With respect, Hillary Clinton is wrong, says Raul Castro, page 1

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Topic started on 1-8-2009 @ 11:07 PM by tezzajw

With respect, Hillary Clinton is wrong, says Raul Castro

www.news.com.au

CUBAN President Raul Castro warned the United States and the European Union that the country's socialist political system was non-negotiable, adding he would not "restore capitalism" in Cuba.

"With all due respect, in response to Mrs Clinton, but also to the European Union... I was not chosen as president to restore capitalism to Cuba or to renounce the revolution," he said to applause from lawmakers.

(visit the link for the full news article)

reply posted on 1-8-2009 @ 11:07 PM by tezzajw

Take that, Hillary. As if it matters.

With all due respect to Clinton and Castro, but you're all meglomaniacs. None of you should have the power that you have. None of you deserve it, nor do you know what to rightfully do with it.

The world needs fewer of your kind.

Sure, Mr Castro, you were chosen to defend and perfect your socialism. Tell whatever lies you need to sit on your corrupt throne.

www.news.com.au
(visit the link for the full news article)

reply posted on 2-8-2009 @ 12:23 AM by xpert11

Raul is an economic fool at least to some degree . China and Vietnam have shown that capitalism and personal freedoms aren't connected when tour simply producing goods for overseas that have been designed elsewhere . History has shown that capitalism is needed as the basis for an economic system because it gives someone an incentive to produce or put another way be productive .

Cheers xpert11 .

reply posted on 2-8-2009 @ 12:43 AM by flice

reply to post by xpert11

With all due respect to you two, the only thing capitalism teaches us is how easy men can become greedy and needy, and forget about loving their neighbours for what they are... fellow humans.
It teaches us that we should be rewarded for the work we do, and that this reward is necessary to be in the currency of money.
It teaches us that all men apperently are not created equal, that some deserve more for less, and deserve to judge who gets more or less.

Well ok, we are all equal... some are just more equal than others.

And that is dispicable.

The funny thing is that once capitalism has dug it's way into every heart of man, it has ensured its own downfall. Man can only take so much of something before he's had enough of it, and socialism will take its place, alas only for a while...

[edit on 2/8/09 by flice]

reply posted on 2-8-2009 @ 12:46 AM by HunkaHunka

reply to post by tezzajw

On that note...

Who does deserve that level of power? Anyone?

reply posted on 2-8-2009 @ 01:43 AM by xpert11

Originally posted by flice
With all due respect to you two, the only thing capitalism teaches us is how easy men can become greedy and needy, and forget about loving their neighbours for what they are... fellow humans.

All due respect is noted . Every system has its extremes and to much of anything can be a bad thing . As you would know a lot of debate goes on concerning the framework from which in Capitalism should operate . Capitalism is like the foundations of a house the question what goes on top of or with it .

It teaches us that we should be rewarded for the work we do, and that this reward is necessary to be in the currency of money.

What you term reward is actually incentive . Just look at our the Soviet Union was always importing grain and how Vietnam suffered from rice shortages into at least aspect of capitalism were brought back to the farmers . Myself I am fond of bartering but I also recognise how on a wider scale the limitations that would come with the system .

Well ok, we are all equal... some are just more equal than others.

Well it about time that a of third world took responsibility for some of the inequality. You will never see a system that is a viable replacement for Capitalism .

reply posted on 2-8-2009 @ 02:05 AM by Rockpuck

Originally posted by xpert11
Raul is an economic fool at least to some degree . China and Vietnam have shown that capitalism and personal freedoms aren't connected when tour simply producing goods for overseas that have been designed elsewhere . History has shown that capitalism is needed as the basis for an economic system because it gives someone an incentive to produce or put another way be productive .

Cheers xpert11 .

If you put Capitalism into Communism (which doesn't exist, but Socialism anyways) you get an entirely new system.

It's called Fascism. Capitalism without personal rights, where the State can dictate the Corporations, the people, and the Government.

(if this sounds like what America has been moving towards for the past few years, you're not mistaken. We may not be Communist, but eventually we will meet China somewhere in the middle of the Political Spectrum as equals.)

reply posted on 2-8-2009 @ 02:07 AM by Rockpuck

reply to post by flice

With all due respect to you two, the only thing capitalism teaches us is how easy men can become greedy and needy, and forget about loving their neighbours for what they are... fellow humans.

