but most won't listen. They think the new servitude & slavery is like the old. Why should you follow Christ - which has been called a religion of servitude & slavery? God in the Old Testament was behind the veil and only certain people could commune with him (I'm not counting the prophets - they showed up usually when no one was listening). Akido is all about getting out of the way and letting your opponent hurt themselves. Christ wants you to get out of the way (until you get better) and let him drive. He drives great and you can learn so much. A slave or servent whose Master wants the greatest for them and will give it to them is much better then a person who has everything and is not content.
Oh. Even the prophets didn't want God to drive at times. We are only human. Jonah wanted Ninavah to DIE!, DIE1 DIE! God wanted it to LIVE!, LIVE!, LIVE! Who won & who got swallowed by a big fish (phew!).



posted on Aug, 5 2009 @ 05:31 PM
link   
You wonder why they made a New Testament on top of the Old, maybe it's because it's so that people will like it more?



You have just wasted your time, my Red Book overrides your Bible no matter what it says.

[edit on 8/5/2009 by die_another_day]



posted on Aug, 5 2009 @ 08:58 PM
link   

Originally posted by die_another_day



You wonder why they made a New Testament on top of the Old, maybe it's because it's so that people will like it more?



You have just wasted your time, my Red Book overrides your Bible no matter what it says.

[edit on 8/5/2009 by die_another_day]


Maybe its because if you get qualifications that are better than the last you may end up with a better job prospect, mankind works to get better not worse, and its all about taking that journey and mankind kept a record with their relationships with God.
The Bible was all about reaching the arc of the final epic, but prophecy is still open to this day and the job is not quite yet done.



posted on Aug, 5 2009 @ 09:18 PM
link   
Good job. My only problem is with those who cherry-pick from the Bible in order to persecute others. Leviticus comes to mind. I give no quarter where that is concerned -- You use ALL of it or concede that some laws were written for a period that has passed.

I like the way you've shaped your thread, sort of easing us, the reader, into the notion of the laws of Christ as superceding those of Moses, but framed for Christians and not exclusionary of anyone. At least that's how I read it.

Thoughtful work.



posted on Aug, 5 2009 @ 10:20 PM
link   
The Ten Commandments are God's spiritual laws and not even the New Testament does away with them. Instead, Jesus put a greater emphasis on them. Not only should you not murder, but you shall not hate as it is spiritual murder. Not only should you not commit adultery, you shall not lust over another woman for you commit adultery in your heart. Most people will say yes 9 times as far as agreeing with the Ten Commandments but for some reason, they don't like the Sabbath commandment (4). By the way, you missed what follows Matthew 5:17. Maybe you should complete what Jesus was saying by adding verse 18 and 19.

Yes I am one of those who opposes your efforts on this thread because the New Testament is an "addition" to the Old, not a replacement. It gives spiritual meaning to what the Old Testament laws were and what they are for. But seeing that God's commandments are spiritual, only one with the Holy Spirit dwelling within can truely follow these laws. This is why the Mosaic Laws were imperfect.... carnally minded people following the laws because they had to. Spiritually, you want to follow them with all of the added emphasis Jesus brought to the laws. Once again, add matthew 5:18-19 to 5:17 so everyone gets the full scope of what Jesus was saying.



posted on Aug, 5 2009 @ 11:14 PM
link   
What about the contradictions in the New Testament alone? Paul is constantly contradicting Jesus except when he is just praising him in the same manner politicians praise the flag/nation. I do not really see Jesus contridicting the OT, only to bring proper understanding on how to follow it.



posted on Aug, 5 2009 @ 11:53 PM
link   
reply to post by The time lord
 


Matthew 19:8 would make a lot of people mad!!


Re: Corruption of bloodlines. Looks like still happening today
The flood didn't end it, the genocides, etc..

When the time comes, I will not even attempt to resist, perhaps it's the only way we can have our honor back - to sacrifice the vessel that has become the foothold of evil. Sometimes victory can even come in death.

[edit on 5-8-2009 by ahnggk]



posted on Aug, 6 2009 @ 12:07 AM
link   
The OP point is well received, the Mosaic Law was for Jews and those that would convert to Jewish proselytes if they wanted to live within Israel. Remember during the old testament days you had to live within Israel if you wanted to serve God. This was the only channel available.

The old law was never for the gentiles that began to embrace the message beginning with Cornelius.
These old laws help us to understand God's thinking in many matters. For example Adultery had the death penalty, however fornication, between to single people called for them to be only married not killed.

What do we learn from this ancient law that no longer applies, God views Adultery as a very serious sin. But fornication well wrong didn't carry the death penalty so whereas it's still a sin it's just not as bad in God's eyes.
We can learn many thing from the ancient laws of Israel about how God views matters, and it still has value to us today.

