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reply to post by maybereal11

I am sorry...did I call you or anyone else a "Peon"?

Sorry. It wasn't meant as anything against you. I was just trying to say that WE are peons in the eyes of Congress, yet Congress and the admin. haven't even read the entire bill, so how could they know what is disinformation. It certainly wasn't aimed at you. I guess it came out wrong. I should have been more explicit.

Originally posted by pavil

Originally posted by maybereal11
Looks like again I am going to be the lone voice of descent.

Truer words have never been spoken. It truly is the start of a descent.

What would you have said if Bush had done this????

Ever hear of the "Domestic Survelience Program"?

Whitehouse.gov has been around and responding to rumor as long as the "internets"!

They are looking to address below the radar BS. Stuff so full of lies that even the farthest right wing politicians won't own it and it is spread via anonymous emails. Glad they are responding.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
I was just trying to say that WE are peons in the eyes of Congress, yet Congress and the admin. haven't even read the entire bill, so how could they know what is disinformation. It certainly wasn't aimed at you. I guess it came out wrong. I should have been more explicit.

Somewhat agree.

The argument that most Congressman (on both sides of the aisle) would make is that the bill is lengthy legalese and requires a qualified staff of assistants versed in the law to interpret it properly.

My naive response to that is WTF. Then trim the bill and use plain and direct language. If you need a lawyer to interpet what it means then there is a problem. If the bill is too long to read then make it shorter or find a job where you don't have to read so much...lazy idiots. It's their job!

The legal field can be like the old catholic church when mass was given in Latin. It made the priests feel powerful...for the devout the priests were literally the only means of communicating with God. Then Martin Luther came along and nailed his thesis to church door....and translated the bible from latin to english for the first time.

Scientific language and legal speak can be the same way. I believe in most circumstances plain language suffices and the rest is posturing.

Also...aren't most congressman (both sides of the aisle) lawyers.

Yes...they should read the bill in it's entirety. If they don't understand something....circle it and ask the authors to re-phrase the passage in more direct and explicit language.

More to the point...the folks that will respond from the Whitehouse aren't congressman or senators or even the President, but lawyers and support staff who have read the bill.

And those responses will have a face and name (The Obama Administration) that can be confronted if they are BSing...as opposed to an anonymous email.

so in the end I favor this approach as a tool for finding the truth , but of course I do not assume the response given by the Whitehouse is accurate...but at least you can hold them accountable for lying if they do...as opposed to crazy anonymous emails.

The rest of it?...well, our government is not collecting names and addresses of "dissenters" for rounding up in some end-of-days Nazi like fantasy and if folks think otherwise then there is nothing really I can say to convince them of the contrary. Our governemnt is rather pre-occupied with 2 wars, the greatest economic crisis of our lifetime, failing national industries and yes...reforming a fundementaly efed up healthcare system.

Originally posted by maybereal11

Ever hear of the "Domestic Survelience Program"?

Whitehouse.gov has been around and responding to rumor as long as the "internets"!

They are looking to address below the radar BS. Stuff so full of lies that even the farthest right wing politicians won't own it and it is spread via anonymous emails. Glad they are responding.

I don't think you understand what the Domestic Surveillance program was/is quite frankly or how it even applies to this situation. I don't recall the DSP asking ordinary citizens to report on other ordinary citizens for them exercising their 1st Amendment rights. Even if they could find these people "lying" about Administration ideas, what good does monitoring them do? What is the government going to do to a citizen that "spreads" these "lies"???

Originally posted by pavil
I don't think you understand what the Domestic Surveillance program was/is quite frankly or how it even applies to this situation. I don't recall the DSP asking ordinary citizens to report on other ordinary citizens for them exercising their 1st Amendment rights. Even if they could find these people "lying" about Administration ideas, what good does monitoring them do? What is the government going to do to a citizen that "spreads" these "lies"???

Where did you get the idea that the Whitehouse was looking to "monitor" the individuals that might or might not be spreading lies? These emails are typically anonymous and if they do by some fluke have a name associated with them I have to imagine that our government could easily find these people simply by visiting right wing sites if that was there goal.

