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Atheism & Theism: Menaces to Society

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posted on Aug, 4 2009 @ 05:02 AM
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Reply to post by Maxmars
 


Of course, divide and conquer at it's err finest. The best way to mantain group cohesion is to have a perceived enemy and none of the so-called leaders of this sillinesses are stupid. And the media gains ratings for feeding into it, so of course they will.


 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 




posted on Aug, 4 2009 @ 06:25 AM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating



I feel kind of sorry for the little ant that says "I conclude by saying that I dont believe for a single second that a mountain exists. This is my choice, this is my conclusion and my belief".


Erm... Using analogies of talking ants does not prove that god exists. Sorry but that's a weak effort. You were doing so well aswell.



No, it makes me someone who thinks life has a meaning, a value.


So you think that non-believers think life has no meaning or value? That's an absolutely ridiculous statement. You were doing so well earlier and now you've resorted to childish and largely unimaginative replies.

This is a typical and predictable answer and shows a lack of imagination.




Yeah. Faces change. But the concept of IntelligentDesign by a Creative Force remains.


That's a cheap answer. My guess is you have been challenged and couldn't think of any real answers for me, so you churned out the usual age old cliches.


C'mon man you can do better than that




[edit on 4-8-2009 by mr-lizard]



posted on Aug, 4 2009 @ 06:59 AM
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Originally posted by mr-lizard
Erm... Using analogies of talking ants does not prove that god exists. Sorry but that's a weak effort. You were doing so well aswell.



The analogy of the ant refers to the making absolute statements in light of the size of the body and brain making that statement in comparison with all that is.

As I make no absolute statements, you are in error saying I do that as well.

If Sigmund Freud were posting here he would conclude that your absolutism is due to adolescent rebellion against your father which was repressed and then projected onto the world in the form of atheism.



So you think that non-believers think life has no meaning or value? That's an absolutely ridiculous statement.


Classical atheism is defined as the rejection of any sort of God, Spirit or Life Force or Creative Intelligence behind reality. Classical atheism instead proposes Darwinism (a chain of random coincidence as the source of reality).

Attempts to re-define what atheism is in proclaiming Buddhist or spiritual beliefs are deflections from the inherent weakness of the atheists narrow and absolutist scope.



posted on Aug, 4 2009 @ 07:48 AM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 


That sums it up nicely, although it is important not to be too hard on them. I wrote a fictional dialogue that deals with the matter from a spiritual perspective. Instead of recapping I'll just insert it:

Religion, Atheism, Spirituality

Q – I’d like to talk about the difference between the religious person and the atheist. They seem incapable of reconciling. You see these huge and endless debates on the internet and in the publishing world. It has always seemed to me like atheists have just closed off their minds, and are relying on science and the scientific method to dictate what they can and can’t believe. At least the devout Christian has a bit of faith in something larger, more vast than himself.

A – Are they really so different? I mean fundamentally, in the way that they are approaching the issue of God, are they really any different?

Q – Definitely. One believes and the other doesn’t.

A – I would say that both believe absolutely and categorically. Both have thought themselves to a conclusion and believe with absolute certainty. Their minds are made up and, at that level, they are the same. The Atheist believes that death is an absolute end. They are certain of this and will accept no other opinion unless it is backed up by scientific proof. The religious man, perhaps he is a Christian, but he could be of any other faith (in fact, he could have made up his own faith), believes with absolute certainty in the existence of the soul, and that the soul lives on after death. He is willing to argue this with passages from the bible, the Koran, the Talmud. He too will defend his position in a close-minded way, fighting against the arguments of the other, holding his ground at all costs, deaf to what the other is saying.

Q – Ok, ok…We’ve been down this road before. You’re saying that both are mental arguments, and as such are missing the whole picture. A metal concept can’t capture reality, what is….etc, etc…I don’t know, the way I see it, at least the devout Christian believes in goodness and the power of love.

A – Actually, I would say that atheism can serve as a blank slate in the process of spiritual development. The accumulated doctrine of organized religion is swept aside by the truly atheistic point of view. If the atheist is then willing—at some later point—to re-examine his or her views, to go beyond the mental world they have created for themselves, this blank slate can become a springboard for spiritual development—an uncluttered room. Atheism, then, is not in itself a negative stance. It was a stage that I myself went though.

Q – Why do the atheist and the religious fundamentalist stop and not continue their inquiry, then?

