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Satan vs Lucifer

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posted on Jul, 31 2009 @ 11:59 AM
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reply to post by silent thunder
 





There is a great deal of vagueness about these two (one?) characters.


They are vague because they are imaginary beings, created by an imaginary god, that is the lead character in several editions of fictional books.

The authors of these books are unknown but some imaginary names have been given to some of them over the years, with the intent of making these fictional works appear more factual.

Incredibly, over the centuries many people have come to belive, that many of the characters (particularly Satan/Lucifer) are actually real entities.
What is most striking of this delusion (commonly called Christianity and/or Judaism) is that the majority of people that believe in the reality of the characters within these (very poorly written and edited books) have "never" actually read the books.

One can only ascribe this strange illness to a child like mental block, akin to a youngster hearing about the latest batman comic but being too lazy or stupid to read it but then believing his/her best friends mischievous insistence. That the joker lives in the closet and will carve you a new smile when your sleeping, unless of course you hand over some money.




posted on Jul, 31 2009 @ 12:26 PM
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My understanding is Lucifer a high being or Arc Angel the light bearer.
Satan was the fallen Angel Samael.
The Devil comes from Pan.

3 seperate beings.



posted on Jul, 31 2009 @ 12:26 PM
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reply to post by moocowman
 

I also agree with you on this, that Satan/Lucifer are imaginary as well as all the magic that is written in the book. However, the main question being addressed in this topic is the difference (if any) between the characters of Satan and Lucifer in the bible. whether the characters are real or not is not the issue at hand, but if there is any evidence for both Satan and Lucifer to be separate beings or one in the same (think of this as analyzing Dracula or the creature of Frankenstein).

From what i gather there is no evidence for both characters to be the same, but it appears later writers made the mistake of associating Lucifer with Satan. This means the fall never occurred within the story, so who is the messiah suppose to stop? would this be another contradiction in the bible due to an internal misunderstanding? If the fall never occurred within the canonical bible, then were does this "devil" character come from?

what are your thoughts on this?



posted on Jul, 31 2009 @ 12:33 PM
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Originally posted by newworld
reply to post by moocowman
 

From what i gather there is no evidence for both characters to be the same, but it appears later writers made the mistake of associating Lucifer with Satan. This means the fall never occurred within the story, so who is the messiah suppose to stop? would this be another contradiction in the bible due to an internal misunderstanding? If the fall never occurred within the canonical bible, then were does this "devil" character come from?


No evidence for Satan and Lucifer being the same person ?????

Contradiction in the Bible ?????

I must be reading a different one than you



posted on Jul, 31 2009 @ 12:48 PM
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reply to post by starwarp2000
 





I must be reading a different one than you


Not directed at me but...isn't that the point. Everyone is reading a different, usually incorrectly translated version of the bible.



posted on Jul, 31 2009 @ 12:48 PM
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reply to post by starwarp2000
 

Well, according to the source i found (and a few others did), the only mention of the fall of Satan was the fall of Lucifer, who happens to be a babylonian king. So if this does not mean that Satan fell, but it was instead a king, then where else does the mention of the fall of Satan appear?

the source is in the first 2 pages of this thread if you are interested in looking it up. I do believe there are contradictions in the bible. but i'll live that for a completely different thread when it comes up again eventually.

So please look it up, I read the bible back then when I was catholic (about eight years ago). Now, as a literature student, this issue is driving me nuts





posted on Jul, 31 2009 @ 12:53 PM
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reply to post by Apache-Yaqui
 



Hi Apache/

Im sorry, Who are your people?
I don't understand your post?

ICXC NIKA
helen



posted on Jul, 31 2009 @ 12:54 PM
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reply to post by newworld
 


These passages refer to the fall of Lucifer!!!

Ezekiel 28: 12 - 15

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

And also references in Revelations, about the Dragon's tail sweeping down a third of the Angels.

I will read your reference and get back to you.



posted on Jul, 31 2009 @ 12:57 PM
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reply to post by liveandlearn
 


There are no really "incorrect" translations of the Bible (Except for a few minor faults) as they came from the original Hebrew (Old Testament) and Greek (New Testament).
The problem comes when humans interpret what is written and compile books and thesis's about the subject and these become the story, not the original text.

