Why read the Healthcare Bill? Here is why!

one tactic disinfo agents use is to debate and pick apart a post. this gets a response to each point. and after 10 posts anyone new to the topic gets disinterested.

cranberrydork picks little things like oh i didnt mention US constitution but just constitution. Im surprised he didnt hit me for not capping the C as well.

Fact - if the US Constitution does not specifically grant a power to the federal govt then it does not have it. Such power resides within the states or with the people.

The Constitution does not grant the federal govt to create these agencies such as Homeland Security or the Dept of Education. These powers and responsibilites reside with the people and the states.

There is no authority to regulate anything that we wish to put into our bodies. Thats why at first the federal govt didnt outright make pot illegal. they knew it was unconstitutional so they made that ridiculous marijuana stamp act bs. Eventually though the people stopped paying attention and the feds ignored the constitution.

Freedom of speech and the right to assemble to protest is a right we are born with. The constitution simply states that these rights arent granted by the govt (because a govt could take them away). we are born with them. Yet these days there are severe restrictions on these rights we're born with.

The Consitution says that only congress can print money and it must be backed by precious metal. Yet we allow the illegal federal reserve to print money backed by NOTHING.

So lets stop pretending this govt of the USA follows the Constitution anymore. This healthcare plan is nothing more than an orwellian nightmare.

Originally posted by admriker444
an orwellian nightmare.

But it's an "orwellian nightmare" only you and a specific subset of the population are living....

Try living the nightmare of having a loved one in treatment for a serious illness and wind up flat friggin' broke because the goddamn insurance company has decided the patient's treatment is over.....not the doctor, not the therapists.....the goddamn insurance company. That's not some fictional "orwellian nightmare"....it's real and lived by thousands everyday.

Live that for a little while, then take your stupid tinfoil hat opinions and stick 'em up your ass.

reply to post by cranberrydork


The facts are in front of you, it is clearly stated, they plan on legally

euthenizing the elderly. Clinics are sending paper work home with the

elderly, just for this purpose.......Their last wishes, except the government

will decide how and when they are carried out!!! I know many who have

recieved them from their Doctors.

reply to post by cranberrydork


this healthcare bill, will be worse, I hear what your are saying, I a nurse

I see this stuff, my dad has cancer, believe me I feel for you, but this

bill will make sure if your elderly, and sick you won't be at the top of

the list!! They will decide who, when or if you get treatment. The

government, not your Dr. WILL DECIDE!!!

Originally posted by admriker444
The one thing not being debated is the most important...

is this plan legal ?

answer - NO !

Wrong. This is only a bill... a proposal. Similarly if you only plan or propose to eat, you will starve to death, unless you actually do it.

The constitution does not grant the govt the power to create a mandatory healthcare plan.

1. NOWHERE does anything in the bill say this plan is "mandatory".
   
   1. if it does... show me where!
   
   
2. Wrong again. There is noting preventing any provision of a government insurance plan.
   
   1. As proof: what the heck do you think Social Security is? It is insurance. Every State I know of provides for Unemployment Insurance.

Nor does it give them the power to take this money from our paychecks.

I'll agree with you on that one... but that is a whole other bag of Infernal Revenue Service *bs*, that is not appropriate for this thread.

The second most important question not being asked...

can we afford this ?

answer - NO !

Now that is a reasonable question! And, in all honesty, I have no idea.

Theli93 & cranberrydork are both disinfo...

Theli93 just signed up two days ago now and only has six posts. Five of them here on this thread "debunking" the health care bill that has all of 12% support at OpenCongress.org. They certainly are NOT scientific; but the people that care enough to look into this are being heard and their answer is NO.

It's easy to find & quote his only other post...

From Thread: 3 Songs To Help You Survive. What Would they Be? The Psychology Of Surviving.
Posted by Theli93, on August 1, 2009 at 01:23 GMT

I don't know about my next 2 but number 1 would have to be "Bare Necessities" from Disney's Jungle Book. For me, it's the original don't worry, be happy song.

post by Theli93

You've been completely discredited and are headed toward ignore just because your arguments are worthless in my opinion.

There are some really good posters on ATS that you are insulting with your shallow analysis of "random points." They aren't random and they aren't analyzed. The biggest over arching concern is that it is proposing health care to run by the gov't; and they have their hands full as it is; they can't take on health care period.

I can see that this bill could only be viable if they spent a year or two on it AND it would be covering 5000 pages not just 1000. The bill has some good points and I use the word some very loosely.

As it stands this bill is scary to any American with a clue. It now makes sense why our reps. don't want to read these bills... Just sign on eith your parties leaning and vote along that line. Get re-elected. Not in my area.

I just got home from a family gathering and even the few democrats there were screaming about this bill. Our representatives and senators are all out. We will see to it. Just the 40+ people at the party and there was not one dissenter. Incumbents are absolutely out on their asses.

