United States is the largest holder of its own debt

reply to post by the way


You are correct. The opinion voiced by the other poster is a much expressed incorrect statement many make. The Federal Reserve is a for profit corporation

reply to post by johnny2127


Of course!

If the big banking families of europe are propping up the fed, you can be sure they are making big profits somewhere along the line. Don't think they'd be doing it for humanitarian reasons somehow?

reply to post by the way


Here you go:

Who owns the FED? The Rothschilds of London and Berlin; Lazard Brothers of Paris; Israel Moses Seif of Italy; Kuhn, Loeb and Warburg of Germany; and the Lehman Brothers, Goldman, Sachs and the Rockefeller families of New York.

The FED is the only for-profit corporation in America that is exempt from both federal and state taxes? The FED takes in about one trillion dollars per year tax free! The banking families listed above get all that money. Forty cents in every dollar of US taxes.

PDF

reply to post by johnny2127


S and F!!!!

I just learned a lot from from your thread - I had no idea, the amount of debt the U.S. held!

I will be saving this information - great to know.

Thank you for providing it to us and educating us!!

Originally posted by johnny2127
reply to post by Rockpuck

 

Yes they do. I know we cant go back and forth on this. But the Fed isn't just a regulatory board. They are a for profit corporation. Not a govt agency, not a regulatory agency. A for profit bank.

Please. Post your descriptive proof that the Federal Reserve funnels profits from Treasuries to Member Banks.

reply to post by Rockpuck


Just did if you want to read what I posted above....

reply to post by johnny2127


....You um ... you don't actually consider that "evidence"?

I was thinking more along the lines of detailed information per the Federal Reserve and what they do with the funds they receive after a T bill matures...

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by johnny2127

 

....You um ... you don't actually consider that "evidence"?

I was thinking more along the lines of detailed information per the Federal Reserve and what they do with the funds they receive after a T bill matures...

You obviously have missed what I said happens. You asking what happens when the T-bill matures shows you do not understand it. There are more than one type of treasury, a t-bill being on the shorter side actually. What I am saying that they do is receive interest for the bonds that they hold, and also charge a margin of interest for the money they print and put in circulation. These things are all facts. In terms of the money that is paid when the various type of bonds mature, yes those funds are given back to the treasury. But the interest paid until then is kept by the Fed. Same with the interest paid on the currency they print and circulate.

The Federal Reserve is the only for profit corporation in the country that doesn't have to pay any taxes on its profits.

reply to post by Rockpuck


Let me know if you want more info. IMF a good enough source of proof for you? How about the Federal Reserve itself? Just ask for it....... I dare you.

[edit on 4-8-2009 by johnny2127]

Originally posted by the way
Is the federal reserve U.S owned?

Many think not.

According to Wikipedia-

As of February 11, 2009 according to the Federal Reserve Bank of New York the list includes:

BNP Paribas Securities Corp.
Bank of America Securities LLC
Barclays Capital Inc.
Cantor Fitzgerald & Co.
Citigroup Global Markets Inc.
Credit Suisse Securities (USA) LLC
Daiwa Securities America Inc.
Deutsche Bank Securities Inc.
Dresdner Kleinwort Securities LLC.
Goldman, Sachs & Co.
Greenwich Capital Markets Inc.
HSBC Securities (USA) Inc.
J. P. Morgan Securities Inc.
Mizuho Securities USA Inc.
Morgan Stanley & Co. Incorporated
UBS Securities LLC.

Looks like there are huge amounts of capitol invested by British, German, Swiss and Japanese PRIVATE BANKS to me!

Are wutone and myself the only ones who have picked up on the real ownership of U.S debt?

Many of these banks are rumoured to be part of the international banking elite, which many people have connected to the NWO.

Seems fairly alarming to this observer.

And if true, would call into question the accuaracy of the thread title?

Interesting the list provided - all those names sure look familiar - they look like a list of banks TARP money went to. So in other words the Fed Reserve printed and gave money to themselves. They sure have had a nice scam going on.

link to banks that have received bailout money
bailout.propublica.org...

Bailout Recipients
Updated: Aug 4, 2009

Bank of America (Details)
Received other federal aid. See details. Bank (Public) N.C. $52.5 billion

JPMorgan Chase, NA (Details) Mortgage Servicer N.J. $3.4 billion

CIT Group (Details) Bank (Public) N.Y. $2.3 billion

Funny Goldman Sachs isn't on it, - but that was another deal along with Morgan Stanley.

In other words billions were given to their base owning banks.

The people have been fleeced very badly - and what is on top of that - is CONgress did not listen to the millions of people - they went against the wishes of the people.

reply to post by questioningall


Good reply. I have irrefutable proof of the Federal Reserve being a for profit corporation, I am just waiting for the other poster to ask for it.....

