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Jury Weighs Faith-Healing Death Case Against Girl's Dad

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posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 03:26 AM
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UN-BE-LIEV-ABLE

This is so sad. This is why the evangelical community needs to take a hard look in the mirror and see what is pouring out of it.

Goddamn the people that filled this mans head with this insanity.

Evangelicals wonder why there is such discontent within people outside of the church. Its because many of these Churches teach this kind of stuff.

I dont know if that is the case here, but either way the man should go to jail even though it was his daughter that died. It must have been so hard. He shoudlnt be allowed to walk a way free from this. Maybe it will help him realize his extremeism is out of hand...if the death of his daughter didnt accomplish that already.


I have a sad story like this as well. I didnt find this out until I was well out of high school.

My mothers mother died of a brain tumor when she was in her 40s because she would not go to the hospital to get it taken care of. She thought she could pray and God would heal it.

Things like this should never be allowed to happen, and I fear it happens all to often. It gives such a rotten twist to religion...




posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 04:29 AM
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This is tragic, and yet another strong case for rejecting all religion.

Religion is manmade and evil, and goes directly against God and Jesus.

This child had a right to live, and her deluded parents took her life.

I would really appreciate it if people would stop aligning Christ with the so-called Christian church. It may have started on the principles of Jesus, but it has deviated far away - as have all religions.



posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 05:21 AM
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reply to post by Muckster
 





ok... I’m a Christian and, despite what moocowman and his/her evil cult of nihilists think, I’m proud to be a Christian. However, this man who allowed his daughter to die, is guilty of stupidity, neglect or has a mental illness.



Well it's cool to see an xtian with balls enough to try and defend their religious delusion.

By the way I am a he and am not evil, if i am and thereis a creator of everything then you should thank it for creating me the way I am.

You claim this man is stupid and guilty of neglect, I claim he's deluded and guilty of neglect I think the term is by proxy ?

So you and I my friend are on the same side more or less, we both observe that praying to jesus doesn't actually work but this man believed, that the charter of Jesus was real and that Jesus' promises in relation to prayer would heal his child .



So, jesus is imaginary or a liar or the man did not have enough faith for jesus to respond to his prayer.

I opt for the obvious, that jesus is imaginary, you no doubt Muckster, being an xtian and all, will claim that jesus is real and then continue to make excuses for Jesus not healing the child as promised, such as he moves in mysterious ways or prayer is not intended for selfish things like eradicating illness.







As a good friend of mine (who is also a Christian) once said "Christians who pray for everything but take no action are just stupid and lazy"


Clearly the friend you hold in such high regard is arrogant and ignorant, the only thing which was required by Jesus in relation to prayer was a little faith as small as a mustard seed. Obviously your friend has yet another version of what jesus had to say or he hasn't actually bothered to read what is already in print.





If you see a starving man and you have a bag of potatoes do you pray for him or give him a potato??? Doesn’t take too much intellect to work that one out.


So, what if you don't have any potatoes yourself? According to Jesus yahweh god all you need do is pray believing that the dude will be fed and it will be done. Unless of course it doesn't which is normally the case.





As for declaring Christianity an "evil cult" because of this... Well... apart from the fact that it is EXTREMELY offensive it’s also stupid
.

No, I claim the situation is a result of xtianity being an evil cult.

So why is it offensive if I observe xtianity to be an evil cult, who exactly is being offended and why ? If you personally are offended by my observation perhaps you need to grow up, or as jesus would say "forgive me".






How many Children are abused, neglected, murdered every day by people who don’t believe in God???


Nowhere near as many as those that do, and according to many xtians there are few atheists about so if all none believers were as evil as you claim, well then we'd all be on death row wouldn't we ?





Should we start a campaign against the Godless breeder’s moocowman??? Ridiculous and offensive!



Here's the thing, should my child become ill I take her to a doctor who happens to be Muslim or Buddhist or an atheist, who uses scientific method to diagnose the child.

This same scientific method is the one that shows us that the earth is more than 6000 years old and that it extremely naive to believethat a man could possibly live inside the belly of a fish.


The heathen doctor will then prescribe some drugs manufactuerd by the evil big pharma ,you know those big rich companies that according to christians are run by the antichrist.

So come on Muckster which do you have, faith in jesus or health insurance ?


If you have health insurance please explain how this is compatible with putting your faith and trust in the jesus yahweh god ?

Why do you choose to financially support evil health insurance companies, have you so little faith as an xtian, do you pay up just in case jesus decides no to help you out ? Or do you pay into the pot because you relive jesus controls the insurance companies.


