What will it take for you to Stop Believing!? (Deity)

I would enjoy more posting in your threads if you were seeking to understand and not to convince.

You can't convince anyone if you don't know all sides of the matter really well.

Stop preaching and open yourself.
You aren't going to and can't change anything besides yourself.

This is a sincere and friendly advice.
I wish you well my friend.

reply to post by infolurker

I believe the best "counter" is to call those who promote these ideals on who they truly are. There you have it.

holy! oh my, eh ya. i wish i would v'e said that.
its gotta be one of the best things i've ever read. can i use that?
i have to get a frame. ok i know . i'm gonna memorise the whole thing so i can just pop off w/ it at anytime. that was so great.
so funny how the title of this thread, makes our disbelief seem so important to the op.


[edit on 1-8-2009 by randyvs]

Now, I'm one of the Agnostics that you talked about and after reading your replies to other posts to this thread, I'm convinced that you don't want to understand people who believe there is a higher power. You would rather them shed those beliefs so they believe in what you believe in. The person who posted that fundamentalist atheist quote was spot on. The reason that I'm Agnostic and not Atheist is because I DON'T KNOW whether or not there is a god or there isn't. I'm completely neutral in the subject. Frankly, to completely dismiss the possibility that there may be some form of higher power because modern science doesn't have an explanation for it right now is being completely ignorant. I'm sure glad modern science can explain the entire universe and how it works and that in itself is evidence that there isn't a god. You're not thinking that maybe in the future there will be some sort of evidence that supports religion and the belief of a higher power. I laugh now because I know in 100-200 years the people living on Earth are going to laugh at us and wonder why we were so stupid to believe in the things that we believe in. So instead of bashing people who believe in religion, just accept them and go along with your own belief system. What do you care if someone doesn't have the same belief as you? Does your ego really need that much of a boost to have someone say "You're right man, those religious people are completely delusional. I'm glad there's somebody who knows the truth and doesn't believe in fairytales." You might be like other atheists I know who believe that without religion we would finally be able to advance as a species and work with science and logic to figure out the universe around us. Did you ever consider this: what if spiritual development is the path that leads you to knowledge and understanding of the universe. Sure, science can explain how the universe works through mathematics and logic, but does it answer why? Why are we here and what is our purpose? I believe this is the first stem of religion. To try and wrap our minds around that one question. Why? You can do all the math that you like and hypothesize and theorize about the universe and how it works until your brain fries, but those things will never answer the question why? That's why I think both of them could go hand in hand together. Both of them try to answer two very important basic questions that humans have been asking since we came about. How and why. Just try and be more understanding and want to learn all sides of the story before you start bashing people's beliefs. You're never going to gain knowledge by narrowing your belief system and dismissing everyone else's because they don't follow what you follow. Open your mind to the "possibility".

Ah, but you exist on a false polarity as well. Either that, or we see the concept of God in entirely different ways, which is not unlikely. There has always been an ideal in an order. When a society looses ideals, it dissolves into chaos, waiting for another order to emerge. I guess when it gets the perfect ideal, it will not crumble. Maybe this ideal is the God mind? There are absolutely virtues within science, such as the willingness to create a new model when the old fails, the desire to see the workings of things etc. How? But the question of "Why?" is equally important. "Why" improves understanding of "How," and vice versa. One might understand the nature of causation and emergence of orders in his or her specific universe, but until one can reorient primary perspectives in such a way as to see how they ramify in their respective universes, until one can interweave the various universes, see the universe arising out of the multiverses, until one has done these things can one understand in the slightest way the nature of "Why?" When one has tested the waters enough through action in everyday life, through making choices to have faith in the way that he or she has seen, but with a willingness to see something more beautiful, when one sees the interconnection of all, and sees that duality can be transcended, when one sees something more of a continuum than a series of opposing forces (at least looking down on the opposing forces), when one simply rises higher and higher in consciousness to the point of reconciling lower opposites, when individuals cease being divided inside themselves, when people do any or all of these sorts of things with modification for the perspective of the respective individual, then one starts to see "Why?" And it is impossible to explain directly, it is based on individual choice, and the desire to get it right in a sense, without need for any external affirmation, but still with a desire to at least see the other's perspective.

This impossibility of putting into words is precisely why I wrote this post in such a dynamic, swirling, stream-of-consciousness way. As of now, I cannot adequately explain it to you. You cannot adequately explain it to me. There is that part of reality far, far, far, far beyond the robotic machinations and infinitessimally small tunnel realities of science and any other thought construct.