Tick tock tick tock...... if he doesn't soon I will though....

reply to post by johnny2127

There are more than one type of treasury, a t-bill being on the shorter side actually. What I am saying that they do is receive interest for the bonds that they hold

They buy the bonds, for sure.. but it's called Monetization for a reason... So .. you're going to have to show proof the Member Banks representing the Federal Reserve are in fact profiting from Treasuries or any other Security DIRECTLY through the Federal Reserve.

nd also charge a margin of interest for the money they print and put in circulation.

The Treasury controls the mints, and thus the circulation.. through Fractional Reserve Banking a much larger portion of wealth is generated through average usury. Through the Federal Reserve purchasing US Debt is a direct infusion of cash without directly printing the money, lets assume the Reserve is buying 7yr notes, it is saying x amount of dollars will inflate the system for y amount of years, the money is then withdrawn, assuming a balanced budget.

But you're being redundant as the "percentage charged" to the "money printed" is the same thing as Monetization .. so you're going to need proof of claim 1. to get the same answer for claim 2.

These things are all facts.

No one's a bigger hater of the FED than I, but I also understand the economics and politics of the institution .. and I disagree with you. So I will say again. Prove it.

But the interest paid until then is kept by the Fed. Same with the interest paid on the currency they print and circulate.

As stated above, it's the same thing. "Printing" and buying the Tbills.. it's all the same thing, it's how they can increase the money supply without directly minting the money (which would be higher inflation than purchasing the bonds) .. The Federal Reserve does not like monetizing the debt, it's bad for the country. And what's bad for the country, is bad for the Reserve.

Proof proof proof, all I want is some evidence!

The Federal Reserve is the only for profit corporation in the country that doesn't have to pay any taxes on its profits.

It's a regulatory board. It's not a corporation. It's not an entity. The Member Banks DO pay taxes. Sometimes. When they make money that is.

IMF a good enough source of proof for you?

The IMF is a beastie unto it's self.. nothing to do with the Reserve.

reply to post by questioningall


Member Banks of the specific states represent the Federal Reserve on the board.. it's the same for many other industries, from cars to insurance. The largest financial firms operating in New York will be the Member Banks of the Federal Reserve of New York. I don't know why Goldman isn't on the NY Feds list, being one of the largest investment banks in the world. I know that the past NY Fed chairman was a Goldman Sachs retiree..

Then again, who in power isn't a former Goldman?

reply to post by questioningall


Goldman sachs IS on the list I provided, but you may find this interesting (again quoted from wikipedia)-

Five notable changes to the list have occurred in 2008. Countrywide Securities Corporation was removed on July 15 due to its acquisition by Bank of America. Lehman Brothers Inc. was removed on September 22 due to bankruptcy. Bear Stearns & Co. Inc. was removed from the list on October 1 due to its acquisition by J.P. Morgan Chase. On February 11, 2009, Merrill Lynch Government Securities Inc. was removed from the list due to its acquisition by Bank of America.


Sheeeeet!
You'd be better off with the Chinese holding your debt!

Rockpuck, lets assume for a moment that the fed isn't a for profit organisation.

I think its worth stating that the Fed IS totally unregulated.

I'll let you draw your own conclusions there!

The pertinent question being-why are the elite banking families of europe propping up the Fed if they don't make any money out of it?

What do they get out of it?

If you are correct and the fed is not a for profit organisation and they don't get paid, wouldn't one way to get money be to bring about the current crisis and get all that nice bailout money and buy up all the smaller banks?

Makes you think doesn't it?

Excuse me if I have been naieve, most of my knowledge on the Fed comes from threads I have read here on ATS.

Good quote from one of the wealthiest men in history who didn't gain his wealth from banking but from selling tangible goods.

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."

reply to post by the way

Rockpuck, lets assume for a moment that the fed isn't a for profit organisation.

It's charter extends directly from Congress.. it's not a Corporation, and no one has proved it's "for profit" .. let alone that it's a corporation..

I think its worth stating that the Fed IS totally unregulated.

The FED IS the regulation .. though I completely agree, the FED is akin to having the prisoners be the prison guards as well .. As someone else put it on ATS once, it's a necessary evil. We could either have bankers regulate the financial world, or we could have politicians. IMO the worst problem with the Fed is absolutely NO accountability.. it's entirely clandestine.

The pertinent question being-why are the elite banking families of europe propping up the Fed if they don't make any money out of it?

I don't know why (mostly American) conspiracy theorist assume the banks are controlled by "families" .. I suppose for the same reasons most Americans love the Royal Family.. adds a bit of fairy tale. The largest single share holder for Citigroup (largest banking unit in the world) is a Saudi Prince .. his control is 5% of the corporation. No "family" runs the World, and all controllers of 10% or more of publicly traded companies are public information. So you can look up the largest single shareholders of Citi, JP, Goldman, etc and tell me who they are.....

If you are correct and the fed is not a for profit organisation and they don't get paid, wouldn't one way to get money be to bring about the current crisis and get all that nice bailout money and buy up all the smaller banks?