A – As always, the answer is fear. The Christian who needs to believe absolutely in heaven and a god as a concept is frightened that there may be no solid god, no actual gates of heaven. The atheist believes he is far braver, since he considers that he has set aside such childish illusions. But really he too is avoiding the same unknown, the same emptiness that frightens the religious man. He accepts his "terrible" fate, his "final end," the cruelty of a random universe, but he will not accept the limitations of his own mind. He will not accept that he cannot, given enough time and a large enough brain, know everything. Both are afraid. Both are avoiding reality. Both are afraid of going beyond their own egos and minds.

Q – So what about you then. You’ve talked about god, about the power of love…all that stuff. Are you not also avoiding?

A – I am not avoiding the limitations of my mind. I have seen those limitations and that has freed me up to experience the universe as it is. It cannot be known with mind but it can be experienced. Its ultimate nature is love, and we are each that love. Atheism and religious beliefs are seen to be as invalid as any other collection of thoughts—they pale in relation to the infinite.


[edit on 4-8-2009 by Silenceisall]



posted on Aug, 4 2009 @ 08:01 AM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating
The analogy of the ant refers to the making absolute statements in light of the size of the body and brain making that statement in comparison with all that is.

As I make no absolute statements, you are in error saying I do that as well.

If Sigmund Freud were posting here he would conclude that your absolutism is due to adolescent rebellion against your father which was repressed and then projected onto the world in the form of atheism.


I think you find it very hard to understand that an atheist can stare at the universe and say 'wow... that's amazing', whereas a religious man would stare at the universe and say 'wow... that's amazing. God made it'.

That's the only difference. I don't need a faux-answer to hide the fact that i marvel at the infinite wonders of the universe, whereas a religious man hides behind his wonder and keeps himself sane by assuming that it was all created.

Sigmund Freud is dead. Also Freud was just one man amongst millions. Using the theories of a dead man to somehow study my words is a tad disconcerting and a little judgemental wouldn't you say.

I could easily say Nietzsche would say that you are 'avoiding the truth' by using a comfort blanket, but i have slightly more respect for you.




So you think that non-believers think life has no meaning or value? That's an absolutely ridiculous statement.




Classical atheism is defined as the rejection of any sort of God, Spirit or Life Force or Creative Intelligence behind reality. Classical atheism instead proposes Darwinism (a chain of random coincidence as the source of reality).


Actually atheism is derived from the greek word ATHEOS - which means the disbelief in god or gods.

What you fail to understand is that atheists do not belong to one single collective. We do not feel the need to 'belong' to any one particular set of beliefs, apart from the disbelief in a magic entity that spits out universes and punishes its chidlren.

One atheist can believe in harmonic frequencies (as mentioned before i am studying the science of frequencies in higher education) whilst another atheist can be dismissive of everthing.

Not all atheists automatically follow Darwinism. Can a free thinker not be skeptical of science too?

Of course.

Classical Christianity believes that woman was created from the rib of man, who commited incest after listening to a talking snake in a magical garden. You don't need me to point out the errs of such thought.

Classic Hinduism believes the universe was created with a single sound. Isn't this closer to what i study? Yes and no...



Attempts to re-define what atheism is in proclaiming Buddhist or spiritual beliefs are deflections from the inherent weakness of the atheists narrow and absolutist scope.


But this atheist is NOT narrow minded nor do i have an absolutist scope. I have spent days meditating in an ashram. I have visited Hindu temples, Jain temples and even a world spiritual university in a mountain top refuge called mount abu in India. I have spent time alone in forests amongst monkeys slowly watching buddhist monks attend to their daily business. I have politely prayed in Hindu temples (not out of faith, but out of respect to their culture)....

www.bkwsu.org...

I was told that i was spiritual by my guide. But this didn't persuade me to believe in magical dieties of any kind. It simply gave me peace of heart and mind, and a sense of happiness and appreciation of the world.

I for one don't think i am shallow minded at all. But i certainly don't jump on the religious band wagon and insult anyone who dares to have a different belief to me.

I think you are struggling to pin point what i am. I think you are confused as i don't fit into any of your pigeon holes and with that you resort to using Freudian quotes to belittle me.

I say carry on... for great debate.

Your turn God boy



posted on Aug, 4 2009 @ 08:31 AM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
To be militant wouldn't I ?


Militant is the wrong word. Extreme would have been better.



Or are we (d) picking up on the fact that Extreme Nude Volley Ball is an organized and team sport and applying the militant badge to it*** ***Please do not attach badges to nude people...ouch!


I enjoy the occasional nude-ball match. But do you guys have to do it on Sunday morning in front of a church? How about taking it to the beach?

[edit on 4-8-2009 by Skyfloating]


People have church in the mornings? On Sundays even? And it's not even on the beach?