There needs to be a return to the Bible. What is written is the truth.



posted on Jul, 31 2009 @ 12:59 PM
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reply to post by helen670
 


You too helen670?
I am having trouble believing some of the posts made here.



posted on Jul, 31 2009 @ 12:59 PM
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deleted post because it was just way to out there and I didn't want to get utterly ridiculed.

[edit on 31-7-2009 by nunya13]



posted on Jul, 31 2009 @ 01:04 PM
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Originally posted by Apache-Yaqui


only slave is ppl who accept everything they're told instead of listenin' to reason and their hearts.


Haha...that's so funny you said that because a born again Christian friend once told me that following my heart was the work of the devil after she asked me why I believe what I do and that I should just believe what the bible teaches and I told her that i believe what I do because my heart tells me it's right and that some things in the bible I do believe are right but not everything.

She left saying that the devil was influencing me. I cried. What a horrible thing to say to a friend. It's people like that the devil works through, if there is a devil.



posted on Jul, 31 2009 @ 01:06 PM
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reply to post by nunya13
 


I've also read that the concept of "Lucifer" is in fact the true identity of the Human Soul. This is collaborated by the biblical myths of a 'fallen angel' and the 'fall of man', both of which are said to have resulted in some sort of expulsion into the nether regions.

[edit on 31-7-2009 by Neo__]



posted on Jul, 31 2009 @ 01:12 PM
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reply to post by starwarp2000
 


Just for arguments sake, if you didn't read my post on the previous page you could at least check the links. One is Christian and the other Judism both referring to the translation of Lucifer

This is the second link's understanding of Satan IsrealofGod They believe that Satan could be the King of Tyre.

I have no opinion in that matter.



posted on Jul, 31 2009 @ 01:14 PM
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Originally posted by starwarp2000
reply to post by newworld
 


These passages refer to the fall of Lucifer!!!

Ezekiel 28: 12 - 15

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

And also references in Revelations, about the Dragon's tail sweeping down a third of the Angels.

I will read your reference and get back to you.




the key word there is "son of man". this can't possibly be referring to the fall of satan, since he is an angel/archangel (i forget which) and not a human being. And I see that you checked the source and came to the conclusion that the translations could be wrong. but the thing is that scholars have looked at the issue between Lucifer and Satan in the original texts and that's why the general consensus seems to be that they are different beings that were confused into one as time went on.

however, i believe you are right in that the bible needs to be translated again, without errors using the best translators out there. a new, authoritarian version of the bible needs to be printed (basically the definitive final version) without errors and as accurate as possible.



posted on Jul, 31 2009 @ 02:05 PM
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reply to post by SPC_D
 


what do you mean Christians identify Lucifer in three's?



posted on Jul, 31 2009 @ 03:17 PM
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Check out THIS thread - "Can man be Satan?"

www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Jul, 31 2009 @ 03:24 PM
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Just read this site. www.xeeatwelve.net... it will give you a better understanding of many things.




posted on Jul, 31 2009 @ 03:30 PM
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Lucifer wasnt banished from heaven, he hasn't fallen, he is still God's right hand man.
He does hate man like legend says and he puts man through trials and tribulations and tries to steer them in the wrong direction, thing is, he does this with god's approval. He is basically the one that tests man's faith.


 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 



posted on Jul, 31 2009 @ 03:42 PM
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Originally posted by skeetontheconspiracy
Lucifer wasnt banished from heaven, he hasn't fallen, he is still God's right hand man.
He does hate man like legend says and he puts man through trials and tribulations and tries to steer them in the wrong direction, thing is, he does this with god's approval. He is basically the one that tests man's faith.


 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 


WRONG. it's SATAN the one who is still working for god to test man's faith according to the story. Lucifer has been established in this thread to be the fallen babylonian king; who happens to be confused with Satan by many people.
Apparently the fall never occurred within the story of the bible so he must still be working with god.

Although i don't believe in any of this stuff, i still find it interesting. just though I'll clarify the difference



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