If you do not believe in god then I would like to see your response to my question

reply to post by XXXN3O


Given the fact that we are not clones, much less true clones. Our neuronal pathways are different. Body mass+chemical makeup+genetic differences all account for the small variations in neurological capacity. Two people have exactly the same input from life. One is older, one is younger. The older one learns from messing up his life. The younger one learns from the older ones messed up life. The end outcome is the same lesson but the method was different. Therefore the opinion is slightly different. Do this a few trillion times throughout the two peoples lives, and the slight difference add up to two distinct people.

Originally posted by XXXN3O
Science is teaching right now that we all have a brain that is programmed via external stimuli which is true in many ways.

...yes, we all have a brain (lol)... external stimuli is not the only factor in who we are and what makes each person unique... we come out of the shoot hard-wired - and - imo, those congenital attributes (as well as instinct) have a greater impact on who we become than the external stimuli we're exposed to after birth...

Basically what I am saying is that everything we are according to science is an input of what has happened either too us or what has been taught to us.

...could you post a verifiable reference?... i find it hard to believe a peer-supported scientist would make that statement since it ignores congenital attributes and instinct (genetics), which are (at the very least) equally valid factors as all after birth exposures...

The trouble is a semantic one. The term "god" conjures different things to different people. I'm no longer an atheist, but it's only a semantic difference reflecting the meaning I place in the word "god." The atheist insists scientific methodology is the only proper way to understand reality. Yet no atheist can explain why anything at all exists. Science is predicated on action/reaction. What is the original action to explain existence? Clearly science is incapable of answering this question, just as you or I cannot conceive of nothing creating everything. If the atheist is holding on to the big bang, still, why the big bang? So god is a word to describe something transcendental to the scientific principles that are useful for describing the existing material universe. But don't make science your god. There is something else at work here.

reply to post by Republican08

I see it like this, if we all of these 93.3 Billion people are in either Heaven or Hell. Wouldn't we notice this? Wouldn't there be some obvious sign that this is where they are?

You might have read this before, but it seemed humorous to the point you were making...

A true story. A thermodynamics professor had written a take home exam for his graduate students. It had one question: "Is hell exothermic or endothermic? Support your answer with a proof." Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law or some variant. One student, however, wrote the following: First, we postulate that if souls exist, then they must have some mass. If they do, then a mole of souls can also have a mass. So, at what rate are souls moving into hell and at what rate are souls leaving? I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for souls entering hell, lets look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to hell. Since there are more than one of these religions and people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all people and all souls go to hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change in volume in hell. Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in hell to stay the same, the ratio of the mass of souls and volume needs to stay constant. So, if hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter hell, then the temperature and pressure in hell will increase until all hell breaks loose. Of course, if hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in hell, than the temperature and pressure will drop until hell freezes over. It was not revealed what grade the student got.

Source

In regards to the OP, my upbringing has predisposed me to something logic dismisses. I don't think anyone can apply serious thought to the idea of God (even less the Biblical/ Quaranic God) and find it less than extraneous to explaining the world and more. On the other hand, a childhood in Church has left a small doubt. I'd describe the situation as being on the landmass of atheism whilst occasionally dipping a toe in the waters of agnosticism.

I'm old enough to recall the genocide in Rwanda and the famine in Ethiopia. If people want to believe in the Biblical/Quaranic God, they've got a lot of work adding that to the belief system. Babies (ie innocent) tortured, raped or starved to death before a month old? Unbaptized and bound for hell? But 'We're all special' right? Right?!

Belief in god as a bearded old guy watching and judging everyone is a bit far-fetched. To think that god can be comprehended by our simple consciousness is a bit vain also. As for Christianity, no religion has done a better job of taking the old knowledge of symbolism and myth (pagan) and turning it into a guilt-ridden shackled cult for slaves. Perhaps civilization was more brutal in the past, but at least it was honest and didn't deny the darker sides of the human psyche.

look up zeusadam on photobucket.com there is the real deal on cia mk ultra god project. How can this man stand down to nazi atheist????

Yeah good job christians....

GOD was so busy with you praying for good health and happiness that a little girl was brutaly raped and murdered.