You do have cheer leaders and refreshment stands at least right? right?



posted on Aug, 4 2009 @ 08:35 AM
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reply to post by mr-lizard
 


To say that the religious man hides behind the idea that the universe was created while the atheist faces reality is a bit silly. The atheist hides behind the idea that the universe was not created. They hide behind a faith in the idea that science can understand and interpret the mystery. This too is infantile. Unless you can see that both positions are based on unfounded beliefs, then you are not able to see reality. What if you drop the idea that there is no creator, but do not pick up the idea that there is one. Then you will be left to discover reality as it is. Your mind cannot touch it.






[edit on 4-8-2009 by Silenceisall]



posted on Aug, 4 2009 @ 08:45 AM
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Originally posted by mr-lizard
I think you find it very hard to understand that an atheist can stare at the universe and say 'wow... that's amazing', whereas a religious man would stare at the universe and say 'wow... that's amazing. God made it'.


Lets not distort definitions mr. lizard. Its more like this:

Theist: "Wow. Thats amazing. God made it"
Atheist. "Wow. Thats amazing. God didnt make it"
Agnostic: "Wow. Thats amazing".



Actually atheism is derived from the greek word ATHEOS - which means the disbelief in god or gods.


Lets take the currently most popular atheist as a reference - Richard Dawkins - he not only ridicules God but any sort of spiritual reality.




What you fail to understand is that atheists do not belong to one single collective.


And neither do those who believe in a Supreme Being. You keep pointing out the wrongs of Religion, but you are barking up the wrong tree. I find much of religion to be ridiculous. In fact, I believe that most religions worship megalomanic extraterrestrials rather than a Supreme Being / Infinity. Hows that for an anti-religious statement? In any case, I wont be defending religion here, so there is no point in bashing them towards me.



We do not feel the need to 'belong' to any one particular set of beliefs, apart from the disbelief in a magic entity that spits out universes and punishes its chidlren.


"There is no God" is an absolutist statement. You replace one absolutist view ("There is a God") with another one.




One atheist can believe in harmonic frequencies (as mentioned before i am studying the science of frequencies in higher education) whilst another atheist can be dismissive of everthing. Not all atheists automatically follow Darwinism. Can a free thinker not be skeptical of science too?


Ive already concluded that I am not discussing with a classical atheist but one that has taken the next step.



I for one don't think i am shallow minded at all


From reading your last post on your spiritual experiences I must agree that you are not shallow-minded.

Thats because you are not an atheist.




I think you are struggling to pin point what i am. I think you are confused as i don't fit into any of your pigeon holes and with that you resort to using Freudian quotes to belittle me.


Its nice that the theists and atheists who show up here are not the hardcore group of activists and militants. But it mustnt deflect from the very real menace the religious and anti-religious agenda pose when it comes to our schools, universities and media.

If I were standing in front of a school-class of young impressionable minds, wide-eyed innocents, I would neither proclaim "There is a God" nor "There is no God". I would leave the kids alone. So the main concern is over those who will not leave our kids alone.

[edit on 4-8-2009 by Skyfloating]



posted on Aug, 4 2009 @ 09:21 AM
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Originally posted by Silenceisall
reply to post by mr-lizard
 


To say that the religious man hides behind the idea that the universe was created while the atheist faces reality is a bit silly. The atheist hides behind the idea that the universe was not created. They hide behind a faith in the idea that science can understand and interpret the mystery. This too is infantile. Unless you can see that both positions are based on unfounded beliefs, then you are not able to see reality. What if you drop the idea that there is no creator, but do not pick up the idea that there is one. Then you will be left to discover reality as it is. Your mind cannot touch it.
[edit on 4-8-2009 by Silenceisall]


Again that's an assumption declaring that an athiest never used to believe in God. This atheist does not believe science has the answer for everything. read some of my posts.

I think you've jumped the gun a little.



posted on Aug, 4 2009 @ 09:24 AM
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Originally posted by Silenceisall

although it is important not to be too hard on them.



Yes, its important to be kind to children.

Love the Dialogue



posted on Aug, 4 2009 @ 09:38 AM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating

Lets not distort definitions mr. lizard. Its more like this:

Theist: "Wow. Thats amazing. God made it"
Atheist. "Wow. Thats amazing. God didnt make it"
Agnostic: "Wow. Thats amazing".


Erm... you're the one who's distorting definitions here. By not declaring 'god didn't make it, is no different to my original statement'

An agnostic would more likely say... 'Wow that's amazing... i don't know what made it'

Because every night i stare at the universe - i don't suddenly think... 'That's amazing - god didn't make it'... i just look at it and think 'wow amazing'.... And i'm not agnostic.

You are twisting my words somewhat.