Personally, I've already emailed 20+ and those at the party are spreading the word about this stupidity. Americans aren't going to take it. Those in the media that I've already emailed are very good at vetting this and look for even more info coming out in the mainstream on Monday.

Heads will being rolling and no debate will stop it now.

reply to post by truth/seeker

Originally posted by truth/seeker

 

The facts are in front of you, it is clearly stated, they plan on legally

euthenizing the elderly.

Okay, I'll bite... where are those facts? Show me? Tell me where that is in the bill... or any where else. I'll go look it up for my self, if you'll tell me where.

I do not trust our government, nor the AMA, nor the FDA, nor a bunch of other of large entities. However, unless you can provide some sort of evidence, you're not even proposing a reasonable theory.

You're just expressing your opinion... your "blind faith" in something that you hear or saw somewhere else.



reply to post by truth/seeker

Originally posted by truth/seeker

 

this healthcare bill, will be worse, I hear what your are saying, I a nurse

I see this stuff, my dad has cancer, believe me I feel for you, but this

bill will make sure if your elderly, and sick you won't be at the top of

the list!! They will decide who, when or if you get treatment. The

government, not your Dr. WILL DECIDE!!!

Once again; where's your evidence? I don't think it will necessarily be wonderful, but at present I don't see where this will be any different from any other health plan provided by any other insurance provider.

If you have health insurance (and you say you're a nurse... so you better) try reading through the leagal contract of your plan. You will likely find it is much the same.

reply to post by DrMattMaddix


Doc, your response here is nothing short of cheap and juvenile. Cross posting my comment from a completely unrelated thread... I mean come on... Please!

I can't, in good conscience, even honor any of your comments with quotes from your own post, as the threatening garbage is just too much of an insult to you.

Proclaiming everyone a disinformation agent because they don't agree with you is well... nevermind. Are you actually willing to enter into intelligent debate, or do you just expect everyone to bow at your feet as Pope of the proposed health care plan.

As I said before; I am awaiting your research and evidence.

I truly hope your better that your last response!

reply to post by Theli93


We've already discussed this at family. There is no further debate on this bill as it stands. Even those in family that were apathetic are stirred up.

Personally, I've seen enough of this crap. I don't care for the details of private health care either. Knowing this crap HR3200 is from the gov't... that's it.

They've gone too far. Heads will roll if this passes. Word is getting out. People are reading the bills. Even if they are alarmists and prone to panic. Cool heads prevail. If you aren't concerned about this HR3200 you haven't read enough of it or you are paid disinfo.

Maybe Charlie and his 2 attorneys can splain the details to you if they ever get through it. I'm not a lawyer and I understand a lot of what I read.

Tell those that pay you to post. If you are unpaid, you being cheated.

BTW yes I can quote you. I like to know more about someone... I still look for info on Obama; all locked away in vaults unreleased and all by his order. Now we won't ever get a chance to have known him.

Originally posted by cranberrydork

Originally posted by admriker444
an orwellian nightmare.

But it's an "orwellian nightmare" only you and a specific subset of the population are living....

Try living the nightmare of having a loved one in treatment for a serious illness and wind up flat friggin' broke because the goddamn insurance company has decided the patient's treatment is over.....not the doctor, not the therapists.....the goddamn insurance company. That's not some fictional "orwellian nightmare"....it's real and lived by thousands everyday.

Live that for a little while, then take your stupid tinfoil hat opinions and stick 'em up your ass.

so your solution is to support a healthcare plan that was written by the very same insurance corps along with big pharm ???

It would be better to let some accountant decide that its too expensive to treat your cancer because the success rate isnt high enough ?

wow...

Originally posted by grapesofraft
reply to post by getreadyalready

 

Great OP. A star and flag for you. I dont think they will stop at Socialism. I think they are making a run at communism.

im sorry but what has this to do with communism or socialism ?

please answer me because i have no idea of what you are refering to in context of what political views and healthcare have in common ?

are you saying all doctors communists or socialists because everyone is treated equal ?

or are you saying the goverment is one of the above political views for having its citizents equal no matter class or creed ?

im sorry but im lost could you please explain ?

heres a paradox for you to ponder about, i´ll leave you with a line from the The Hippocratic Oath ,

Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves.

z

Why do people against the healthcare bill also support corporate welfare? Remember that Obama is doing his best for the citizens not the banks like baby bush did.

Originally posted by truth/seeker
reply to post by cranberrydork

 

The facts are in front of you, it is clearly stated, they plan on legally
euthenizing the elderly. Clinics are sending paper work home with the
elderly, just for this purpose.......

No they aren't....you're just making stuff up. I'm calling you a liar or delusional.

reply to post by cranberrydork


I did recieve one of these forms myself, and I threw the dam thing out

wish I now had the form number to prove it, but I don't, but im sure

most clinics, well at least where I live have been giving them out for

awhile...........but since I can't prove it, does'nt make me delusional!!!!