You said yourself in your post 'God created everything, but who created God'. this is the very question that leads me to believe there is something that created everything. I don't think it was person, perse. Just a consciousness and we are all part of that consciousness.

Anyway, you can't get something from nothing so something has always had to be here so where did that something come from???

People also need to quit thinking in terms of linear time and the finite. And, when thinking of infinity, you can't think of a beginning. If there is a beginning to infinity, then it is not infinite, ergo, don't think in terms of linear time when trying to ponder the "beginning" of the universe. There may have been a "beginning" to our universal existence but it was just produced from probably another universe that exists and still exists. So every piece of matter already existed, it was just in another form.

Just like, I existed before I was born. I was just in two separate forms. An egg in my mom's ovary and a sperm in my dad's testicle (ewwww). Combine the two and here I am. My parents have always had the cells that would eventually form the eggs/sperm. And their parents had the egg/sperm that created them which created their cells that created the egg/sperm that created me. You see where I'm going with this...

This is similar in how our universe has, does, and always will exist.

I just can't believe that there isn't some greater force at work when pondering this.

And if you want to get waaaaay out of control. IF! there is a God ruling over us (from the old testament in the bible) I don't believe he is THE God. I believe whatever force created us was embodied in Christ. I'm not saying Christ was God in the flesh. I'm saying that THE life source of pure love and energy was embodied in Christ and, like he said, we can all do it too.

This old testament God WAS infallible and the proof was in his jealousy, anger, and egotism. Those are qualities unbecoming a supreme all-loving being.

reply to post by Eitimzevinten

Just because someone does something in the name of God doesn't mean He was behind it.

So how is it possible for the creator of "everything" to not be responsible for the actions for that which is alleged to have created ?

If something is not of the creator, then this would imply, that there is something that is other than the creator to create what the creator does not create.

Of course, the implication of this is that, the Creator could no longer remain omnipresent and could be relegated to co creator. This would be because there is that, which the alleged creator did not create or is not aware of.

reply to post by randyvs

hey ya know what? you just might be right mocoman. i was just thinking, about what a total injustice it is to humanity. having so many innocent lives, w/ so much potential snuffed out because they live in the wrong part of the world. then someone like you is allowed to flourish. NAH!

Do I take it that you give credit for your love and compassion of your fellow human beings, to the jesusyawhe god ?

Bless you to my friend

To answer your question, nothing will make me stop believing. My faith is a personal matter and you will believe in something, God or no God. Call it benefit of the doubt, but I can't imagine that all of this beauty around us was not divinely inspired or created.

Now, the subject of the Bible is something I have some issues with. First and foremost is what is being taught from many of today's churches pulpits. I will go out on a limb and say that they are just flat out wrong. And I believe that most of this can be traced back hundreded of years ago and that these teaching have been precipitated from generation to generation. I do believe that there are divine teachings, I just think some of the words or teaching have been twisted over the years to satisfy the church and not God. The Bible has been used as an instrument of fear for many churches and this is just wrong.

reply to post by Eitimzevinten


CONGRATULATIONS! You are the ONLY SINGLE person of religious faith to ANSWER THE QUESTION that the OP asked!

MODS if you can please take 500 ATS points off my Account and give it to Eitimzevinten if it is at all possible?

5 PAGES of replies and not one religious person had the gusto to step up and answer the question.

The REST of you ALL fell under one of the three categories that I mentioned on page one.

"I think you are going to hear either "nothing will make me change my mind" or you are going to have people change the subject by avoiding the question any way they can or just simply have people telling you what they believe and why." -Me

Republican I really applaud you for making this thread. You have taken more hits than the quarter back for the Detroit Lions.

As for the ONLY person to answer the question I applaud you good Sir/Ma'am.

Originally posted by Republican08
Back to the main point of the thread ultimately.

WHAT WILL IT TAKE FOR YOU TO GIVE UP YOUR BELIEFS.

If this is what you call a thread instead of a rant then your reasoning will never leave room for others to satisfy you.
The comment earlier on saying "we are god's brain cells" truly is a statement of brilliance. It doesn't require "faith" in the least. Nor the belief in any sort of deity.

b

Yet, here comes the uprising of agnostics.