To be quite honest... I don't know who's taking advantage of who. The bankers got the money.. yes, this is true. But lets compare:

Bankers get the money, but it's a 10% loan, a high interest rate.
The US Government get's paid 10% on the money and senior preferred shares.

Through senior Preferred Shares, the US Government OWNS the banks, they are officially majority shareholders, and thus control the corporation.

The banks use the funds to buy smaller banks..

Smaller banks come with massive debts..

Buying the banks, as per BoA can detail explicitly, cripples your reserves and your balance sheets.. the debt, as more and more banks are consumed, is to much to handle.

Both the FED, and the Treasury get more power.

So does the Executive Branch.

So who benefits more .. imo, the US Government... and Goldman Sachs. The only two entities to come out on top. now whether or not the US Government took these actions through preservation is up for debate.. I contend that as bad as the bail outs are, if they did not happen the entire World economy would have literally collapsed into nothing.. it would have been the Greatest Depression overnight.. Though, if your like me, that would have been the natural course to take.

Excuse me if I have been naieve, most of my knowledge on the Fed comes from threads I have read here on ATS.

Understandable, the FED because it operates in such a clandestine manner, it is often hard to discern fact from fiction. My own research points to most conspiracy theories being false.. or at the least, over exaggerated. That's not to say the Federal Reserve is not corrupt, unconstitutional and a variety of other unpleasantries..

Another member, well respected on the board for rationally viewing conspiracy theories sent me this link you might find interesting:
www.federalreserve.gov...

Showing the Federal Reserve pumped over 35billion back into the Treasury in 2007, all that money that should have gone to Member Banks if we believe the OPer.

reply to post by Rockpuck


Thanks for your informative andl well considered repy. I'll attempt to wade through that hefty report later.

Regardless of if these banks are families or not, I'm still confused as to what they actually get out of putting money into the Fed?

reply to post by the way

Regardless of if these banks are families or not, I'm still confused as to what they actually get out of putting money into the Fed?

All industries have some form of regulatory board. Most like say Insurance, have their official "head of office" being a Government official (in Insurance it was a Superintendent usually, depending on the state.)

The actual deregulation can be tracked back to a few key players.. mostly from AIG, Countrywide, Goldman and a few others. the economy, the country, the whollleeeee system .. it's no ineffable.. it' can still be corrupted by the actions of a few morons. That's basically what happened. Then a few more morons tried to clean up what the first morons did, only to have another set of morons # up what the second set of morons where trying to do for political gain.

Banks don't need the Federal Reserve to control our Government.

Goldman Sachs already does, and they did it without the Feds help.

reply to post by Rockpuck


I thank you for finally asking for it.

From the Federal Reserve:
Federal Reserve Website

Section 7.
Division of Earnings Dividends and Surplus Fund of Reserve Banks

(a) After all necessary expenses of a Federal reserve bank have been paid or provided for, the stockholders of the bank shall be entitled to receive an annual dividend of 6 percent on paid-in capital stock.

..it is an independent entity within the government, having both public purposes and private aspects.

From the Economist:
The Economist

Like Wall Street’s finest, the Fed makes money on a spread. Its main source of funds comes from issuing cash, since currency in circulation is, in effect, an interest-free loan by the public to the central bank. The interest it earns on its loans and securities is almost pure profit, or “seigniorage,” most of which it remits to the Treasury.

From the IMF (International Monetary Fund)
Page 34
IMF Paper

Earnings. The FRBs are highly profitable. The Federal Reserve has made a profit every year since 1916 including throughout the Great Depression. Average annual profit during the last 5 years (2004–2008) was $30.7 billion. Clearly, FRB income generation capacity far exceeds that of any commercial bank owing to the spread between its main conventional financing source, banknotes, and its holdings of Treasury assets. This link is so well established that FRB transfers to Treasury have been called “interest on FR notes” since 1947.44 Figure 16 provides the FRB “return on capital” for selected years dating back to 1951. This compares with an average return on U.S. commercial bank equity of 13.7 percent during the period 1998-2007. Therefore, while it would take the average U.S. commercial bank approximately 7 years to double capital by fully retaining earnings, the FRB could conceivably do so in one.

Also the Federal Reserve doesn't hold it gold at market value, look what would happen if it did:

Page 36
IMF Paper

a revaluation of the FRB gold certificates would provide a “paper” profit of approximately $236 billion.

So lets recap:

The Federal Reserve SAYS its not a for profit bank, but:

1) The have made a profit every year including in the great depression
2) The are not owned by the govt, but instead by a group of shareholders that they will not disclose the current names of.
3) All shareholders are entitled by law to a 6% dividend, AND compensation. That is billions of dollars every year.
4) Some profit IS transferred back to the Treasury, AFTER all expenses, compensation, and shareholder dividend is paid.

So they aren't a govt agency, they are owned by shareholders, they pay a dividend to a small group of owners in an annual amount in the billions, and by their own admission have turned a profit every year.

YES THEY ARE A FOR PROFIT CORPORATION