What will it take for you to Stop Believing!? (Deity)

My point on this subject is this, I am agnostic, I do not want to say "God" isnt real, because I do not have proof that he isn't real. However what gets me is post like this and the atheist who go out of their way to try to proove God isnt real, what does it matter, if it gives people hope, and a reason to behave and be a better person, thats a good thing and we need that as a society. I know mickey mouse isnt real, but when I went to disney world, I hugged him and laughed, it didnt bother me that it was just a guy in a suit, same with children and santa claus, who cares, its all fun and it doesn't hurt anyone. Understand that as a society, we need believers, because it helps bring down crime, yea I know all the religion based wars, I am talking about regular people who are not part of an army or ideology organization. It doesn't bother me if someone believes in a God, what bothers me more is some smuck that does nothing with his time but sit around and try to come up with "got ya" ideas to say see, see I told you he's not real, it's just stupid, leave it alone and let people believe what they want, besides I bet money that if you ever get put in a life and death situation, you will be calling on the very thing you denied!

[edit on 1-8-2009 by Mr_XIM]

Originally posted by maximumpower
The evidence I use to prove the absence of God (the complexity of the biosphere, for example)

**Can I just say that although I don't agree with any organized religion, I definitely respect that people can whole heartedly believe in something with no proof or physical evidence to back it up- I just don't think they're smart.

Let me try to understand your logic from a third party perspective.

You attempted to prove non-existence (impossible to do, how can you provide evidence against something that doesn't exist?) and then you called people that believe in this non-existence stupid? or let me rephrase that, you don't think they're smart.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news; however, isn't this like the pot calling the kettle black?

Even a Mod refused to answer your question Republican. I think that is something that should be worth noting.

Just a simple question that could be answered simply. Instead the mod posted 5 paragraphs of belief attacks.

Something I think paints a very VERY dangerous picture of how religion brings out an internal defense mechanism that wards against any logic or reason that could break down the sanctity of Faith.

reply to post by Republican08


Really good question...so... What will it take for me to stop believing?!
Well maybe it will convince me if after death I will realise that there is no heaven?? not sure...
I think if God himself tell me to stop believing in Him it will do...)

[edit on 1-8-2009 by ZenOnKwalsky]

reply to post by Republican08
You make a lot of good points, and you present some really good questions. As a Christian who acknowledges science and evolution, I might be in the minority when answering those questions. If someone asked me to provide proof of God's existence, I would no doubt loose in the debate. Since faith is based upon being emotionally aware of God, providing definitive proof to support my beliefs is practically impossible. Most of your questions revolve around one premises, so I'm going to sum them up into one question. I will provide my answers after them.

What drives mankind towards seeking the need for a God?
Before the existence of established moral laws, mankind was not aware of consequences based upon actions. People were subject to their emotions, but they were unaware of how their actions hurt others. As a result of many centuries living in a world of darkness, people started to ask the question, "Is this all to life." Since people were living in a world of war, murder, disease, and rape, they only saw chaos inhabiting the people around them. At some point in our evolutionary history, mankind became more aware of our own existence. They started to ask questions based upon their relationship to others and the world. Mankind evolved cognitively to the point where they arrive to a revelation. "We are small and flawed." Even though we are complex beings, our actions and emotions can cause great damage. While seeking to understand our smallness, humanity stretched out to the largest phenomenon around them. Since we couldn't find an answer on the Earth's surface, we sought out the sky for answers. Why? Its massive, infinite, and unknown. As people started to define their place in the world, they connected their actions to consequences. When they did something wrong, they felt a heavy burden (or pressure) being applied to the chest. Inner sensations were connected to actions cause by others, and actions they cause onto other people. As mankind became more and more aware, the darkness of life became harder to cope with. Suddenly man connected consequences to environmental elements. When someone did something wrong, people believed the sky would turn gray and rain. Since clouds turn the surface of the Earth to darkness, they believed the environment could sense their emotional states. Relationships were developed between action, consequences, and a unseen force. Even though humanity couldn't see anything, they felt that a presence existed outside of their own. Over the centuries that followed, mankind connected dark actions to evil deities. When people were rewarded emotionally from an action, they connected the experience to a good entity. More centuries past, and more deities were defined. Even though one religious paradigm falls, another one quickly takes it place. Philosophies were created because of one simple logic, "We are small, flawed, and illogical." We are complex machines built for an unknown reason, and the darkness around us pushes us to find out why.