"Well, the judeo god may not be a real god, but I still believe in a god, I feel obligated to, and until you disprove this being that I know nothing about, I will keep believing in him". What the hell? What is that? Honestly, this is your rebuttal, that somehow your thinking process' became retarded.

Theres nothing about that statement that is agnostic.

here is the definition of agnostic:

Dictionary.com

an agnostic is one who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God; an atheist is one who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods

I just wanted to make that distinction. Myself being agnostic do not believe in an anthropomorphised God. That basically being any of the descriptions of the any abrahamic religion deity.

But the word God, in my opinion, can not be defined. It can be anything. And therefore someone can not prove or disprove the existence of such a "thing"...

I Find it completely absurd that you (OP) would call everyone lunatics that believe in something greater than themselves.

You cant prove there is no god the believers cant prove there is a god.

I guess my point would be stop wasteing your time on it. Until you come up with a testable provable theory of creation then your argument is mute.

Theres nothign to be gained by trying to draw out the believers and agnostics into an argument that has raged since the dawn of thought. Its a shame to that you seem to not be able to even accept that people who believe don't care about your "supposed" truths about the nature of various deities.

Personally i fall into the same catergory as a tremendous amount of some of the greatest minds in history in that i just don't know.

I don't think any super powerful omnipotent being would give ultimatums and conditions to have a decent afterlife.

I also know that there is a ton we dont know. Its awfully bold for either the religious or the athiests to say they have any clue about god or any supernatural beings.

There is one small problem though, and that is that in the end something created all this. Wether its a god or super-intellegent being or just a quirk of nature something caused everything to be.

We can not ignore causality here. No known force of nature creates or destroys energy yet it is here.

If our reality is a hologram then its being projected onto something by someone/thing.

If its a quantum computer then it was designed.

If its membranes and quantum fluctuations that gave rise to our lil slice of reality then whats the cause of the membranes and quantum fluctuations in the first place.

Again we cannot ignore causality.

A timeless universe that just is. . . . that answer satisfies no one not science or religion. Even though the idea of timelessness is hard for people to grasp its even harder to explain. We cannot ignore causality.


Something/one kicked it all off in the depths of time or timelessness something caused all this to be.

And to the OP. . . you ask why people must insist that there is a god. I ask you why you insist there isnt? Do you have some form of omnipitence that gives you the ability to know and see all? Rather bold of you to go harping on the religious when your evidence is no greater than theres. From here on earth with your limited knowledge of anything you can rule out the idea of a god. . . . .

AHHH the same old debate, over and over. I wish it would just cease until there was any evidence one way or the other.


[edit on 1-8-2009 by constantwonder]

Nothing, it's not a belief to begin with. So, since it's not a belief, then it's quite impossible to take it away.

It's an understanding.

Now, here's my question to you. What will it take for you to realize that even if people didn't believe in god any longer, it's not going to change anything about the world?

There seems to be more, and more, and more substantiating evidence, mounting that Deities and such, are not real, or not at all how depicted in ancient texts.

I will most assuredly admit that both sides of this debate have a serious problem providing evidence; however, the people who are looking to prove God's existence are at the least following a logical scientific progression. They are seeking evidence to substantiate a belief.

On the other hand those that try to disprove the existence are working against any scientific progression known. They are trying to find evidence for non-existence. As I am sure we are all well aware, there can be no supporting evidence of non-existence. If something or someone does not exist, from what source do you gather evidence? Yet these are the very people whom refer to their opposition as "retarded", "stupid", "ignorant"...etc.

Have you ever wondered why scientist in general won't touch this subject with a ten foot pole? I'll tell you. It's because they are smart enough to understand that they cannot provide any evidence; therefore, they leave it for boneheads to debate amongst themselves.

It never ceases to amaze me that with all of the troubles in the world today, that there are still people foolish enough to search for evidence of non-existence just so they can put their own mind to rest.

From a speculative perspective: it seems to me that if an individual is searching for proof of non-existence, that they are in fact trying to erase some of their own self doubts that they keep locked away and in most cases do not even themselves realize it is there. But that is just my own view on it.

I think in the ideal world, people would just accept that other people have different beliefs and focus on what we have in common or what is for the better of mankind, instead of following the script of the powers that be and trying to further divided an already divided population. This behavior only serves one god and that is those whom wish to control the population.