Makes sense though, that little girl was a sinner and your a perfect angel. Your so $%^#in special. The anger that comes from that little girl makes me want to reach through this monitor and make you scream.

Abiogenisis was right all along. And look how many people religion killed in the process. Was it needed?

We are all cylons and just haven't realized it yet. People are different because instead of 12 models there are 1 million models. This gives us the term 1 in a million. Ok I kid but I do like the questions.

I do not subscribe to any religion and do not reject anybody based on religious belief. We all have the choice to worship whatever "god" we chose even in those countries that aren't tolerant of other religions. I am an agnostic and if there is a god then I haven't yet seen the proof. I have a scientific mind and need proof but my mind is open to the possibility in a supreme being. Because I have a scientific mind I cannot answer your questions. You can say that we are products of our environment, that we have choice, why does one person have type A personality and why does another have a type B personality for example but the answers aren't as simple as the accepted scientific explanation. The fact is I don't believe science or anyone for that matter can conclusively answer your questions.
The universe is a wonderful, mysterious, magical, unknown, and weird place. Just because science says something is true doesn't make it true. Nobody will ever "truly" know why things are the way they are. I for one am glad that we have all these strange unknowns because it allows me to exercise my mind which is very good for your soul in my opinion. I hope there is a supreme being because it would answer so many questions i have but if there isn't well at least I have tried to make sense of things in my own way.

This argument is insulting and you should be embarrassed by it. Are you really asking these things.....are you a five year old child in 1473? In your own words you say that we "learn" from external stimuli. People.....all people have a different experience on the planet. They see things from a different point of view. A blind man would obviously have a different view of the world and experience everything differently than you and I. That blind man would teach his children to the best of his ability, but his children too would have a different outlook on life. I mean, are you saying that a child in Uganda should have the equivalent experience as a child in America, but does not because god has made us all individuals? You sir, outrage me. You have used your obviously intelligent mind, to indulge in this delusion. Please don't tell me that this story is of our beginnings! Please don't tell me that you are referring to the "first" people. Even if there were just two people on the planet. One Man one Woman. The man would want to mate with the woman, hunt food and play video games.(jk) The Woman would gather stuff and be mated with. These small differences immediately spark an individuality in the people. Their children will learn from the combination of their parents and become a new personality all together....and his children etc. this continues for 40 000 years until a bunch of guys who say they are special come along and say you need to worship a god that started the whole Da*n thing in the first place without ever showing himself. But you knew all of this anyway, look friend there are other possibilities. You don't need this.

Originally posted by XXXN3O

If we are all a product of our environment...

[edit on 4-8-2009 by XXXN3O]

Nope.
No one makes souls, a soul just is.

Also you are making terrible mistake opposing religion and science, because both are false, this is false dilemma. We are all eternal beings capable of what typical "God" can do, but we just forgot this fact for one reason or another.

Originally posted by WorldObserver
Firstly, we are all unique because we have choice. I am not talking about that religious scam called “Free Will”. I am just talking about simple choice.

Next, the difference between our DNA and a chimpanzee is about 3%. So with this in mind it is easy to understand how just a very small change in the gene sequence can bring about large changes in the organism.

So each pair of humans that procreate have the ability to make a new human that can vary by millions of differences. It is like a computer that can make 16 million colors from 3 base colors (Red, Green, Blue).

As for social conditioning – this is where ALL ideas and beliefs on religion and God come from.

Imagine if you were raised in a village that had no pre-taught concepts of God. Plus, this village had a very high level of science and technology, so they could easily understand natural phenomena without relegating to angry / happy gods etc.

You see, living in that village you would have no concept of god, and no need for god. If someone try to explain to you that there is an invisible man that lives in the sky that punishes you for not worshipping him, I think you would fall down laughing! I know I would.

Science explains 0.1% of the whole picture, really. And in most cases it's nothing more than pretentious temporary assumptions that keep changing and being proved wrong. They say the difference between human and chimps DNA is 3%, right?

But they also don't understand 97% of the human DNA. And what they don't understand they classify as junk just so that they can keep feeling smart with that feeling that they've accomplished something on their short existence on this earth. You can call it ego.