If you ever ask yourself "Who am I? What am I? Why am I here?", what you are looking for are answers beyond science. Even though we can define the functions and drives of humanity, sciences cannot define those primal and logical questions. We can come up with complex answers, but we cannot stop our cognitions from seeking the answer to "Who am I?". Ultimately mankind has evolved to the stage of, "Being aware of being aware".

[edit on 1-8-2009 by Pathos]

There is nothing that could convince me that God does not exist. I have seen to many things that God has done in this world.
God grants the gifts of the holy spirit to those who have enough faith to use them and to those christians that do, they see physical proof of Gods reality.

What amazes me is that all none believers think that people only believe in God through blind faith, where nothing could be further than the truth.
Yes, a lot of christians do and i admire them for that, but to many, they have 100% proof that he is real.

I wish i could go deeper into the ways that God manifests himself here on earth but that would be changing the purpose of this thread to much and to many people would not believe the truth anyway.

The mind, you can manipulate but what is in your heart stays forever.

Cheers
John

In response to this thread, it occurred to me that humans need a physical god of sorts. It's not light reading, but it's directly applicable to the OPs question.

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by randyvs

 

Surely out of the billions of xtians prancing around the planet at least one could provide us with evidence of an amputee having a limb regenerated ?

That's no too hard for Jesus is it ? Only one, one single live as your but incident of an xtian praying for an amputee and the limb being regenerated right in front of the eyes.

That's all it would take to get a lot of people seriously considering the validity of your (up till now) delusion.

I doubt that even if the Utube were recorded in high definition in broad daylight that you or your ilk would believe. Just another thing to debunk and not believe it untill you see it with your own 2 eyes.
If you survive the coming trajedies then you may believe or you just may be more peeved at god.

In any case it will not change his plan. 6000 years of man's self rule showing himself as incompetent to the challenge. Like you said bus loads of innocents are being blown up.... Blame that on god? he didn't do the act.
If god wanted a bunch of mindless zombies then he would'nt have gone through the effort to create a path for man to choose his side and viewpoint on life in the cosmos.
Man was given free will. Free to worship the creator and free to worship man and his creations. You choose what you will and I"ll do the same.

Originally posted by jon1
There is nothing that could convince me that God does not exist. I have seen to many things that God has done in this world.
God grants the gifts of the holy spirit to those who have enough faith to use them and to those christians that do, they see physical proof of Gods reality.

What amazes me is that all none believers think that people only believe in God through blind faith, where nothing could be further than the truth.
Yes, a lot of christians do and i admire them for that, but to many, they have 100% proof that he is real.

I wish i could go deeper into the ways that God manifests himself here on earth but that would be changing the purpose of this thread to much and to many people would not believe the truth anyway.

The mind, you can manipulate but what is in your heart stays forever.

Cheers
John

Even though I am a Christian myself, I'm not a programmed religious computer. I know where you are coming from, but the biggest flaw to religion is that you can't prove to anyone that God exists. You can repeat scripture, share your emotional experiences, or tell us about something you saw. At the end of the day when everything has been said, you wouldn't have proven the existence of God. Its a personal relationship based upon a emotional connection to an unseen being. Religion is a tough philosophy to prove.

reply to post by Xtraeme



I didn't need a physical God, not for 47yrs.
then When i did meet him, i wasn't even looking.

Don't believe all you read.....

reply to post by Pathos

Even though I am a Christian myself, I'm not a programmed religious computer. I know where you are coming from, but the biggest flaw to religion is that you can't prove to anyone that God exists. You can repeat scripture, share your emotional experiences, or tell us about something you saw. At the end of the day when everything has been said, you wouldn't have proven the existence of God. Its a personal relationship based upon a emotional connection to an unseen being. Religion is a tough philosophy to prove.