Dude don't go round calling people stupid till you look very closely at the things you claim to believe, and ask yourself why you believe them.



posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 05:34 AM
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reply to post by moocowman
 


Hey Moo,

I always enjoy debating with you.

I say, praying to Jesus DOES work.

DOWN WITH RELIGION!!!

At least we agree on that one.



posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 06:30 AM
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Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by moocowman
 


Hey Moo,

I always enjoy debating with you.

I say, praying to Jesus DOES work.

DOWN WITH RELIGION!!!

At least we agree on that one.


Hey dude cool to see you too

So then if praying to jesus does work why do so many xtians take out health insurance do you think ?

Are they deep down afraid that praying will not work ?

Does the fact that there is no documented testable non anecdotal evidence, to show that praying to jesus does work, have an influence on xtians going to an Isalmic doctor ?

So far as I can ascertain, should my child contract Leprosy (created by jesusyahwehgod no less) all I need to do is is follow jeses' instructions, IE pray to jesus believing my child to be healed and it will be done.

Jesus said nothing about taking the child to a middle man/woman in order for the middle man to inform me what malady god created and inflicted upon my child.
Neither did Jesus mention anything about the middleman relying upon other middlemen to provide an antidote for the illness.

Or is it the case, that those who don't have faith the size of a mustard seed, should rely on science to heal the sick.

It stretches credulity to the very limits, to claim that jesus heals the sick indirectly through the medical profession.

No doubt the claim will be that when jesus said "Ask that this mountain shall be moved --" he neglected to mention that he would influence someone to invent TNT so as to blow the mountain away.

The fact remains that regardless of how much praying to jesus is done, not one single amputee has had his limb regenerated in all recorded history.



posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 06:35 AM
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What GOD would allow the girl to die...

O how terrible it will be for those of you who refuse to grow up.



posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 06:42 AM
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reply to post by moocowman
 


Firstly, don't blame Jesus for the plagues that beset mankind.

Secondly, yes, take your kids to the doc, pronto.

And thirdly, um I forgot your point.

But Jesus DID perform miracles - if you believe in Him and the stories.



posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 06:44 AM
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reply to post by spellbound
 


Oh and yes, don't talk to me about the Church so-called Christians.

They are NOT Christians.



posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 06:59 AM
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reply to post by spellbound
 

I'm sure we did this bit before lol



Firstly, don't blame Jesus for the plagues that beset mankind.


If jesus is god and is the omniscient/omnipresent creator of all that there is,was or ever will be. Then there is "Nothing" that was no, is not or will not, be created by him (jesusyahweh), obviously this includes "ALL" lifeforms which includes "Viruses".

Needless to say, if there are any lifeforms (viruses) that are not created by jesus then this would obviously mean he did "NOT" created everything and is no longer the sole creator.




Secondly, yes, take your kids to the doc, pronto.



Clearly then, ones faith would be in the "scientific" experience of possibly a satanist doctor and not jesus.





But Jesus DID perform miracles - if you believe in Him and the stories.



Fairies can give to you 3 wishes- if you believe in them and the stories.



posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 07:02 AM
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Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by spellbound
 


Oh and yes, don't talk to me about the Church so-called Christians.

They are NOT Christians.


For the benefit of all the christians that are unaware they are not xtians and also ignorant no believers such as myself.

Pleas enlighten us as to what a "Christian" actually is and on what authority you make this claim, who told you you are right ?



posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 07:04 AM
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reply to post by moocowman
 


Yes we did LOL

So, what are we getting into now?



posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 09:18 AM
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Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by moocowman
 


Yes we did LOL

So, what are we getting into now?


Well we seem to be going around in circles my friend, I note with interest the lack of input from the xtian community in relation to this thread. Perhaps the subject matter is a little too scary for those with less bollocks than yourself.


Let's break this matter up into bite size chunks and scrutinize it shall we ?

I of course will have to bear in mind that not all xtians that I've ever spoken to,read,or been threatened or loved by are real christians as you claim to be.


So, we have a man who claims to be a christian, now one would assume that as he believes in the power of praying to jesus that would qualify him as being a christian.

From my point of view ,the mere claim of being an xtian is enough to qualify him unless of course you can direct me to the final arbiter and authority on who is and is not a christian.

Fact - The man claims that he believed wholeheartedly that praying to jesus would heal his child.