Nowhere do they disucss "monitoring" or request names or emails etc. They are interested in What is being spread about, not who.

As far as the DSP...yes I understand it's purpose and THAT was about "monitoring"....see my point?

Edit to add:
en.wikipedia.org...

The NSA warrantless surveillance controversy concerns surveillance of persons within the United States incident to the collection of foreign intelligence by the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) as part of the war on terror. Under this program, referred to by the Bush administration as the "terrorist surveillance program",[1] part of the broader President's Surveillance Program, the NSA is authorized by executive order to monitor, without warrants, phone calls, e-mails, Internet activity, and text messaging, and other communication involving any party believed by the NSA to be outside the U.S., even if the other end of the communication lies within the U.S.

It was later disclosed that some of the intercepts included communications were "purely domestic" in nature, igniting the NSA warrantless surveillance controversy. [1] The technical details of the program are still classified, and it is unknown how many domestic communications were intercepted.

[edit on 6-8-2009 by maybereal11]

[edit on 6-8-2009 by maybereal11]

[edit on 6-8-2009 by maybereal11]

I just made the video on Obamas healthcare program may incite mass murder

I won't post it here because I want peoples opinions on it so I will make a thread about what Obamas healthcare programs will do to people, again thanx ATS for all the good information. I think ur site is very credible!

If Obama was really worried about people being misinformed on his healthcare bill. Then why not put out a series of vides with him addressing the bill page by page, line by line instead of haivng Americans snitch on each other? It would put to rest that he knows what's in it, congress would have no reason not to know what's in it and we'd know from the horse's mouth about it.

Originally posted by Kords21
If Obama was really worried about people being misinformed on his healthcare bill. Then why not put out a series of vides with him addressing the bill page by page, line by line instead of haivng Americans snitch on each other? It would put to rest that he knows what's in it, congress would have no reason not to know what's in it and we'd know from the horse's mouth about it.

unusual and time consuming for a POTUS, but I like the idea.

email them and suggest it.

Well this is just me, but wouldn't it be a good system if those who cannot afford health care was simply told they can do whatever they want if they agree to do something in return. Let's say, clean up graffiti, read 100 books in a year, clean up streets, etc etc.

This is a way to raise the quality of life of these people, so they can use this skill they chose, get good jobs, and in turn afford quality health care.

It could be a kind of service trade. If you don't do it, then maybe you are some how punished, but I suppose it would be a kind of like, more out of your income thing. But still that alone would be initiative to do it.

Originally posted by Hazelnut
No kidding? I thought Southern Guardian was the minister of truth.

Shoot, from now on, everytime I hear something that sounds "off", I'm shooting an email straight to the whitehouse so they can disseminate and propagate the truth!

Like the truth about 9/11?
Or about how safe vaccines are?
Or about how sound the banking system is?

...

reply to post by uswgo


You are an idiot. Are you being paid by big Pharma or are you sponsored by the Republicans. Your lies can affect thousands, if not more of innocent people trying desperately to make decisions based on the lies and fear you and others are spewing. You have no right to spew your lies about this health plan when you know absolutely nothing about the plan. You have absolutely no truths. You are evil beyond words. Come on ATS, where is Deny Ignorance? Can you not see where this idiot is coming from?

This is my first comment on this website, as I have lurked forever....

Is there any difference between the current administration and the Nazi's of the last century?
They espouse populism, while at the same time squashing all dissenting opinion.
They promote a "change" while at the same time laying all "fault" at the feet of their predecessors; Were they not all there when this was happening?
They ask their "army" to get in the faces of those that digress from their profered opinions, while simultaneously labeling all those that use similar attacks as rascists, elitists, and "villians".

And worst of all, I see most of the people who defend him on this site use the "Bush did it first" argument, as though that is supposed to mean something; Wasn't the point of labeling Bush a traitor done so, in order allow those who operate differently a chance to show better results?

That is my rant for the week, thank you for reading.

They were/are monitoring international communications of suspected terrorists that "may" have had one end of the line in the U.S. Name me one specific U.S. non-terror related citizen who had their communications monitored.

