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RAF Chief: 'Govt To Halve Warplane Order'

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posted on Jul, 31 2009 @ 12:01 PM
reply to post by RichardPrice

Recently declassified documents from britain and America would disagree with you and britains role when it comes to Suharto.You should read Web of deceit by mark curtis and The new rulers of the World by john pilger if you haven't.Great books.

posted on Aug, 2 2009 @ 09:17 AM
The Eurofighter is the best modern fighter out there... I am surprised that the UK will be cutting their defense spending too. They must feel real confident in their existing fleets.

posted on Aug, 2 2009 @ 09:20 AM
We will have to cut it for the same reason that everyone else is, including the USA, the recession. It is a consequence of propping up the banks and major industries, there is no bottomless pit of money.

posted on Aug, 5 2009 @ 12:01 AM

is that with or without engine sir? would sir like a spares package as well? maybe training? add tax of course and your air fund tax and we`ll get you a real cost...

Unless for some reason, "Unit production cost" of 69.3£m includes all of the above, then the Typhoon has the same limitations. I have seen significantly lower, uncited, costs, but then again that does not include Tranche 3, nor does it include inflation. Tranche 3 itself does not have the TVC, only "provisions" for AESA, CFT's and further weapons integration - all of which would take a hell of a lot of money to integrate. Furthermore, the F-35 price is generally in 2002 dollars, or future year, depending on who you listen to. i.e. 100 million 2008 dollars is in no way comparable to 130 million 2025 dollars.


Prodi administration Undersecretary Forcieri stated in Parliament that with regard to the Typhoon, “there is no competition with Jsf in budgetary terms particularly because neither of the two programs represents a duplicate of the other. The multirole Jsf is, indeed, a fifth and latest generation aircraft; thus not a competitor of the fourth generation Eurofighter, which has complementary technical and strategic characteristics.”


With regard to the program cost increase over the past years, during the Prodi administration Undersecretary Lorenzo Forcieri confirmed to the Italian Parliament that “the agreement provides for different and greater costs to be absorbed by the United States and not by the other partners. Our participation is therefore limited to that which was indicated in 2002 and that is not a contribution that can escalate.


According to the latest Dod estimate of April 2008, the average stabilized
cost (i.e. obtainable in full production and not in the initial Lrip of the program) Urf (Unit Recurring Flyaway cost, including airframe, mission system, vehicle system and propulsion system) runs to 49.5 million dollars for the Ctol and to 61 million dollars for the Stovl. (2002 dollar)

also you can`t compare the F35 as sold to the USA by lockheed to the rest of them - as i have allready shown , the export version will be a degraded monkey model

The only thing you have shown, is that funding has gone into developing a version of the F-35 that is compliant to the "National Disclosure Policy Committee", "but remains common to the U.S. Air System, where possible.” You have no such details of how significant these changes are, and furthermore, there are no modern US weapon systems with any significant downgrade.

Until then, everyone is going to wonder what that $737 million actually covers.

" International partners have signature key performance parameters (KPPs), presumably based on what the US briefed to them"


That $737 million does NOT exclusively go into downgrades either. Simply put - you don't know, nobody who will speak knows. My original statement still stands.

It was also stated back in 2004 that Australia will not get the same F-35 as the US.

Ambassador Schieffer—I think the joint strike fighter will be the best airplane that has been built and it will be without peer in the world. The fact that Australia is in the development stage of it will be extraordinarily beneficial to Australia in the long run. It gives you an airplane quicker than it would be if you were not in the development phase. It guarantees you that you will get the best airplane that is available to anybody. It also gives you the opportunity to have input into what kind of airplane it will be.

With regard to the stealth technology, the airplane that Australia will get will be the stealthiest airplane that anybody outside the United States can acquire. We have given assurances to Australia that we will give you the absolute maximum that we can with regard to that technology. Having said that, the airplane will not be exactly the same airplane as the United States will have. But it will be a stealth fighter; it will have stealth capabilities; and it will be at the highest level that anyone in the world has outside the United States.

However, that was back in 2004. After that happened, this happened.

... Bae Systems Ceo Mike Turner said that the United Kingdom “was now able to acquire whatever JSF technology it wanted from the US." A positive example of this came in October 2006 when Northrop Grumman delivered to Bae Systems and four subcontractors in the United Kingdom and United States the structures and software required to test aircraft systems – including stealth technologies - through computer simulations.

And then.

According to senior IDF officers, the Defense Ministry and the Pentagon have reached understandings on most of the major issues that have been at the core of disagreement between the sides.

Israeli demands have focused on three issues - the integration of Israeli-made electronic warfare systems into the plane, the integration of Israeli communication systems and the ability to independently maintain the plane in the event of a technical or structural problem.


And then NACC lead, the US Government, and Lockheed say Australian stealth is identical? I am not (any more) going to say the F-35 the export F-35 will be identical, but the statement, "It won't be in any way comparable", or whatever, is simply, and completely made up. Infact it's a complete non-issue that keeps popping up. Reminds me of the F-16/J79 saga, infact, and we all know how that turned out.

also a nice read - the typhoon has RAM on the fronst edges , and the inlet faces are hidden

Unlike the F-15SE.

As for the Air Power Australia RCS simulations on the F-35, it's interesting, but they have flaws in numerous ways. Maybe that's for some other time though.

And also...

The official position taken by the (Italian) Air Force Staff in 2002 states that “indeed the Eurofighter would not in itself cover the entire aero-tactical need because its configuration, optimized for the air superiority role (...) will never, anyway, be able to acquire the stealthiness relied upon by current first day of war employment doctrines in enemy territory." In strategic terms today there is "no credible European alternative to the Jsf to replace the aircraft which will be withdrawn from service in coming years”.


With regard to this, in September 2007 General Vincenzo Camporini, then Chief of the Air Staff, stated in an interview that he did not believe that “the Typhoon are fully adequate to meet the national air defense requirements and offer expeditionary potential. We cannot therefore also use them as fighter bombers. For this role we have instead chosen the F-35. We will therefore have aircraft specialized in specific roles.

The F-35 on the other hand is not only poor value for money in terms of purchasing, but also increasingly unwanted by most airforces.

First of all, you are completely off mark.

Second of all, how many of the 9 partner nations have bugged out? None? And how many other nations are looking at the F-35? Singapore, Japan, Israel, India, Finland, Spain, Greece, & Taiwan? That makes >20 Air Forces, total. That is despite of course, the cancellation rumours that emerge about every two days that always end up wrong. Conincidence? I think not - making things up sounds about right.

Third of all, the Eurofighter is not designed to compete with JSF, despite what Eurofighter press releases say. It will never and can never become a STOVL, stealth, 5th generation, multirole strike fighter. Likewise, the JSF is not available today, and does not have the top end kinematics of the Eurofighter.

Four of all, the F-35 has fantastic value for money - even with pessimistic price estimates. However, it only has to prove itself first. Not a huge problem, most countries only need new aircraft from 2015 or later.

And if anyone truly wants a good write up on the JSF, look no further.


The Institute's main objective is to promote an understanding of the problems of international politics through studies, research, meetings and publications, with the aim of increasing the opportunities of all countries to move in the direction of supranational organization, democratic freedom and social justice (IAI Bylaws, Article 1).

(96 page report covering most issues.)

[edit on 5/8/2009 by C0bzz]

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