Lets take the currently most popular atheist as a reference - Richard Dawkins - he not only ridicules God but any sort of spiritual reality.


Well i'm not Dawkins. If his opinion upsets you then write him a letter. I have different opinions to Dawkins, like my catholic grandmother had different opinions to the pope. Simple as that.




And neither do those who believe in a Supreme Being. You keep pointing out the wrongs of Religion, but you are barking up the wrong tree.


Where did i point out the wrongs?



I find much of religion to be ridiculous. In fact, I believe that most religions worship megalomanic extraterrestrials rather than a Supreme Being / Infinity. Hows that for an anti-religious statement? In any case, I wont be defending religion here, so there is no point in bashing them towards me.


I'm not bashing them.... Why do you think i am? As i said earlier religion is one of my favourite subjects. As Ashley D said earlier, she took an interest in the criticisms of religion for it to strengthen her belief.

I'm of a similar bent, that it takes criticism of atheism and the study of religion to strengthen my lack of belief. I don't know why you find that so hard to understand sir.



"There is no God" is an absolutist statement. You replace one absolutist view ("There is a God") with another one.


So by that logic. Only an agnostic can be purely true or truly pure??



Ive already concluded that I am not discussing with a classical atheist but one that has taken the next step.


One which may be challenging your ideas more than a classical atheist ever could?



From reading your last post on your spiritual experiences I must agree that you are not shallow-minded.

Thats because you are not an atheist.



But i am. I truly don't believe in a creator. I'm not religious, nor am i agnostic. Maybe i'm just not a classical athiest as you like to put it.




Its nice that the theists and atheists who show up here are not the hardcore group of activists and militants. But it mustnt deflect from the very real menace the religious and anti-religious agenda pose when it comes to our schools, universities and media.


Absolutely. RE was one of my favourite lessons besides english in junior school. I think children should be educated in both science and religion and let them make their minds up. Too much of either can be either too fantastical or too clinical.



If I were standing in front of a school-class of young impressionable minds, wide-eyed innocents, I would neither proclaim "There is a God" nor "There is no God". I would leave the kids alone. So the main concern is over those who will not leave our kids alone.


Nor would i. Much in the same way i wouldn't tell a kid there is no Santa Claus or an easter Bunny.

And despite our initial disagreements, i now understand where you are coming from.

Peace



posted on Aug, 4 2009 @ 09:45 AM
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Santa claus or the easter bunny cannot grant power to overcome the occult rulers of darkness that are trying to enslave mankind through the NWO/Illuminati; but Jesus Christ can!

The greatest evidence of God is the empowerment of the believer to work the works of God, to have the exact same abilities that Jesus Christ had while on this Earth. That is how God has ordained "proof" of His existance, through the lives of His believers. Chances are, you just have never met a real Christian. I am a real Christian, a Christian with great power because a Living God is abiding in me as His Temple and manifesting Himself through me by the destruction of occult Kingdoms and their rulers.



posted on Aug, 4 2009 @ 10:03 AM
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Originally posted by whiterider
Santa claus or the easter bunny cannot grant power to overcome the occult rulers of darkness that are trying to enslave mankind through the NWO/Illuminati; but Jesus Christ can!

The greatest evidence of God is the empowerment of the believer to work the works of God, to have the exact same abilities that Jesus Christ had while on this Earth. That is how God has ordained "proof" of His existance, through the lives of His believers. Chances are, you just have never met a real Christian. I am a real Christian, a Christian with great power because a Living God is abiding in me as His Temple and manifesting Himself through me by the destruction of occult Kingdoms and their rulers.


That's just not true! Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are omnipotent, all powerful and all seeing.

Do you really think these New World Order evil types are making Santa's list?...I don't think so! Santa knows if you have been naughty or nice!

While these cretins you refer to likely think that the lumps of coal in their stockings Christmas Morning are windfall energy profits sooner or later they are going to find out only naughty boys and girls get coal in their stockings and when this happens they are really going to be bummed.

They will mend their ways in the hopes of that new Ball Bat or Pony or maybe even a new Monopoly Game!

Santa is our best defense against the New World Order!

Crying won't help you, praying won't do you no good!

Santa knows whose naughty or nice, don't you forget it!

Maybe if you were really, really good and deserved it, and weren't so selfish and asked Santa for World Peace for Christmas we wouldn't be in such a mess!



posted on Aug, 4 2009 @ 10:28 AM
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reply to post by mr-lizard
 


There is no assumption that all atheists never once believed in god in my post. Not sure where you got that from. In fact, I would say that those who believe in no god are in similar states of consciousness as those who believe in god as a concept. Moving from one to the other is not hard for them.

