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Originally posted by newworld
reply to post by silent thunder
I completely forgot this one. Let's say that for some reason the christian god is real, and I decide to turn christian. since i was an atheist, and have obviously committed blasphemy, then it means i'm basically screwed right?
hypothetically speaking, it wouldn't make any difference for me anymore if i turned christian in 40-50 years, because i would still be damned to hell.
wow, this really makes me wonder if christians read this part of the bible, they should give up on atheists since we literally have no hope left if the bible happens to be accurate
Originally posted by silent thunder
Preliminary note to aggressive athiests: yeah, yeah, sky faries, imaginariy tales, inb4 too weak to think for yourself, etc. We get it. Peace, bro.
For those of us more interested in the nuance of doctriene, I've always found the concept of there being a SINGLE unpardonable sin both fascinating and terrifying. The blood of Christ washes away the sins of the repenters, sure...but what if you committitted the UNPARDONABLE SIN and wanted to be washed in the blood of lamb but couldn't?
What, exactly, is this sin that prevents all parndon, even as Christ clasps repentant child molesters and serial torturuers to his chest?
LUKE 12:10: "And everyone that says a word against the Son of Man, that will be forgiven; But he that blasphemes against The Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
MARK 3:29: "Whoever blasphemes against The Holy Spirit will never have forgiveness, but is guilty of everlasting sin."
MATTHEW 12: 31-32: "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come".
This is some hardcore stuff they are laying down.
AND YET... these definitions seem somehow...well, a bit vague to me. For example, how does a man literally committ this sin? What leads him to it ? Can it be comitted uknowingly? Is it often comitted? What is its fundamental nature? Why of all sins is this the ONLY unpardonable one?
Thoughts?
Originally posted by Mr. Toodles
Hmm. Seems like putting a middle finger to the sky and telling the holy spirit to go die would prolly guarantee eternal damnation. Its not so bad though. I did it a bunch of times.
Originally posted by silent thunder
Originally posted by newworld
reply to post by silent thunder
I completely forgot this one. Let's say that for some reason the christian god is real, and I decide to turn christian. since i was an atheist, and have obviously committed blasphemy, then it means i'm basically screwed right?
hypothetically speaking, it wouldn't make any difference for me anymore if i turned christian in 40-50 years, because i would still be damned to hell.
wow, this really makes me wonder if christians read this part of the bible, they should give up on atheists since we literally have no hope left if the bible happens to be accurate
Being an athiest is not an unpardonable sin. Repentant athiests are welcomed back into the Church. This was decicively settled at the end of the Late Antique period with the Donatist controversy.
You take Christans to task for not even reading the bible, but it seems you may not have read my OP very carefully. Again, athiesim is not unpardonable, and neither (as spelled out in the bible) is blasphemy, Its just this one mysterious sin specificually directed not against God in general but THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Why was this aspect of miscoduct so structly singled out by the apostolocs?
Just What Is “The Unpardonable Sin”?
Jesus spoke of a sin that “shall not be forgiven...neither in this world, neither in the world to come” (Matt. 12:31-32). This sin is most often referred to as “the unpardonable sin.”
Widespread confusion surrounds this subject. So many people worry that they may have committed, or did commit, the unpardonable sin. Yet most have not known how to recognize the sin that “shall not be forgiven.”
As a longtime pastor who has worked with many thousands, I have counseled scores of people who were racked with fear, anxiety and concern that they were guilty of this sin. It was often very painful to watch confusion, misunderstanding and guilt unnecessarily grip people who still sincerely wanted to serve God, after believing they had committed this unforgivable sin. In many cases, they were absolutely certain that they were guilty of it. Invariably, after counseling with them, it was clear that they were not. But convincing them of this was sometimes not easy.
I have often had to explain that the very act of being concerned is its own proof that one has not gone far enough to be guilty of this sin....
[snip]
Christ Explains Blaspheming the Holy Spirit
Throughout His ministry, Christ was attacked and accused by religious leaders who felt threatened by what He taught.
On one occasion, Christ had healed a blind and dumb, demon-possessed man. The onlookers were amazed when this man could suddenly see and speak. As a result, the scribes and Pharisees “went out, and held a council against Him, how they might destroy Him” (Matt. 12:14). Shortly after this, a Pharisee confronted Christ with a question about where His power to perform this healing came from—and accused Him of casting out demons by the power of Satan: “But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow does not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils” (vs. 24).
Christ knew exactly what was happening and saw their motives were to deliberately attack and accuse (vs. 25). So He explained how Satan’s kingdom could not be divided and survive—“stand.” He continued, “He that is not with Me is against Me; and he that gathers not with Me scatters abroad” (vs. 30).
Incidentally, this means that Christ’s Church is unified. Some become confused about this. Consider. Even Satan knows that his kingdom cannot be divided and remain “standing.” Certainly, Christ is at least as smart as the devil! People either gather where Christ is gathering, or they are not part of His Church!
This background introduces Christ’s oft-misunderstood statement about the unforgivable sin. Let’s read it: “Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come” (vs. 31-32).
Mark’s account concludes in a slightly different way, so it is also helpful to read: “Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit has never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation” (3:28-29).
Matthew explains that “all manner of sin and blasphemy” shall be forgiven, but that “blasphemy and speaking against the Holy Spirit” are unpardonable—unforgivable. It is critical to know that the Greek word used for blasphemy is the same, whether it is against the Holy Spirit or the Son of man. The key must be who or what is spoken or blasphemed against, not the act itself.
What is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? Is it simply taking God’s name in vain—swearing? Is any form of swearing “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit”?
The key to understanding this is to properly define the word blaspheme. The Greek word, here translated “blaspheme,” means “intentional indignity offered to God or sacred things.” This is important to grasp. Intent is involved.
The scribes and Pharisees knew exactly what they were doing. Remember, they held a council for the specific purpose of plotting against Christ. Their actions were not a result of sudden anger or impulsive, short-sighted thinking. They had intent—pre-meditated and deliberate INTENT—to discredit and murder Christ, even though they knew He was sent from God and acted through God’s power!
Some sins are committed because they have been carefully thought out toward a particular end. Deliberate planning has been involved, as with the Pharisees. When such willful, pre-meditated intent comes into play, one is in grave “danger of eternal damnation.”
Many ask if non-Christians can commit the unpardonable sin. The Pharisees were certainly not converted—not Christians. Yet Christ said their intent placed them in danger of committing this sin. There is the answer!
Many religious leaders today, who profess to believe in Christ, are modern “Pharisees.” They deliberately misrepresent our doctrines—and deliberately call us false prophets. This Work of God is reaching people in most countries of the world in ever-increasing numbers. These false prophets, from the false “Christianity” of this world, love to accuse us of being false prophets, because they, like the scribes and Pharisees who were threatened by Christ’s teaching and healing, are threatened by the good works of truth that we are teaching.
Herein lies another irony that will be better understood later in the booklet. All who are still concerned that they have committed the unpardonable sin almost certainly have not. But many who are not concerned may either have committed it or are in danger of doing so!
Anyone can foolishly curse or use God’s name in vain, and almost immediately be sorry about it and repent. But the unpardonable sin is when a person deliberately hardens himself against God’s Spirit, and the power and guidance of that Spirit. Usually, such people become deceived (Heb. 3:13) early in this process, but later willfully choose to continue in their actions until they destroy both their conscience and any further desire to repent.