I'd rather be born unequal with the hope of attaining wealth through personal determination, than to be born equal with no chance of escaping poverty.

reply posted on 2-8-2009 @ 02:58 AM by ElectricUniverse

reply to post by xpert11

Neither China, nor Vietnam are not truly Capitalist countries, they are Communist countries, although they also call themselves as Socialists, using Capitalism so that their corrupt Communist/Socialist systems can continue to control people.

reply posted on 2-8-2009 @ 03:04 AM by tezzajw

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
reply to post by tezzajw

On that note...
Who does deserve that level of power? Anyone?

No one deserves that much power.

I don't believe in leaders or governments. I don't understand why people want to be lead.

When humans form groups, dangerous things happen and lots of good intentions are lost...

reply posted on 2-8-2009 @ 03:04 AM by ElectricUniverse

reply to post by flice

With all due respect, Socialism and the last stage Communism is a lot worse than Capitalism...

Also, in nations like the U.S. where there is a Constitution, ALL men, and women, are equal. Yes the more effort you give the more rewards you get, which is better than being a bum and the government paying you through the hard work of others...

Are there rich people which are rich jsut because their parents were rich? sure there are, just like Communist leaders allow their children to have more things than the rest of the population.

The U.S. is being transformed into another Socialist dictatorship, and those Americans hat keep cheering for these changes, are so brainwashed and stupid that they think this is good...
Obviously none of them have experienced, or know what true Socialism, and Communism is.

[edit on 2-8-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

reply posted on 2-8-2009 @ 03:08 AM by SuperViking

tezzajw, while I very strongly disagree withe your assessment that governments are unnecessary, I was pleased when I opened your thread that it wasn't just mindless cheerleading for Castro simply because he was going against 'The Man' (the US), likeso many reactionary topics here do. So props to being ideologically consistent, unlike so many- especially here.

reply posted on 2-8-2009 @ 03:19 AM by xpert11

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

No country could truly said to be the Capitalist if you are going to use a yardstick its kind of like of no economy is entirely based on market forces . For example no country would entirely outsource its military . So Vietnam and China could be said to be Capitalist countries in comparison to say North Korea and Cuba . Of course when you suppress people you limit a countries economic model somewhat .

reply posted on 2-8-2009 @ 03:32 AM by KarlG

Originally posted by flice
reply to post by xpert11

With all due respect to you two, the only thing capitalism teaches us is how easy men can become greedy and needy, and forget about loving their neighbours for what they are... fellow humans.
It teaches us that we should be rewarded for the work we do, and that this reward is necessary to be in the currency of money.
It teaches us that all men apperently are not created equal, that some deserve more for less, and deserve to judge who gets more or less.

Well ok, we are all equal... some are just more equal than others.

And that is dispicable.

The funny thing is that once capitalism has dug it's way into every heart of man, it has ensured its own downfall. Man can only take so much of something before he's had enough of it, and socialism will take its place, alas only for a while...

[edit on 2/8/09 by flice]

Wow, okay, that was VERY fluffy of you. Come ON, this is the real world, ECONOMIC POWER comes first, followed by "compassion and kindness and love" and all that.

WITHOUT a good standard of living and economic stability, you CANNOT have compassion and kindness and love. True, those qualities are important to make us human, but you forget we live in a REAL world. Look at children in Africa. They probably haven't been exposed to the kind of backstabbing and conflict we see on a daily basis. But they are NOT happy.

It's easy for you to say that kindness and love is a priority, because you live in a place WITH Internet access. You live in a place where keeping your job is your biggest concern, and not keeping your life.

Now go to Cuba, and tell me if you can say the same for Cuban citizens.

All the "human desirable qualities" should come in ONLY when there has been economic stability in a home country. For example, Nestle should STOP charging villagers in Africa for water and sanitation when it has enough economic base AT HOME! And this becomes not the fault of capitalism, but of the innate, greedy nature of HUMAN BEINGS IN GENERAL.

We are ALL greedy. But we can attempt to improve and become more compassionate and loving of "fellow humans" AFTER this greed has been, to an extent, reduced, or "satiated". This is where capitalism helps. This is also where the government, a good, uncorrupt (hah!) government (paradoxical, really, if you think about this) can help: A more capitalist environment for a good period of time, and gradually less capitalism once the economic standard has been reached.

Right now Cuba isn't even HALF of the economic standard of other countries elsewhere, its people are suffering, worrying, and here Castro goes and tells Clinton, "I would like to keep my socialism because we had a revolution eons ago, please."

Can you not see that the revolution is an EXCUSE for Castro to keep his power? He is using history, the revolution, as a lousy excuse for him to maintain his corrupt throne!