But it is virtually impossible to uphold it's standards 100%, nor does God expect us to. Stoning sinners, circumcision, animal sacrifices, and we could on but most understand that we just can't do it, thankfully God no longer requires us to anyway.



posted on Aug, 6 2009 @ 01:02 AM
link   

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
But it is virtually impossible to uphold it's standards 100%, nor does God expect us to. Stoning sinners, circumcision, animal sacrifices, and we could on but most understand that we just can't do it, thankfully God no longer requires us to anyway.




Stoning sinners....
No longer part of the law because Jesus shall judge along with the resurrected saints.... man cannot judge itself without being hypocritical. The punishments, though different, didn't go away. The punishment is to be carried out at the time of Judgement if the person doesn't repent.

Circumcision....
As the New Testament points out in Paul's writings, circumcision in the physical sense is no longer required. The circumcision of the heart is what's required. It's a spiritual circumcision that deciphers God's people from others just as the physical circumcision did for Israelites. Circumcision is not done away with, it's just spiritual in nature.

Animal Sacrifices....
Animal sacrifices were usually in the form of sin sacrifices that the high priest would perform on behalf of the people of Israel for forgiveness of sin. Seeing that Jesus was the "ultimate" sacrifice and has taken the role of the High Priest, we no longer need to slaughter animals to burn on altars. This is the basis of what Jesus spoke of in Matthew 5:17 in fulfilling the law.

So you see, none of these aspects were done away with, but are recognized in a different manner now. God's people are "spiritual Israelites" and only with the Holy Spirit can we follow God's spiritual Laws of the Ten Commandments fully.



posted on Aug, 6 2009 @ 08:18 AM
link   
reply to post by Locoman8
 


So the physical parts of the law are done away with then according to your post.

And now they are spiritual laws for spiritual people, is that correct?

If so there is no doubt that at least at one level the New Testament and Jesus DID change it.



posted on Aug, 6 2009 @ 08:21 AM
link   
Thank you all for your replies,
I am sorry to say that the thread has been moved downstairs to BTS so you will have to log in again to reply here.

Also Like the rest of the Bible the practices is for the believers, it does not say go around and judge unbelievers but just within your circle of faith there are certain ways to behave and those behaviours are not evil in anyway way that I can find. It does not say slay people who fall out of faith it does not say treat women badly or your own kids, in fact it is almost too kind for some people to live up to, maybe that is why they leave the faith.

I found this interesting contempory verse that people may find interestig in todays world or extremist who persecute Christians in this modern world.

John 16
1"All this I have told you so that you will not go astray. 2They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. 3They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. 4I have told you this, so that when the time comes you will remember that I warned you. I did not tell you this at first because I was with you.


Today people still see it as a service to God to blow up and kill people, it applies today I feel, its quite chilling to read.

As for Marriage 1 Corinthians 2 is an interesting read, again the emphasis is for Christians circles but does not mean non believers can not agree on the principles it shows. For the ancients these scriptures were the education of society and they were better off following the example of the Bible.

Also I like to add, when Jesus spoke when he was alive he was not yet made sacrificed, so once that occured even more bonds were broken that the Jews were under and then after the gift of the Holy Spirit led the way with its power and wisdom that was breathed into the apostles.

[edit on 6-8-2009 by The time lord]



posted on Aug, 6 2009 @ 09:30 AM
link   
reply to post by The time lord
 


The problem with this view is that it is just a dichotomy Christians created to avoid the problems with the Bible taken as a whole. I have never seen such mental gymnastics as is required with the entire "new covenant" idea. Wouldn't it just be much easier, and saner, to say the Bible is a book written by many people over thousands of years, and is a human product? Sure, it may contain wisdom here and there, but any book supposedly written by an omniscient, omnipotent Supreme Being would be much more monolithic and sensible than is the Bible.

Peace,
Daniel



posted on Aug, 6 2009 @ 09:35 AM
link   
reply to post by The time lord
 


Also, I might add that getting to a place of separating the Jewish and Christian Testaments in such a delineated way requires innumerable improbable assumptions about who Jesus was or claimed to be. In order to believe in this dichotomy, one would have to accept that Jesus was indeed the promised Messiah, come to redeem humankind through his shed blood.

I, for one, cannot believe that. It is, in fact, a repulsive idea to me that someone innocent should take care of all my sh*t. So rather than people having a hard time understanding the differences between the Jewish and Christian testaments (as you claim is the case), I think it's rather a case of people disagreeing with your basic premise of who Jesus was or claimed to be.