If you were raised in a village with no concept of GOD you could still feel the need for it, you just would explain it differently. Religion isn't about a pearly heaven with a beard man that if angry will send you to a fiery hell where red beasts will eat you for all the eternity, that's a really primitive view of the whole thing. But about a higher state of conscience where people connect and feel that they are part of a much bigger thing.

If both science and religion didn't went to opposite extremes, this civilization would be much more evolved and we wouldn't have a 1/3 of problems we do now.

Originally posted by XXXN3O
how are each of us unique if this is the case, and further down the line if you are unique how are people all the way throughout time unique?

Why are we different from each other personality wise?

[edit on 4-8-2009 by XXXN3O]

Well, I think the reason that each of us is unique is due to each of us experiencing different things at different times. Myself and my brother for instance, we are only a year and a half apart and yet we are very different in some ways. I think that this is due to a number of factors: different stimuli during infancy and childhood, slightly different genetic makeup which i assume can affect things such as temperament and intelligence(and physical makeup obviously). I think alot of what makes us individuals is the environment in which we were raised in, the environment in which we currently reside, our personal abilities(such as perception or intelligence). Much of what makes us who we are goes all the way back to the years between 0 and 3, and the development that takes place during those years.
You posed a good query when asking about different beliefs in the same environments. I argue that we can have different beliefs despite a similar environment BECAUSE of the way that we each perceive things individually. Perception is the key to alot of this in my opinion....Now is perception something that is divinely determined? I don't personally think so. I think that ones' ability to perceive is determined chiefly through how the brain is wired. Our brains generally work in the same way, but i'm willing to bet that there are subtle differences between ALL of us.

Hope you enjoyed my take on the subject

Well , I guess it aint much else to say but I feel I should remind you something.
First what you believe is for yourself, your beliefs will only safe your soul and no one elses soul. Believers should keep their gods for themselves, it is right to go to church if that brings you comfort. It is right to meet with other believers to talk about your god. It is right to sing or pray to your god alone or with many others.
But, please do not forget something, as individuals everybody has the right to believe in whatever they want, or simply in nothing. It is not your duty to convince other people to your god, as you found god other people will, but at their own time. God might exists or not, nobody knows, neither do you. It is beyond our intelligence, we could not understand even if we see it.
So please use this space to share experiences, conspiracies, videos of the inexplicable but don't try to convince people as we do not try to convince you to stop believing.

Btw, we aren't all unique, that aint true, we are all the same, no differences whatsoever, it is just we haven't realized yet.

I would like to ask any non believers if they think they have a soul?

If they do have a soul, where does it come from?

If you don't have a soul then I do not want to be around you.

I just don't buy the idea that we evolved from slime. Who knows, maybe people who don't have souls evolved from slime and people who do have souls evolved from something different or some type of manipulation.

I guess the only real way to test this belief is to die but then you wouldnt be around to tell anyone what you experienced. What a great mystery

Originally posted by strNick

Originally posted by XXXN3O

If we are all a product of our environment...

[edit on 4-8-2009 by XXXN3O]

Nope.
No one makes souls, a soul just is.

Also you are making terrible mistake opposing religion and science, because both are false, this is false dilemma. We are all eternal beings capable of what typical "God" can do, but we just forgot this fact for one reason or another.

that has been brainwashed out of us with TV, prescription drugs and our culture/enviroment. good post.

First I want to say that I am myself a Christian and my purpose is not to devalue anything you said in your opening post.

That being said, you assume that all intelligence is taught and this is not correct. Carl Jung's experiments have proven without a doubt that there are inherited intelligences that are encoded into our genome. Amongst these are our most basic instincts: survival, the need to seek shelter, substance...etc. However there are others also, for example, paternal instincts; no-one has to teach a mother how to nurture a child, they have done studies on this on quite a few occasions and found that even when isolated from birth a woman has a natural instinct of how to mother her young. Carl Jung called these collective unconscious and the example I gave is referred to as the mother archetype.

No one really knows for sure how many and what intelligences are from the collective unconscious as there are too few cases of isolation from society and peers to accurately be able to assess, not to mention that deliberate isolation would be considered highly unethical. I would suggest though that spiritual beliefs may in fact be a part of this and I will give my reason.