When you pray for someone and something significant happens before thier eyes, then that person is convinced.
I have convinced many people in the last 10 years.

[edit on 1-8-2009 by jon1]

I once saw police pictures of a horrible accident. They featured a little girl laying on her back atop of a road next to a sidewalk. She had no head because it was smashed like a melon by a truck that had passed after she tripped off the sidewalk. The girl's mother was beside her body, sobbing in obvious despair.

It tore me apart to observe those pictures. They were just having a nice mother and daughter kind of day, then wham! The girl's hand, even in death, still clutched her half eaten ice cream cone. How could an all powerful "God" allow that kind of tragedy happen to a girl and her mother that HE apparently loves so much? Surely HE would have stalled the truck driver in some way as to prevent the accident the HE knew was coming. Oh wait, no need for god to intervene, it was HIS divine plan for her all along. I guess the mother should just go to church and thank god for her daughters holy fulfillment. Right?

This event was not the reason I turned Atheist. I became Atheist through logical reasoning and the constant need for truth. The most unfortunate event typed out above is just one of my many Atheistic reinforcements. It doesn't prove the non-existence of a universe creator. However it certainly strengthens, for me at least, the disbelief in a god let alone an all-loving god.

Originally posted by jon1
reply to post by Pathos

 

Even though I am a Christian myself, I'm not a programmed religious computer. I know where you are coming from, but the biggest flaw to religion is that you can't prove to anyone that God exists. You can repeat scripture, share your emotional experiences, or tell us about something you saw. At the end of the day when everything has been said, you wouldn't have proven the existence of God. Its a personal relationship based upon a emotional connection to an unseen being. Religion is a tough philosophy to prove.

When you pray for someone and something significant happens before thier eyes, then that person is convinced.
I have convinced many people in the last 10 years.

[edit on 1-8-2009 by jon1]

You can't prove to anyone that God exists without tangible facts. People need something to measure, weight, and examine physically. Its impossible.

Originally posted by Thinking Ape
I once saw police pictures of a horrible accident. They featured a little girl laying on her back atop of a road next to a sidewalk. She had no head because it was smashed like a melon by a truck that had passed after she tripped off the sidewalk. The girl's mother was beside her body, sobbing in obvious despair.

It tore me apart to observe those pictures. They were just having a nice mother and daughter kind of day, then wham! The girl's hand, even in death, still clutched her half eaten ice cream cone. How could an all powerful "God" allow that kind of tragedy happen to a girl and her mother that HE apparently loves so much? Surely HE would have stalled the truck driver in some way as to prevent the accident the HE knew was coming. Oh wait, no need for god to intervene, it was HIS divine plan for her all along. I guess the mother should just go to church and thank god for her daughters holy fulfillment. Right?

This event was not the reason I turned Atheist. I became Atheist through logical reasoning and the constant need for truth. The most unfortunate event typed out above is just one of my many Atheistic reinforcements. It doesn't prove the non-existence of a universe creator. However it certainly strengthens, for me at least, the disbelief in a god let alone an all-loving god.

I love animals but i don't go around rescuing flies that are trapped in a spiders web from being eaten alive.

How much lower are we to God that that fly is to us.

Just a thought...

When atheists can show that DNA can be generated by the nuclear fusion process within stars (I won´t even bother with the origins of the stars themselves), then I´ll raise an eyebrow.

reply to post by jon1

When you pray for someone and something significant happens before thier eyes, then that person is convinced.

Well then- convince me. You read it right. You're that in with the almighty, you should be able to give me a solid answer to the sit-com mess I have been in.

Convincing begins- Now.

reply to post by Thinking Ape


Thou art preaching to the choir. While I havent had anything that bad happen- I had stuff happen that was bad enough to me. Where is this 'loving' deity'? How come when it's bad for someone else, it's God's plan, but let it happen to THEM- and you got nutburgers galore. Publicly, "God blah blah blah". Privately, I am willing to bet they can melt tungsten with what comes out of their mouths.

Like I said- Whatever's in charge of the universe is BAD. JUST. PLAIN. BAD.