You have to resort to name calling etc. get real!!! do some research!!!

THIS IS JUST MY OPINION, but what do I know Right, a hell of alot

more than you!!!!! I pushed my ignore button for you BYE!!!!!!

[edit on 2-8-2009 by truth/seeker]

reply to post by truth/seeker


agingwithdignity.org...

this is the link to the pamphlet the Clinics are handing out, its called

your 5 wishes, what it does'nt tell you that under this new Health Care

Bill, is they will, THE GOVERNMENT will decide WHEN AND IF YOUR

YOU GET THESE LAST 5 WISHES!!!! Do the research!! Im just being

honest, and posting facts.........IMO!!!!!

First I'd like to thank theli for picking apart my comment.

My result was far different than I had intended to type... making it look like I had interpreted that passage of the bill stated that the viruses were reclassified as vaccines.

As our elected officials are prone to mistakes and held to a lessor standard than forums; I'll admit that my statement was absolutely misrepresented and I should have "Recalibrated my words".

Any Federally Recommended Vaccination no matter WHAT it is shouldn't be in any bill. Why? Because an FAV will likely turn into a Federally Mandated Vaccine that will be required once you are sucked into the system.

I sincerely appreciate your research on this... however, it still stands that gov't need not be directly involved with healthcare. They can 'nudge' the private sector.

There are too many red flags that ARE obvious and are NOT modifying nor repealing nor restating the passages in ANY other bill. Those red flags should be noted by congress and rewritten immediately. BUT as I said there isn't any more debate on this.

My opinion the red flags mean kill the bill now. Put it on hold since [color=#00BFFF]this thread supercedes all else at the moment.

Let's all pray for a prompt resolution as has been filed for in the US District Court in Santa Ana CA... It was stinkey and smoggie as a kid there, but man, they are upending the country.

Originally posted by truth/seeker
Im just being honest, and posting facts.........IMO!!!!!

You can't have it both ways......claim your posting facts and then throw in the weasel words, "in my opinion." It's one or the other, which is it?

Shame on you for using cheap, tawdry tactics to pervert the efforts of the organization Aging With Dignity and attempt to link their altruistic goals with some nonsense lies in order to stir up more fear and doubt.

Aging with Dignity is a national non-profit organization with a mission to affirm and safeguard the human dignity of individuals as they age and to promote better care for those near the end of life. The life and work of Mother Teresa of Calcutta served as the inspirational foundation of Aging with Dignity

And

Five Wishes helps you express how you want to be treated if you are seriously ill and unable to speak for yourself. It deals with all of a person's needs: medical, personal, emotional and spiritual

Aging With Dignity

You have zero clue what you're talking about.

reply to post by cranberrydork


"Actual content...
15 ‘‘(iii) A program for orders for life sustaining
16 treatment for a States described in this clause is a
17 program that—
18 ‘‘(I) ensures such orders are standardized
19 and uniquely identifiable throughout the State;
20 ‘‘(II) distributes or makes accessible such
21 orders to physicians and other health profes
22 sionals that (acting within the scope of the pro
23 fessional’s authority under State law) may sign
24 orders for life sustaining treatment; "


Regarding the usage in line #23 of the word "may":
The use of this particular word implies that an option exists for such an order, but does not expressly say that such an order is a guaranteed fact.
Meaning without an "order for life sustaining treatment"...sorry Charlie, but you you are just SOL.

Minor point? I think NOT. Wording in any piece of legislation is very important, as the interpretation of the words lead to confusion.

We have enough confusion interpreting the words in the Constitution
of the United States of America, though the writers of said document were not PAID anywhere near what the authors of this piece of garbage are compensated.

reply to post by pyrytyes

We have enough confusion interpreting the words in the Constitution
of the United States of America, though the writers of said document were not PAID anywhere near what the authors of this piece of garbage are compensated.

And that document is only a couple of dozen pages, not 1000 pages!!

Imagine the legal hula-hooping going on in this 1000 page document to achieve whatever end any body wants to interpret from it!!

There has been some terrific discussion, and I appreciate all of cranberry's criticism. For me the root of the problem is that it can be interpreted in so many ways even among us common folk! Imagine the nightmare scenario when this stuff goes into a courtroom with teams of lawyers on each side and someone's life hangs in the balance. Three parties will be represented, the patients, the providers, and the governments! Now that the government is the provider and the judges and lawyers are extensions of said government, who do you think will get a favorable ruling after all the legal gymnastics and confusing lingo?

reply to post by getreadyalready


My version of a health care bill:

I visit my primary care physician....(s)he submits bill to Uncle Sam for payment...PCP receives payment from Uncle Sam.

I get a referral to see specialist from my PCP...I visit specialist...specialist submits bill to Uncle Sam...specialist receives payment from Uncle Sam.

Could it be any simpler? I would gladly pay 3%, and more, of my annual salary...And overall, my plan would not cost nearly as much as HR 3200.