Somewhere along the path through our evolution if you want to call it that, an individual felt that there was something more to life than this shell we live in, who knows it could have happened to many people around civilization. These individuals no doubt spoke to other people and soon found that many people shared this feeling. The next step obviously was to figure out why. I am going to try to avoid using biblical references as to avoid the naysayers responses. But eventually they must have found some sort of answer that was either acceptable or evidenced to the others. I know that everyone is going to assume that these ancient races were stupid or naive and couldn't possibly reason any better to understand. I would argue in this case that in numerous ways these people were superior to us in their knowledge. Look at their understanding of the heavens, these people could track the stars and eclipses more accurately than we can. The Sumerians, one of the if not the first civilizations had extensive knowledge of the heavens as well as agriculture and architecture. These people were not ignorant, in fact they were hundreds if not thousands of years ahead of themselves. Things like the Baghdad battery still baffle scientists as to how these "ignorant" people could possess such knowledge.

So to say just because they lived thousands of years ago that they were incapable of logical reasoning is simply naive on our part.

The question begs to be asked, how did they come to believe in God(s)? Something had to happen to convince them of this. A simple earthquake or storm or volcanic eruption is a convenient excuse, but would you really believe that halfheartedly? I don't. I believe these people were much smarter than we want to give them credit for, which is nothing more than a sign of our own arrogance.

In closing I am going to say this:

To anyone whom wants to ridicule me for my belief in God ask yourself this question.

What has it hurt me if I am wrong? I will have lived my life by a code so to speak and shown love and kindness to those whom have come in contact with me. The worst thing that is going to happen to me is that I am remembered as a kind and loving person. The best thing that happens is that I am right and I spend eternity in Heaven.

On the other hand, those whom do not believe;

The best thing that is going to happen is that you are left with the same scenario I had as the worst thing that happened to me.

The worst thing that can happen....well I'll leave that to your imagination.

Live your life however you want, that is your own "free will".

Uhh, not again (and again and again) : Some religious retard who thinks he can prove 'GOD' and SANTA and the BOGEYMAN via Pseudo-Logic.

Go here :whywontgodhealamputees.com...

at least try to understand it (even if it's too hard for you). Or else go play with your imaginary friend JESUS.

we'll go one at a time...

"Science is teaching right now that we all have a brain that is programmed via external stimuli ... everything we are according to science is an input of what has happened either too us or what has been taught to us."

-Science is not teaching that this is the exclusive method of our development.

"That raises the question, how are each of us unique if this is the case, and further down the line if you are unique how are people all the way throughout time unique?"

-because your underlying argument (which you decided 'we' believe) is incorrect.

"If we are a product of our parents then they are a product of their parents but what caused any difference in the orignal people on the planet who had kids if you get how far back I am going here?

-because we're a lot more complex than PEZ dispensers. plus since we combine the DNA from 2 parents the result is not the same as the previous generation.

"If we are all a product of our environment then why do some people choose to believe in things that others do not in the same environmental circumstances?"

-coming to any specific choice required all the choices and experiences before it. chaos theory in action. random chance + intention leads us to every situation we experience. largely learning about outside stimulus through pattern recognition we identify what makes sense, what fits in the pattern through emotion colored glasses. no two environments are ever the same when the larger picture is taken into context. i could be in an enclosed well lit room, feel comfortable and fall asleep. you might get clausterphobic and panic, but it's the same room. the environment of the room being the same for both was not a factor.

"If we are all a product of our education then why do some have a natural feeling that they are being lied too and later they find that there is lies."

-we're not solely a product of education and no two educations are the same. also, some people might be better than others at identifying the patterns. intelligence, experience, and emotions alter each persons perceptions and intake of "facts."

"Why are we different from each other personality wise?"

-see above... but beyond this any species with longevity must have either diversity or a niche. if you're niche and your sustaining environment dies, you die. sometimes you survive if the change was gradual, or the evolution sudden enough. a diverse species may see many mass semi-extinctions, but those that are adapted, or adapting can survive if there are enough of the right freaks.

"How do you explain someone such as any of the prophets existing or Jesus?"

-organized religion has long been a tool of control. bind people through the ethereal to command the corporeal. i would have used the same method if i were trying to be in charge back then. Jesus could have been about as real as a unicorn. the only difference is that there are more books about unicorns.