Those of us who do not believe Jesus was God in the flesh, come to save us from eternity in hell, do not have a problem differentiating between the Jewish and Christian testaments. We simply have a problem with the Bible as a whole when it is held up to be the inspired, infallible word of God.

Peace,
Daniel


[edit on 6-8-2009 by pdpayne0418]



posted on Aug, 6 2009 @ 09:36 AM
link   
reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 


To follow them physically in the sense of what Jesus fulfilled, would be outdated. I'm referring to the levitical laws of sacrifice since Jesus Himself became the levitical system and High Priest. As for the Ten Commandments, God's spiritual laws, I feel that though following the laws physically is demanded by God.... It's only in the spiritual sense of understanding these laws that they become a way of life. Just as Jesus taught us. They physical form of "you shall not murder" is just that. Don't kill people. Jesus gave the spiritual side to this law in saying 21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire."

Anger is spiritual murder. Lust is spiritual adultery. This is the true nature of the Ten Commandments. Don't just not murder. Don't be angry either.

As I said before, most people will agree on 9 out of 10 commandments but why such animosity toward the holy Sabbath? As Jesus mentioned if you teach men to break the least of these commandments, you shall be considered least in the kingdom of heaven. Those words always get me. Just figure it out, what is so spiritual about the 7th day of the week (saturday)? That day was made for MAN, not just Israel.



posted on Aug, 6 2009 @ 01:40 PM
link   

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 


As I said before, most people will agree on 9 out of 10 commandments but why such animosity toward the holy Sabbath? As Jesus mentioned if you teach men to break the least of these commandments, you shall be considered least in the kingdom of heaven. Those words always get me. Just figure it out, what is so spiritual about the 7th day of the week (saturday)? That day was made for MAN, not just Israel.


The 7th day of the week is the sign of creation and if we give it up we are saying God's creation was worthless so I believe. I guess since we are in his image we shall continue his likeness, man still has not got over the curse of Sin so I guess it's a sign saying do not forget this or Him (God) and his works. Nature has its own cycle system with days and months and years and even signs in the heavens. Apparently the human body is in tune with the every 7 days system because the heart slows down durying the week cycle. I read that in a book somewhere and there are other things that go deeper of course.

Even the Old Testament changed before it even got to the New Testament, events as such as Noah's flood, man then was able to eat meat, so the message is the slow relationship with God that openned new doors to our own salvation. No one else has to go through what Abraham or Moses did, they did their part then and it openned new paths to freedoms and being our own judges since we understood sin, sin also become larger in knowledge and with it more laws and judgements.
www.biblelife.org...
This goes comes down to Dispensationalism which is a specific Christian theological view that teaches specific periods of time called dispensations form the framework through which God relates to mankind.

There were many different covenants in the Old Testament (agreements) with God so things changed slowly for the better.


Also to add, Jesus came to save us not only for our selves but from Satan, there is this on going power battle on earth, since Jesus took the Morning Star title back from Satan he can now pass those titles onto others who follow him. Jesus died for us but it was also a way to defeat Satan who decieved the Angels in Heaven too, the meaning was much larger and now Jesus is not just Lord but Lord of Lords and is the King of Kings, he has a new title and authority over everything otherwise it all just goes to Satan for him to do what he wants.




[edit on 6-8-2009 by The time lord]



posted on Aug, 6 2009 @ 08:05 PM
link   
reply to post by The time lord
 


I agree with that. The word testament is another way of saying "covenant" which is what it means with "new testament" or "old testament". As you said, the old testament had a series of covenants. The new covenant of the new testament was shown to us at the passover meal Jesus had at the Last Supper with the bread and wine symbolism. None of this eliminated God's spiritual laws of the Ten Commandments though.



posted on Aug, 7 2009 @ 03:50 PM
link   
I just hope people on ATS and other viewers alike may become either less ignorant of applying Old Testament laws when they are not needed and for the non believers to see that it's about change, and the Old Testament is a record book of things ancient and not everything today applies to the same modern world. Of course other religius sects will try and use the excuse of old laws but that is more down to control.



posted on Aug, 7 2009 @ 04:09 PM
link   
reply to post by The time lord
 

Of course other religius sects will try and use the excuse of old laws but that is more down to control.
Can you be more specific? Who is this doing the "controlling" and how are they doing it? You mean obeying God? Is that it? Everything is nice and dandy, right up to the point where God demands something of you, then religion is just a manipulation? As long as it is just someone giving you what you want, then that is not manipulation? How about the idea of a religious person saying God demands nothing? Who would want you to believe that? Could it be . . . Satan?



new topics

top topics



 
7
<<   2  3 >>

log in

join