These Little Ones being born now are...missing something

reply to post by dgtempe


This is a very very very important thread dgtempe, first and foremost thank you for posting this. S&F.
I've been looking into this for quite some time now, there are also another 2 threads as important as this, they're lost somewhere in the jungle of ATS. Unfortunately I cannot come up with any solution right now, the problem is not local, it's global. And the children's fate are tied to the current psyche of the adults. It's a generational curse, and not necessarily run along the family line. It means the problem starts with the adults (their generated environment) or the current culture of the adults at the country of your residence.

Originally posted by Helig
If meds and mental health professionals cannot help them unfortunately I suspect they are beyond the scope of being handled by normal people. Turning them over to the state might be the only reasonable choice if you really do feel they are doing more harm than good remaining in the custody of your son. No amount of one-sided love is worth running one self into the ground over, just keep that in mind.

you want to hand them the "med" professionals? and meds?
mate, do you work for the bastards we despise the most?

your advice is poison.

give them music, lots and lots of love, keep them away from artificial EVERYTHING, put them on an organic diet, raw garlic etc, tea....

DONT give them meds.

the only meds you should give them are purely holistic meds, and by that i mean tea regularly. you need to get their thinking right 1st, give them sport and music, i know what i am talking about my friend

o

edit - cannot spell today...

[edit on 7-8-2009 by Silverse]

i got spanked plenty when i was a kid. i even got spanked at school. WITH A PADDLE. some of you are so wussyfied, that its scary, and i doubt we will see a reduction in people turning into absolute aholes with a liberal approach to corporal punishment.

i remember i did something bad, and my dad came in to spank me with a belt. i was running in circles around him (bad idea). the belt whipped around my thigh and actually bruised me. hurt like hell. didnt do it again though.

i tried using magazines and multiple layers of underwear if i knew i had done something and i was going to get it. never worked. cant be smuggling a years supply of highlights magazine without someone noticing.

i think if i had of just been "scolded" then i would be a terrible person now. i remember just cursing people who put me in a corner, but actually respected someone who just punished me like an authority and got over with it.

all kids are terrible. they are proven to lie about everything just to see if they can. its the basis for cultural placement. see what they can and cant do. if you treat them like simple-minded "little people", then they will own you. treat them like demons who need to be on a leash, you might make it somewhere.

of course i never said dont love them afterwards.

theres a story i heard somewhere.

this single mom is trying to raise boys. they are terrors. a mob guy comes up and is wanting money from her, and one of the boys said something rude. the guy looked at the kid and raised his hand like he would hit him. the boy immediately stopped. the mom asked how he did it. he said, "Just got to make them think that you will kill them, thats the only time they respect you"

ill leave with a quote.

“Since it is difficult to join them together, it is safer to be feared than to be loved when one of the two must be lacking.”
-"The Prince" Machiavelli
(that means if you cant be loved to be respected, then you better be scary, otherwise youll just get walked over)

just dont get social services called on you

also i think slapping with an open hand is ok in the eyes of the law. closed fist is a def no no. paddles, wooden spoons, belts, switches are all really good tools, but not sure how some places differ on their use.

smaller the switch, the more it hurts

a good slap across the back of the legs is required. almost every animal on the planet uses violence to control its offspring

]Their father has a nice home for them, everything they could want, they go to psychiatrists, they take meds to lessen their Hate they have for everyone.

Its not working.
yes it is working, psychiatry will warp anyone,letting others raise your children and having a ineefective no discipline approach to children is a disaster.the mental profession will ruin them forever and the father is lost . Take them to a funeral of a child and explain to them that if they do stupid # and behave nasty that is where they will be.

I don't know...some say that dicsiplne would make a bigger wall, but mabey they need to be broken first before you can rebuild them?

I know if I didn't have my own son to protect from these types of kids I might do a good job working with them.....

I used peer pressure in the past.....it works....everyone one gets to do fun things, and if someone screws up they are left out, not for 5 minutes, but until they realize it was their own fault and appologize.... (depending on age of course)

This works wonders because they then begin to feel like individuals instead of a team, and realize they are on their own, so their actions will begin to shape their survival, socially and otherwise....

I think the love and praise part to balance it out also works wonders.