Again, why the point of trying to "track" these sites/emails in the first place? Answer me that. What is the reason for the tracking? I'm sure the Obama Administration is aware of the claims on those sites. Can't they take criticism, especially if the claims are so "off the wall"?

It seems to me that they want more that just the facts from the emails and websites. It's really a moot point as I am sure this website is getting jammed with tons emails, overloading it. All that work will probably distract the Administration from real surveillance of really bad people. It seems this Administration is worried more about internal "threats" than external ones.

[edit on 6-8-2009 by pavil]

reply to post by TheTruthShallFreeYou


For a longtime lurker, that was a pretty fine first post. Welcome. Lets hope the Sturmabteilung don't come next.

I can't believe stupid threads like these are getting put on the front page.

If you haven't already done so, watch the movie Sicko by Michael Moore and be thankful there's finally a president who is trying to fix the problem with health care.

US is the -only- western nation that deny their citizens care. If you truly believe Canada, The Euro countries such as UK and France and the rest of Europe, who provides care for their citizens as socialist states than you're truly brainwashed.

Before you go on the bash obama bandwaggon here on ATS why don't you consider the human suffering of those who can not afford the extreme cost of getting sick in the US, those who die because the greedy insurance company found a bureaucratic reason to deny them care even though they had insurance etc...

reply to post by Shades1035


The US is the only western nation with a population of its size, it is also the most vulnerable to economic collapse. All things added up, England and Canada have fractions of our population and stable economies, they can do it. France has energy independence and a bit less corruption, and a stable economy. They can do it.

Until we beat oil, have a larger middle class, AND have a billion population, it will not be able to be afforded.

Right now Health care costs the government 380 billion dollars. Imagine how much it will cost with a bureaucracy.

I support socialism, but not government bureaucratic socialism.

This pretty much puts it down:

www.weirdity.com...

[edit on 6-8-2009 by Gorman91]

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by Shades1035

 

Until we beat oil, have a larger middle class, AND have a billion population, it will not be able to be afforded.

Right now Health care costs the government 380 billion dollars. Imagine how much it will cost with a bureaucracy.

[edit on 6-8-2009 by Gorman91]

The only reason it is so expensive is because the greedy insurance companies take all the money. The health care in itself is not that expensive.

Your other reasons about the population makes no sense at all. UK and France might be smaller (hardly a fraction as you say though, if you add those 2 up you get half of the US )

..however if you take the whole European Union with all the euro countries, incl. UK and France, it has a larger population than the US.. Since it's a tight union with mostly the same health care policies between the different countries it is comparable with the US.

Just face it. Everyone knows the US has a broken health care system that's in the hands of the greedy insurance companies. Obama is trying to fix it and conspiracy threads like this one are just sad......

reply to post by Shades1035


Europe is still not a nation. And a lot of their money comes from us, as Ben Bernake told us:

www.youtube.com...

The more people you have, the harder it gets. And not to mention the fact that European nations such as France have energy independence. And not to mention they don't feel the same tidal waves in the economy as we feel. Most of it is felt by us first.

Also, why do you think a government ran bureaucracy wouldn't replace the current greedy insurance company leaders with simply new government leaders who are just as greedy, if not more (due to their government powers)

The fact remains that until we eliminate the bureaucracy, simply have a bowl a money for the people to take from, have energy independence, and a much larger population and middle class to get money from, universal health care will be unsustainable.

That's laughable. The US do not pay any money to the Europeans. That would be insane since many of the countries are richer per capita. You are just making things up.


Facts are: The US are spending 6000 usd per person more than any other country on earth and the US citizens are not any healthier.

Reason is because of THE GREEDY INSURANCE COMPANIES! They take all the money.

That is the bottom line and pres. Obama deserve real credit for finally trying to fix it, even though it's hard because of all the greedy insurace company lobbyists and false commercials..

Oh, and one thing more. I would actually prefer if Obama would implement a system like Canada's or the European with general health care, but the fact is he is only giving people a choice with a public insurance. It's too little IMO but it is certainly a step in the right direction.....

You can keep the insurance and doctor you have if you prefer, or if you think they are too greedy you can get a public option. What's so bad with another choice?