In such a case I'd rather forgo whatever historical significance and just go for IMPROVING MY LIFE.

So, yes, economy first, compassion and love and kindness after.

With all due respect, you are not seeing the REAL need for survival.

[edit on 2-8-2009 by KarlG]

reply posted on 2-8-2009 @ 03:35 AM by KarlG

Originally posted by SuperViking
tezzajw, while I very strongly disagree withe your assessment that governments are unnecessary, I was pleased when I opened your thread that it wasn't just mindless cheerleading for Castro simply because he was going against 'The Man' (the US), likeso many reactionary topics here do. So props to being ideologically consistent, unlike so many- especially here.

I agree with SuperViking. It's unbelievable how many people here are downright STUPID.

They disagree with MSM, the government, American culture to such an extent that anytime there's a conflict between our country and another, they automatically side that other country without even laying all the facts on the table. It's unpatriotic and really very disgusting.

Bravo to the O/P for that balance.

[edit on 2-8-2009 by KarlG]

reply posted on 2-8-2009 @ 04:00 AM by Ownification

reply to post by tezzajw

Yaaay a thread where Socialists and Capitalists can flame each other. What the followers of both these groups don't get is that every system changes and it must change according to time. Time changes conditions. America has embraced Communism in the name of Bailout plan and China has embraced Capitalism. Not the old Capitalism nor the old communism but merely certain quality of each system which was unheard of couple of decades ago due to each side being busy on killing each other instead of working together towards a better future.

It is retardedness in its best when any society anywhere refuses to change through time, including Islamic societies. I would be visiting this thread incase any Muslim want to challenge my statment.

reply posted on 2-8-2009 @ 04:06 AM by ConspiracyNut23

Most of the world is capitalist, and most of the world is neither prosperous nor particularly democratic. One need only think of capitalist Nigeria, capitalist Indonesia, capitalist Thailand, capitalist Haiti, capitalist Colombia, capitalist Pakistan, capitalist South Africa, capitalist Latvia, and various other members of the Free World--more accurately, the Free Market World.

A prosperous, politically literate populace with high expectations about its standard of living and a keen sense of entitlement, pushing for continually better social conditions, is not the plutocracy’s notion of an ideal workforce and a properly pliant polity. Corporate investors prefer poor populations. The poorer you are, the harder you will work—for less. The poorer you are, the less equipped you are to defend yourself against the abuses of wealth.

...

It is ironic to credit capitalism with the genius of economic prosperity when most attempts at material betterment have been vehemently and sometimes violently resisted by the capitalist class. The history of labor struggle provides endless illustration of this.

www.michaelparenti.org...

reply posted on 2-8-2009 @ 04:12 AM by ConspiracyNut23

reply to post by xpert11

What you term reward is actually incentive . Just look at our the Soviet Union was always importing grain and how Vietnam suffered from rice shortages into at least aspect of capitalism were brought back to the farmers .

In the case of Vietnam, you are ignoring other pertinent variables. For instance, in Alfred W. McCoy's The Politics of Heroin we learn that the French were actually providing rice and money to farmers in Indochina who agreed to grow opium instead of rice. This might account for the "import" of rice you described, although I'm not sure what time period you are referring to.

[edit on 2/8/09 by ConspiracyNut23]

reply posted on 2-8-2009 @ 04:20 AM by ConspiracyNut23

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

Also, in nations like the U.S. where there is a Constitution, ALL men, and women, are equal.

Although, some men are more equal than others:

The Constitution itself was fashioned by affluent gentlemen who gathered in Philadelphia in 1787 to repeatedly warn of the baneful and dangerous leveling effects of democracy. The document they cobbled together was far from democratic, being shackled with checks, vetoes, and requirements for artificial super majorities, a system designed to blunt the impact of popular demands.

In the early days of the Republic the rich and well-born imposed property qualifications for voting and officeholding. They opposed the direct election of candidates (note, their Electoral College is still with us)

www.michaelparenti.org...

[edit on 2/8/09 by ConspiracyNut23]

reply posted on 2-8-2009 @ 04:31 AM by ConspiracyNut23

reply to post by KarlG

Right now Cuba isn't even HALF of the economic standard of other countries elsewhere, its people are suffering, worrying, and here Castro goes and tells Clinton, "I would like to keep my socialism because we had a revolution eons ago, please."

Perhaps you haven't heard about the United States Embargo against Cuba?

Since the fall of the USSR, they are hurting badly.

Not too many countries could survive without access to the US' large economy.

[edit on 2/8/09 by ConspiracyNut23]

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