Positive reinforcement can be potent when they realize they can also fall from the pedistal.....if they fall hard a few times, they may lean to balance out a bit to stay in the praise books.

I think if your kids are truly afraid of you, you have a real problem there.

I grew up with a father who would resort to verbal abuse and physical punishment for most everything little that I did or didn't do. What I thought or felt didn't matter one bit. I withdrew in fear and I don't think I was ever able to just sit down and haver a conversation or discussion with him comfortably. He was like a drill instructor, and a real bas*ard.

Pretty sad when your kids stop communicating because they're afraid of you. At the same time, I felt very little respect for him in the sense that he never gave a S* about what I thought. It was really rare that I talked to him about anything, he was an enemy to me, someone to be avoided, only spoken to when necessary. That's what happens when the interaction, response or reaction is almost always negative.

Rather than slap a kid, talk to them! Not at them, they're people not some dog to be kicked around. Really communicate and most importantly, that means LISTENING to them too. I had very little trust in my dad, trust that he was able to deal with virtually anything at issue without flying off the handle. It was always keep your mouth shut, so that's exactly what I did.

Fear, lack of trust, that and he never showed any interest in what we did at school or any other projects, tasks or hobbies we might be into. I remember feeling a good deal of frustration as I'd be doing some project something or other that interested me and he never once shared any interest in what I might be doing. I might be fixing my bike, alone. I might be working on my car, alone. I might be playing out in the yard, alone. Sure I had siblings to share things with but they weren't any better at really communicating either. A trait they picked up from you know who.

As for friends, I wasn't allowed to have friends over in his presence. He'd kick them out.

As for the kid in the OP, about throwing a brick at the car windows. I suspect that it was done to show resentment, and perhaps a hidden cry for help. Resentment for not showing an interest in or spending enough time with the kid, sharing pleasant things that the kid liked doing. By cry for help I mean that he did it to say in a probably inappropriate way, "Hey, pay attention to me!" Inappropriate behavior that he picked up from his dad perhaps... acting out violently rather than talking about it.

Kids aren't animals, they have a very good talent for talking, and listening.

I know he wasn't the worst dad in the world, but I felt he could have done a whole lot better. If only I felt comfortable in talking to him, things might have gotten better... but all I ever heard was shut up, and do what I say. No back talk. Ok, fine, if that's the way you want it.

reply to post by peopleunit


That is the problem...... discipline is out of love

abuse is about control and manipulation...

BIG difference.....

Verbally abusing a child instead of showing them love and support will mess them up to the popoint they don't know when they are doionjg right, or when they are doing worng...

That is why balance is needed....you pretty much have to be loving ALL the time, even when disciplining, you use a loving voice and tell them EXACTLY what they did wrong, WHY it is wrong, and WHY it is somthing that could hurt them later on in life if they don't learn to stop it etc....

Sadly, I think too much of these examples come from lazy parenting...emotionally etc...

I know this will sound silly, and most won't do it, but for younger ones, I will get right on their level, and pretend to be a cat or something......purr and meow, be their "cat" friend"...then you will see they have some feelings in there, and if they are mean the cat goes away and I turn into an unhappy looking PERSON instead.....they want the cat back fast...

Also, later on we can both talk about the cat and how much we love the cat, and can they be a cat too etc.....then it gives them a safe arena "in cat mode" to come out of their shell, when pretending to be the cats, or when talking about the cats (or dogs, birds, whatever they like best).....then they can put their shell on in other situations and around other people etc, but you can reach them and they can heal in an indirect way....



Then again, this requires giving them a lot of attention, and most of the problem is caused by them not getting enough attention, so unfortunalty a lot of people won't take the time for this stuff...

Een the most hardened teenagers will be in shock when you tell them not to use potty words, because gils won't like em etc....there is allways SOME way to appeal to them.

Unfortunatly with my own son now, I don't have time for other kids until he is older and well set in his personality, without these poor sad influences around.

How old are the children? I've read all the posts, albeit some of them quickly, but maybe I missed the children's ages ?

I think the problem is your son, OP. Then will qualify that by stating that I'm sure he's doing his best.

However, if two children are aware (as they obviously are) that they can bring a grown man to his knees (as they did) then first of all, it's your son who has to get help. Otherwise, it's the blind leading the blind.