I really like this Carl Sagan quote. It helps me to understand why bad things happen to good people.

"The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent." -Carl Sagan

I am sure it would not give any comfort to someone who has suffered a tragedy but it does help to put things into perspective.

Another great Sagan quote

"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." -Carl Sagan

And another...

"Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people." - Carl Sagan

What a great man he was.

I will operate from the other end of the spectrum as to what would it take for me to start believing in a Deity.

What would it take for me to start believing in a Deity? I would need to have the God that is being proven do a few things.

1) Be able to tell me out loud exactly what I was thinking in my head.

2) Be able to tell me the exact recollection of events that happened to me when I was alone at parts of my life.

3) Be able to do these things with other people being present and to also do these things to the people present as well.

3) Be able to defy the laws of Physics in front of me...such examples that I would be willing to accept are making fire burn in a controlled environment where no fuels exist. Turning Solid metals into liquids and gases in a controlled environment with no visible means.

4) Transport matter instantly from one spot to another, make matter completely disappear, duplicate matter, Create matter out of thin air ALL in controlled environments.

5) Make an amputee's limb grow back in front of a full team of Doctors, Scientists and specialists in a controlled environment.

6) Bring the dead back to life in front of a team of Doctors, Scientists and specialists in a controlled environment.

These are just a FEW of the things that I expect a Being of Great Power to be able to do without hesitation.

Now was that so hard to do? Answering the question?

Did I bash a certain belief system? Did I simply explain what I believed? Did I say that there would be no amount of Evidence that I would be willing to accept? Did I completely ignore the question?

I already know every argument that would be presented against these requests of proof so do not bother trying to argue against them.

Instead try and think of some examples of what you would consider evidence as proof that you could be wrong?

What if a bunch of different species of Aliens came to Earth and showed video of what really happened throughout history and proved that every religion was false?Would you consider this evidence?

What if the Government showed you a device that could implant visions and thoughts into your mind and even let you test it out to prove that it worked? Would you consider this evidence?

What if a new type of genetic disorder was discovered existing in certain people for the last few thousand years that gave people bouts of temporary hallucinations mixed with extreme emotion imbalance that led to euphoric associations? Would you consider this evidence?

Time to choose....Mr. FreeMan

reply to post by jon1

How much lower are we to God that that fly is to us

Then, I propose we ignore this same deity the same way that the fly would ignore us.

Originally posted by Thinking Ape
...
How could an all powerful "God" allow that kind of tragedy happen to a girl and her mother that HE apparently loves so much? Surely HE would have stalled the truck driver in some way as to prevent the accident the HE knew was coming. Oh wait, no need for god to intervene, it was HIS divine plan for her all along. I guess the mother should just go to church and thank god for her daughters holy fulfillment. Right?

I became Atheist through logical reasoning and the constant need for truth...

It doesn't prove the non-existence of a universe creator. However it certainly strengthens, for me at least, the disbelief in a god let alone an all-loving god.

That brings us to another common question.

Why does God let bad things happen?
Would it surprise you to know that Mother Teresa, one of the most revered nuns in the Catholic church, also felt the weight of that question. During her career with the Catholic Church, she felt the burden of seeing the whole world drenched in darkness. Everywhere she looked there was someone dying, starving, and in serious pain. As a result of her conflicting experiences, she wrote about them in a diary. One week after she passed away, the church released copies of her notes to the public. She questioned the existence of God on Earth, and it lead her to question the meaning behind faith.

After learning about her conflicts, I couldn't help myself from looking at the bible differently. Instead of seeing it solely as a biblical guide to moral behavior, I started to see the book of Genesis as a chronological (historical) outline. At some point in the book of Genesis, Michael the Archangel banished Lucifer from heaven. Where did he go? If you follow the story further, he ended up arriving on Earth. Even though he ended up being chained in hell, 2000 years ago, you cannot help but wonder if other angels also followed. Could other fallen angels still be here?

My problem is that I cannot prove my philosophy physically. I would have to use the bible, the only source for Christianity, and debate it against science, psychology, and other philosophies. Good luck to me.

[edit on 1-8-2009 by Pathos]