Fact - The man lives in the most religious nation on earth where millions of people every Sunday go to church to receive (and pay good money for) healing by Jesus. So one would expect the rest of the nation to be somewhat sympathetic to his plight.

Fact - Regardless of how long or sincerely the man prayed, his child died.

Fact - In this instance Jesus did not only ignore the mans' request but showed zero compassion and allowed the child to die.

Fact - If Jesus is god and the creator of everything, then there can be nothing that has not been created by jesus.

Fact - Should there be anything that is not created by Jesusgod then this means that jesus yahwehgod , is not omnipresent and certainly not the one and only creator.

Fact - If jesusyahweh god is omnipresent and the creator of all that there is, then this includes all life forms which obviously includes any viruses or bacteria.


Fact - As jesus created all bacteria and viruses, all viral infections are caused by Jesus, so when a person becomes ill with a virus it is the omnipresent jesusgod that created the illness.

Fact - The xtian scriptures clearly tell the christian reader that jesus quite specifically promised, that "whatsoever" is asked for in prayer with a very very small amount of faith (how faith can be measured is beyond me, you either believe or you don't ) will be given.

Jesus did not say if or but he clearly said "whatsoever", as far as the man in this story is concerned, then jesus was clearly talking to him and clearly promised to heal his child.


Conclusion =

The child is dead, her father was either lied to or jesus is an imaginary delusion that exists in the mans mind.
No population that overwhelmingly claims to be christian with such zeal, as to invade other nations in defense of this belief could possibly take a moral tangent and claim the man has done anything wrong in that religious/spiritual paradigm.



posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 07:13 PM
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Originally posted by spellbound
This is tragic, and yet another strong case for rejecting all religion.

Religion is manmade and evil, and goes directly against God and Jesus.

This child had a right to live, and her deluded parents took her life.

I would really appreciate it if people would stop aligning Christ with the so-called Christian church. It may have started on the principles of Jesus, but it has deviated far away - as have all religions.




Very true spellbound. Christ was a peace-loving hippie, not an uptight conservative prick. many of today's "Christian" voices are just Pharisees.

i say spirituality, not religion.



posted on Aug, 3 2009 @ 09:52 AM
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A few updates and a bit of background on the case:


Dale Neumann told investigators that "given the same set of circumstances with another child, he would not waiver in his faith and confidence in the healing power of prayer," according to the interview statement.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


Source

So not only did he let one child die from using prayer instead of a doctor, he is completely unrepentant about it and would let a second one die as well. That is completely unacceptable to me. It's bad enough he let one child die in an attempt to prove his faith, but to let a second one die?

The article also states that he told investigators that his family isn't religious, but a relative says they were Pentecostal and the parents were reportedly starting up a small church in their coffee shop. Non-religious people generally don't start churches, so I think it's safe to say the man is religious.


Ironically, county officials were on the way to the Neumanns' home the same day to perform a welfare check on the girl after the Marathon County Sheriff's Office got a call from Kara's aunt Ariel Gomez of California expressing concern about Kara.

Before officials reached the home, a 911 call came from the Neumann house about a medical emergency.

Gomez called the sheriff's office three times that day about her niece's medical condition, according to the sheriff's office.

"My sister-in-law is, her daughter's severely, severely sick and she believes her daughter is in a coma," Gomez is heard telling the dispatcher in one of the 911 calls released by the sheriff's office. "And, she's very religious, so she's refusing to take [Kara] to the hospital, so I was hoping maybe somebody could go over there."

Gomez asked authorities to send an ambulance and warns the dispatcher that Leilani Neumann will fight attempts to intervene. "We've been trying to get her to take [Kara] to the hospital for a week, a few days now," Gomez told the dispatcher in one of the calls.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


Source

I'm curious why the Aunt waited a week to call 911 when she was told how poorly the girl was doing. Had she called after the first day or two, the girl might still be alive. It's just sad that they didn't get there before the girl stopped breathing.


Neumann's jury — six men and six women — deliberated about 15 hours over two days before convicting him. At one point, jurors asked the judge whether Neumann's belief in faith healing made him "not liable" for not taking his daughter to the hospital even if he knew she wasn't feeling well.

. . .

Assistant District Attorney LaMont Jacobson told jurors in closing arguments Friday that Neumann was "overwhelmed by pride" in his interpretation of the Bible and selfishly let Madeline die as a test of faith.