As you (OP) have formed the opinion the children are inherently 'evil', then it would be best if you kept right out of it for the foreseeable future. Not intending to hurt your feelings and can understand WHY you consider them evil, but you're not helping .. even though you might believe you are .. and in fact you may well be exacerbating the situation.

Your son has to get help from UNemotional, intelligent others. Maybe professionals. Or maybe successful parents in the neighbourhood or those he might know. He needs to get professional councelling, too, so that he's got his own head on straight before any more damage is done.

He may have custody, but that's not enough to make a successful parent. And for sure, these kids need a calm, considered ADULT in charge. So he has to get himself sorted out and fast, or this is going to end in tragedy.

We know nothing of how the marriage broke down or the circumstance of the final separation and the custody details. But most of us know that even when one or both parents is a substance abuser, marriages rarely end amicably. Usually, the families get involved to some degree. There is fault-finding, recriminations, accusations, blame, disparaging remarks made about the 'absent' parent and all the drama of the divorce and custody and property settlements.

Now, ten to one, your son's children have been privy to some or even all of this. Yes ?

And as the mother is described here as a drug user, we can almost gaurantee that those children have heard you and your son referring to her in less than complimentary manner. You and your son may feel justified in your opinions of the mother. And for all we know, you may BE justified.

But, to those children, she is their mother. In years to come, they may form the same or even harsher opinions of her than those of you and your son. But right now, all those kids know is that she's out of their life ... and her place has been filled by your son and you.

Yes, in the long run, the kids may be better off with your son and you. But kids don't think long-term.

All they know is, they're stuck with their father and to lesser extent .. you.
And they're giving it to you in spades, because they can. Because your son falls to the ground when they break his stuff. They're treating him like a kid, because they can, because he's reacting like one.

I know that sounds cruel. He's obviously at the end of his tether and who could blame him. His marriage has ended and he's stuck with two kids who won't co-operate and who are hostile. Kids are cruel little beggars, especially when they have the upper hand. They're probably thrilled to have such POWER over all you adults. They're getting attention for their antics. They know they have all you adults bluffed. And they're getting to act out the pain, fear, sense of rejection, sadness, confusion that THEY feel over the divorce, loss of their mother, etc.

Beatings, bribes, threats, punishments .. these aren't the prime solution.

What your son has to do somehow is get those kids to want his approval and to shrink from his disapproval. The word we usually use for this is 'respect'. When children seek your approval, you don't have to raise your voice or your arm.

Ok. Whose approval DO you think they might yearn for, OP ? A neighbour ? A local friendly policeman or some other 'good guy' -- a particular teacher at their current or previous school ? Try to work it out. Try hard. It could be one of the psychiatrists to whom they're exposed. There has to be someone.

Then, when you find that someone, your son needs to approach that person and ask them to lend a hand. If the children see your son on equal and friendly terms with an adult they genuinely respect, the respect will .. in their minds ... transfer to your son, also, as in 'Gee, my hero likes my Dad'. That's Step One .. an 'emergency' stop-gap, basically. The finger in the dyke.

Step All the Way Through is for your son to get some counselling for himself. His own self esteem has to be built up, the sooner the better. He needs to be taught to be able to step back from the fray and see this situation for what it is .. a couple of kids acting out and determined to punish the very people who are there for them. And he needs, most probably, some grief counselling. His marriage has collapsed. Never mind the details -- the reality is, this current situation is NOT what he envisaged on his wedding day. It's his worst nightmare. His OWN dreams have been shattered. And even though it probably had to happen and was inevitable .. and even though he's probably better off out of that marriage than in it --- he's still grieving, somewhere deep down. And he needs to acknowledge that and get some help to get through it. Until then, he's just as damaged as his children.

After that, he needs practical help .. financial advice, for example. And maybe he could get to the point where he could pay someone to come in and attend to basic housework a few times a week. And when he's on his feet, maybe he could pay someone to tutor the kids after school a few times a week, or on weekends. The benefits in the above are obvious, for both your son and the children.

The reality is this: the kids are there and will be there for years to come. They CAN learn to respect boundaries. They CAN become decent citizens. This CAN be fixed. Your son CAN make a decent, fulfilling life for himself and his children.