[edit on 8/1/2009 by DarrylGalasso]

reply to post by Republican08

Now I can debate you, and for the most part win, that the Judeo god, hindu gods, allah, and others, are all hypocritical sadistic, bipolar, gods. That do what they preach against, and disprove themselves in the same text that many people believe in them.

I wish I could help you... but the crap I have had happen to me has proven there IS a force out there ready and willing to mess up certain people's lives for their own entertainment. It's own entertainment. And it's followers, who in my case, are the Christians. if I were Muslim, I am sure it'd be different names, diff faces, diff god, same song and dance. Same goes for any other 'religion'. But I can tell you... there's something out there, and it aint nice.

reply to post by St Vaast

' We are God's brain-cells '

Well, that explains why God has rodents in the cheese factory of his mind quite well.

In order to make a person stop believing in God, I think we would have to first examine why people believe. Personally religious belief/spirituality is something I have been struggling with a lot as of late. Now I do not mean to try and speak for all believers, but for me personally, I see belief in a higher power as a means of obtaining purpose in life. Life is not an easy thing, there is constantly struggle, hardship, and pain, and I feel that without some "reason" to endure the negative aspects of life many would take their own lives. But if one feels one is working toward something or has some purpose one can justify the hardships encountered and thus can be happy despite all of the negativity in the world.

Now, working under the assumption that one believes in God to have some over-arching purpose or goal, I think the key to making the person stop believing in God would be to provide some other over-arching purpose. If one could make a person who believes in God find some other over-arching purpose, reliance on a God-figure would not be as necessary, at which point I feel the person who believes in God would be more receptive to persuasion against the existence of a God.

But the question is now, where does this put those who do not believe in God? My conclusion is that these people (while not necessarily inferior or superior to those who believe in a God) simply have a different "purpose" in which they can attribute themselves to and maintain happiness. I wouldn't say one option is better than the other, merely each person finds their own way to justify the negativity of the world to themself.

So ultimately, to answer your question, I think that before one can be convinced God does not exist one must have some overarching purpose or goal in which one can attribute oneself to, and with that in place the simple arguments against the existence, if presented correctly, could make a person stop believing. On a similar note though, I feel if a non-believer's "purpose" is stripped away, upon the search for a new purpose one can be swayed to believe in God as an explanation and reason to endure the pain of life.

In the end I feel that one should not be stripped of God if one believes nor should God be forced upon one if one does not believe. I think the most important thing is the fact that one can look past the negative aspects of life and be happy. After all, it is one of the hardest and most painful things to have a feeling of hopeless worthlessness, so I feel trying to persuade those who have what they need should be discouraged, rather, I would suggest instead turning to those who do not have that over-arching purpose and try and help them move in one direction or the other.

Alas, I have created a rather large assumption about people's beliefs which may not be accepted by all. Even if my assumption does not seem logical, I hope it has at least provided something to consider.

I believe in God because it P*ss-off atheist's, Evolutionist! And watching them having a tantrum is just too funny for words!

[edit on 1-8-2009 by MOTT the HOOPLE]

[edit on 1-8-2009 by MOTT the HOOPLE]

Originally posted by Republican08[snips]
But then again, why can't the universe be the same, why does it have to be a person? Now, i'd just like to know, why the world needs a creator?
Some people claim well we have conciousness, ergo there must be a god. Why? Why do people feel this insistent urge to believe they were created, purposely or unpurposely?

First of all, I've seen Him so it's a moot point. www.carm.org...

God is not a person, but appeared in a person form in Jesus.

A creator is needed because (1) you can't make something from nothing and (2) the law of entropy shows there was a beginning of something.

People feel this need because (1) the creator made them with this feeling and (2) it's a winning bet.

So, first of all I didn't read any replies to this thread because it's such a hard subject to argue. I already have in mind what I believe the world is like, and I agree with you Republican08, but it's not worth trying to change anyone's mind. Every fundamentalist/born again Christian I have EVER talked to have proven to me that they already know every thing there is to know about the world, but the way they interpret it all makes the difference. The evidence I use to prove the absence of God (the complexity of the biosphere, for example) is the same evidence a Christian uses to prove the existence of God. Everyone has a different perception of reality and if some people need an imaginary friend so they can be a better person or not feel lonely, then let them live their pathetic sheltered life in the only way they know how to be happy ...

**Can I just say that although I don't agree with any organized religion, I definitely respect that people can whole heartedly believe in something with no proof or physical evidence to back it up- I just don't think they're smart.