"How could anyone with one parent succeed in life if we are a product of our parents influence?"

-see above... and, this is a pretty ridiculous question.

"I am sure that people should see where I am coming from here."

-nope, you've thrown logic out the window in order to suit your point.

"Where do your thoughts come from if the brain is not pre programmed by all the things in life you experience including all of the above?"

-this question makes little sense, but if you're asking where your consciousness comes from and goes too... no where. it's another biological adaptation which proved out over time to be the best we chanced on and bred for over time to end up here. we were simple to build and are complex to figure out. uncountable billions of tiny choices, chances, influences, perhaps not even measurable, but we are the current calculations product. set in motion by and sustained by chemistry.

if this makes you feel empty, then take comfort that your self delusion is shared by many others.

reply to post by XXXN3O

Just a little background first -

Your OP said :
If you do not believe in god then I would like to see your response to my question

This implies firstly that you are interested in responses only from those who do not believe in God, and secondly that you have a single question to ask ... but then you go on to state several questions -

how are each of us unique if this is the case, and further down the line if you are unique how are people all the way throughout time unique?

If we are a product of our parents then they are a product of their parents but what caused any difference in the orignal people on the planet who had kids if you get how far back I am going here?

If we are all a product of our environment then why do some people choose to believe in things that others do not in the same environmental circumstances?

Why are we different from each other personality wise?

How do you explain someone such as any of the prophets existing or Jesus?

How could anyone with one parent succeed in life if we are a product of our parents influence?

Where do your thoughts come from if the brain is not pre programmed by all the things in life you experience including all of the above?

And, to summarize you state -

I see no answer as to how it is impossible that we actually have a soul that is using the brain while we are here.

Which I am going to guess is the real issue for which you would like some feedback from the forum.

This will be my 'working hypothesis' anyways, and I would like to offer a response here ...

First of all, it is my view that so called 'science' is first and foremost the modern state religion and it is used in this capacity by the state as a powerful propaganda tool. Any honest individual who reviews the state of modern 'science' must certainly arrive at the conclusion there is no doubt it is a faith-based practice controlled by its own 'high priesthood' and believed in by all the 'acolytes' of science ...

Secondly, if we, as human beings are merely the result of all the things we have experienced since birth, then it would not be possible for reports like this ( fully documented, by the way ) to occur -

Medical technology explains about after life scenarios and reincarnation - what Hinduism has been saying for five thousand years

Shanti Devi was born (or perhaps more accurately stated, reborn) in Delhi in 1926. When she was four years old she made a startling declaration to her family: "This is not my real home! I have a husband and a son in Mathura! I must return to them!"

The young girl was able to provide many details of her past life, including descriptions of her previous home and family in Mathura. At the prompting of Mahatma Gandhi, a team of researchers was put together to examine her claims. According to reincarnation expert Dr. Ian Stevenson, Shanti Devi's past life memories matched the facts uncovered by the panel's investigation.

Swedish journalist, Sture Lonnerstrand, also looked into the case of Shanti Devi. After an extensive investigation he concluded, "This is the only fully explained and proven case of reincarnation there has been."

Source : IndiaDaily.com

Thirdly, anybody who really believes they are some kind of 'cosmic accident' is certainly entitled to believe their great-great-...-great grand daddy was a random piece of slime, but my own predilictions tend toward -

Genesis 1:27

And God made man in his image, in the image of God he made him: male and female he made them.

Source : bible.cc

Or, in the hermetical language of alchemy -

As above, so below

In accordance with the various levels of reality: physical, mental, and spiritual, this relates that what happens on any level happens on every other. This is however more often used in the sense of the microcosm and the macrocosm. The microcosm is oneself, and the macrocosm is the universe. The macrocosm is as the microcosm, and vice versa; within each lies the other, and through understanding one (usually the microcosm) you can understand the other.

Source : Wikipedia

Or, again, if one prefers the sublime glamours of mathematics -

[The] Fractal [Cosmos]

A fractal is generally "a rough or fragmented geometric shape that can be split into parts, each of which is (at least approximately) a reduced-size copy of the whole," a property called self-similarity.

Source : Wikipedia

Finally, IMHO your thread raises an important issue we should each look into for ouselves as deeply as possible.