And you, OP, CAN help him with this, but for the moment, it would be better if you did so from the sidelines .. maybe by arranging for someone to assist in the house, or with tutoring for the children, for example.

As much as your frustration is understandable, it's not really helping the situation .. not really helping your son or his children. Maybe you also should get some counselling ? Perhaps you never liked your son's wife? Perhaps you were too involved in the divorce and custody issues ?

reply to post by St Vaast


Star for you. You made some EXCELLENT and well rounded points there.

Some of us may have in a round about way, but you said it the best I would say.

First and foremost, blessings to you and your son, and most of all, the kids. My prayers and best wishes are with you. No one is inherently evil, but it sounds like they've been handed a long road to haul... and, therefore, you and your son also.

I've worked with troubled kids, and I know just how difficult it is - frustrating, discouraging, and heart breaking. But you and your son are the only chance for these kids. If not you, then who? No one. And if you give up, you will never forgive yourself, always wondering what if...

Does the "Tempe" in your moniker refer to the oracle or to the city? If it's the city, I know that the city of Tempe used to offer counseling services on a sliding scale at the library, upstairs (for your son). For the kids, also check out ValuOptions, Arizona Children's Association, and/or Jewish Family & Children's Services. They may be able to provide the same counseling and medical services for the kids, but again, on a sliding scale. Hopefully that will help your son's finances. I wish I could tell you to get the kids off the drugs (aka meds), but I also know that the PTB will not let that happen. Do try to have the dosages minimized to whatever you can, and if possible avoid mixing drugs. I know they're supposed to be "safe," but that's debatable.

Next, as another poster suggested, changes to their diet is vital. You will be amazed. Try to stick to whole, unprocessed foods as much as absolutely possible. Cut out all preservatives, dyes, etc., and especially sugar and fat substitutes. All of these are poison to our bodies - especially children. The body cannot process these substances, negatively impacting the mind and nervous system.

Next, start them on a good multi-vitamin, with the full B-complex of vitamins, and make sure they are food-based vitamins. The B's especially are great for brain function and mood stablization. Given their mother's habits, these are a must. They can take these with any drugs the doctors have them on. If you are in the Phx area, Sunflower Market is awesome - best selection and prices in town. (About half what Whole Foods would charge) You can also use Vitacost.com - even better prices and selection. Shipping is $4.99 for all orders; for an extra dollar, you can get two-day shipping.

For a gentle cleanser and tonic, to eliminate any built-up toxins in their systems, try aloe vera. A couple ounces a day in a glass of juice is plenty. "George's" brand is tasteless, does not have to be refrigerated, and is very gentle to the system (even children). About $20 for a half gallon at Sunflower. If either of the kids have tummy/digestion problems (which is common in troubled kids), the aloe will help that also.

Add exercise to their routine. Their behavior problems might preclude organized sports for now, but there are a ton of videos and such available. Exercise will not only give them a feeling of accomplishment, it will help stabilize their moods by creating endorphins, dopamine, and such. It will also wear them out, help them sleep (which is probably also a problem) and give you all a break!

Coping techniques for the kids and you and your son are also vital. Help them find other options when they become frustrated, bored, or just plain ornery. Make the boy work to pay off the windows. Take away all privileges and luxuries, and make them earn it back. Make it clear that they can earn their way, or they can have nothing, because that's just life. Give them responsibilities, which will give them earned self-esteem and a sense of their own capabilities. And give them choices: You can either do this, or you don't go to the party on Saturday. You and your son must be firm. Don't argue. Don't ask. Tell them.

When you see an improvement, give as much praise, encouragement and love as you can. Even an extra treat - a day at the park or the movies. Whatever. Reinforce the good so they want to be good.

Good luck and God bless

reply to post by dgtempe


You can't punish them? Bull#! Beat the bloody heck outta the loving little brats.


Oh! The DCFS will take them away! Yes let the DCFS have the little hellions and they will reform them fast.

Of course you might have to go to classes to get them back.Just to learn how to appropriately beat the tar outta them.

But it is the learning experience. Most important! Or you can drive out to a lonely country road and beat the tar outta them leave no marks!

The little buggers need to learn who is in charge. Remove their bedroom doors take away the toys. There is no law requiring toys or new clothes. Just food and a roof and cleanliness.

I was raised in a childrens home and I know what I am talking about!