Neumann knew he should have taken his daughter to a doctor and minimized her illness when speaking with investigators, Jacobson said, calling Neumann no different than a drunken driver who remarks he only had a couple of beers.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


Source

The jury came back with a guilty verdict on Saturday, and rightly so in my opinion. His daughter has already had to pay the price for his actions, it's only right that he suffer the consequences as well. The sentencing is set for October 6th, so we won't know what the parents are sentenced to till then, but the maximum either of them can get is 25 years in prison.



posted on Aug, 3 2009 @ 10:05 AM
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This is no differant from that boy with cancer a few months back who was forced into chemo.

One used medicine from an Indian doctor and this guy used prayer. Both equally ineffective.

I do recall the majority dumping on the courts for getting involved with the cancer boy though. I wonder if those who supported the boy not wanting cancer would have felt the same if instead of drinking vitamin water he prayed for his cancer to go away.


The dad should go to jail in this case, just as I thought the parents of the boy should have gone to jail.



posted on Aug, 3 2009 @ 10:32 AM
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Well i'm an atheist:

I've always said why spend all that time praying to a god who may or may not exist (in the eyes of the so called believers), when he could have got off his arse and physically done something about his dying child.

Alas, his prayers went unanswered and the child died. Surely this is punishment enough for the man, who has just had his faith crushed by the lack of help from his non-existent God.

Sadly though i think this would do very little to change the life of such a man, as he has already more or less killed his child.



posted on Aug, 3 2009 @ 12:00 PM
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Originally posted by mr-lizard

Sadly though i think this would do very little to change the life of such a man, as he has already more or less killed his child.


It won't. One of the articles I quoted from in my last post reports that he told investigators he would do the same thing if another of his children becomes deathly ill. He's killed one by not seeking medical help, and is prepared to kill another by praying over them instead of getting them to a doctor. He doesn't seem to realize that his children shouldn't be used to prove his faith in his god.



posted on Aug, 3 2009 @ 01:21 PM
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reply to post by jd140
 





This is no differant from that boy with cancer a few months back who was forced into chemo.


Actually there is quite a difference, chemo is highly controversial. The treatment of diabetes, not so much.



The dad should go to jail in this case, just as I thought the parents of the boy should have gone to jail.


I don't believe that prayer alone is a reliable treatment. However I disagree with these parents being prosecuted.

By parents being prosecuted in cases like these it supports a growing precedence that you must support the FDA/ AMA type treatments. If not you could be held responsible for the death of your child. Some may say that this is reasonable however I hope these individuals support the idea of forced vaccinations, antibiotics, and pharmaceutical based "medicine" in general.











[edit on 3-8-2009 by harvib]



posted on Aug, 3 2009 @ 02:20 PM
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reply to post by open_eyeballs
 





he jury came back with a guilty verdict on Saturday, and rightly so in my opinion. His daughter has already had to pay the price for his actions, it's only right that he suffer the consequences as well. The sentencing is set for October 6th, so we won't know what the parents are sentenced to till then, but the maximum either of them can get is 25 years in prison.


Thanks for the update, clearly then the US courts have found that praying to jesus does not actually work it has now been borne out in the case of this guy.

Needless to say, the man should be set free for compassionate reasons and also receive psychiatric help for his religions delusion.

The courts should also take this opportunity to have publishers of bibles immediately recall all copies in circulation and remove all references to the alleged power of praying to jesus.

Likewise given the constant referral to supernatural powers within the bibles, all copies should carry a warning as to their contents being fictional.

A class action law suit should be instigated by the convicted man and others like him against the churches for misrepresentation resulting in the death of his child.

A good example of a misrepresentation case are the law suits in relation to the brainwashing Amway corp.

Let's hope this is the beginning of the end of ridiculous claims of the effects of praying to jesus.

Let's hope the convicted man is left alone to recover from his ordeal and the loss of his child to an imaginary jesus/yahweh god.



posted on Aug, 3 2009 @ 03:21 PM
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Originally posted by harvib

By parents being prosecuted in cases like these it supports a growing precedence that you must support the FDA/ AMA type treatments. If not you could be held responsible for the death of your child. Some may say that this is reasonable however I hope these individuals support the idea of forced vaccinations, antibiotics, and pharmaceutical based "medicine" in general.


You're going to have to explain how being held accountable for letting your child die while you pray over them instead of taking them to the doctor translates into supporting forced vaccinations. They are nowhere near being the same thing. Going to the doctor when your child can't eat, drink, walk, or talk is common sense, that's what saves people lives. Being forced to take a new vaccine that may or may not be necessary and may or may not work as intended is a completely different topic. So by what logic are you tying the two together?

This is twice I've asked. Can you support the claim or not?



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