[edit on 4-8-2009 by Silenceisall]



posted on Aug, 4 2009 @ 01:19 PM
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Would be wonderful if both sides would pratice a little introspection. Take their tinted microscopes off each other and look at and critise themselves, they lose themselves in their judgment of others and hide the fact from themselves that they too are falliable. Case in point Mr. Lizard's refer to Sky as "God-boy" despite the fact the conversation not being about that and Sky not talking about his belief. This is showing in that it shows a classic us versus them mentality where anyone who dares critique is is immediately assumed to be "them".


 
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posted on Aug, 4 2009 @ 06:34 PM
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You are completely wrong about a majority of people i know who are atheists. I am I.D. myself, but your rambling on about atheism has no facts and is completely biased.

While i do not agree what you say i would fight to the death for you to say it



posted on Aug, 4 2009 @ 06:38 PM
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reply to post by scghst1
 


And the majority of people you know is the majority of atheism?



posted on Aug, 4 2009 @ 07:21 PM
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i was once a vegan...and absolutely could not stand other vegans because of their militant veganism.
i only state this as to point out that i understand your meaning when you use the word militant in this thread, so i'm going to use the word as well.


really, i just wanted to say that i found it a bit odd that you fail to realize that while you denounce militant atheism, and militant theism, you are taking a very obvious militant stance in your own beliefs. i guess it would be a militant middleman view.
seriously, do you not consider that by claiming all that hold either, of what you may consider to be, extremist views are ignorant and narrow-minded, you are yourself perpetrating the same crime that you claim to be against?

"you're wrong! you have to believe what i believe in order to not be ignorant!"

i consider myself a radical atheist. and i consider theists to have a fundamental lack of education. no offense. i can only say that i'm not insulted if others find me ignorant as well...just so long as they're not blatantly insulting me.
but, at least i admit this.if you want to be a militant middleman, be a militant middleman. just don't feign superiority to the rest of us militant jerks out there.

as to whoever spoke of dichotomy, i think your concept is absurd. to assume that there are no superiors in any pair of opposites portrays a staggeringly poor amount of logic and reason.

so understanding is no better than ignorance?
truth is no better than falsehood?
pleasure is no better than pain?
love is no better than hate?

don't get me wrong, ignorance can, indeed, feel like bliss. hatred can occasionally give you an infusion of life that you never knew you had. pain can be fantastic (especially when sprinkled with pleasure)

but it's the human desire to surpass these states of being that has led us through every advancement in human history.


even still, atheism and theism are not dichotomies. one is a faith, the other is an absence of faith.
and, no, there is no such thing as a faith in evolution. belief in evolution comes from a logical deduction of evidence, whereas faith demands belief IN SPITE OF lack of evidence.

since the word 'atheist' literally a lack of belief in a god or gods, there is absolutely no reason to assume that atheism would not exist without theism. in fact, just the opposite would be true. the only thing that you could honestly state to that point is that we would have no need for a label specifically pointing out our lack of belief.

radical atheism (or militant atheism) came about because of theism, true. but without theism, atheism would not cease to be, it would, in fact, be the only thing left.

but to point out that radical atheism would not exist without theism, and is therefore a faulty ideology is as absurd as stating that the polio vaccine is only around because we have polio and is therefore unwarranted.

atheism is a vaccine against the disease of theism.


by the way, it's really quite frightening whenever i hear the argument that morality is dependent upon a belief in a higher power used in earnest.
would you really harm others at whim if you had no higher power?

human evolution creates our morality, just as it creates a standard of ethics personal to each animal family on the planet.
ours gets a little more complicated because we've now reached a point at which our actions can ultimately affect every living thing on planet earth. but it doesn't take a ghost story or an imaginary friend in order to understand how our actions to the people around us and to the planet itself affect our and our family's lives. it just takes a bit of logic.



posted on Aug, 4 2009 @ 07:38 PM
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reply to post by Nathan_Orin
 


Um, he did not characterize all atheists and theists as militant in their beliefs and thusly the cause of the problem he addresses? And not only that how is he militant in his moderatism? He doesn't claim that everyone must be made moderate. He merely states the problems being caused by the extremes of both sides. Sorry sir or ma'am but I see alot of assumptions treated as fact in this post.

[edit on 4-8-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]



posted on Aug, 4 2009 @ 07:55 PM
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Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
Case in point Mr. Lizard's refer to Sky as "God-boy" despite the fact the conversation not being about that and Sky not talking about his belief.



Nope that was me JOKING with sky floating. If you read back amongst our dialogue in the previous pages you will see a lot of it was in light hearted banter.

Although i know how easy it is for us to fail to see sarcasm or jest on the internet when all we have is text.



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