Namaste!

I appreciate the sensible answers. No, my son will not beat them up. He fought for years to get them back and he's not going to rough them up so that some stranger can get them.
He loves his kids very much, and he's only human. I am not saying he is the perfect father, or the perfect person to raise a child. Kids dont come with instructions.

I am more likely to swat them...and believe me, i bite the bullett and dont.
Although i may have the other day. Swated them.

I think he's going to need to get someone involved in their daily lives, or at least a few times a week, so the kids can air out their grievances to someone else.

Anyhow, i appreciate your thoughts and well wishes. Thank you for all the information and suggestions.

Life can be a beatch.

Keep the TV turned of... it's a weapon and will make fixing problems harder.

Far out though... there's no way I'm qualified to give advice with such an extreme situation. Except, I would say to your son (and to you as his support person) don't give up on those kids, keep working and keep trying, forever. I believe it's worth it, I really do.

I think as long as he doesn't give up, your son will make it. This is his life mission now, this is really "it" and he can do it, especially with the backing of his Mum (and you seem like a good Mum).

reply to post by mopusvindictus


Your post (from page 3) seems pretty well informed to me. How did you come to your conclusions?

You seem to have some knowledge on a very complicated subject; I'm certainly interested in learning what you know and how you came to know it.

Originally posted by dgtempe
My son called me, and when i got here i found him on the floor, unable to breath and i had to call 911. He was crying because now he has no car at all.

No offense to your son, but he should have grown up before having kids. This is the behaviour of a 5-year-old.

I strongly suspect that THIS is the cause of your problem. Both of you need to grow some backbone and stop being bullied by these brats!

M'lady Tempe, there is a direct wiring connection between a kid's butt and his brain.

The fastest, most effective method of altering values, behavior, tendencies toward disrespect, and moral center is through a kid's butt.

I can't exactly find it in an anatomy book, but I can promise you the connection from the brain goes right to the butt.

I fear that anatomy books overlook what I absolutely KNOW exists.

But discipline is almost . . . no . . . it's EXACTLY like grabbing a tiger by the tail.

Once you determine to grab the tail, you cannot afford to loosen your grip.

You know why that little rope and stob in the ground is able to hold that great big elephant?

Because when the elephant was very small, he was attached to a very strong rope tied to a well entrenched pipe. Over the formative months, he LEARNED that to pull against the rope and pipe was useless.

So just the hint of a rope and a pipe is required later on.

That's what proper, early discipline will do for a child. Parameters are established, and when violations occur, a swift, certain punishment reinforces those parameters.

And you end up with a respectful, well behaved young man or woman.

I saw kids like this (and worse) when I volunteered for a year in the psych ward for university.

If they're so bad, next time they go on a destructive rampage, grab them, stuff them in the car and take them for a ride to the funny farm! Seriously.

Tell them they're a danger to themselves and others, they have a past history with a psychologist and you want to commit them for observation. They'll break within a few days and will do anything to keep from going back.

I remember this one kid, probably 12, came in after he beat his 16 year old sister in her sleep with a table leg and chased her with a samari sword... He thought he was pretty badass on day 1, swearing and spitting at staff, breaking whatever he could get his hands on, refusing to take medication. By day 2 he realized there were far more ways to take your meds than by mouth and soon became more cooperative. By day 3 he had already reached the bargaining stage and spent most of his time howling for his mom. After 4 or 5 days he had accepted his situation and was coming to terms with being a total assclown to everyone in his life and was released after a week as docile as a hamster.

Regardless of what armchair doctors on here will tell you, psychiatric meds do work when taken correctly. If he has a problem taking them now, I'm sure memories of having them administered by a male nurse with a rubber glove will make him more than happy to after.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, kids ARE evil or sociopaths or however you would like to refer to them as.. I'm not saying ALL of them but a lot of them are. I can't quite put my finger on it (other than being products of our highly flawed consumer society). This story is 100% believable IMO, it's really strange I was just taking to my wife about a situation very similar to this story not too long ago and she agreed with me. Not all, but a lot of children are... for lack of a better word... Disturbed? (I go the tried tested and true route.. Television, Rap / Pop music, Pop-culture and their hypnotic do-this do-that, consume, consume, consume methods must have a hand in programming young minds.)