Satan vs Lucifer

a wise direction to take a look at is to begin to see the concepts of "jesus" "satan" and "lucifer"

not as movie theater good guys or bad guys in the primitive sense that they're actually PEOPLE...

but in a broader symbolic method whereas they represent psychological aggregates of certain aspects of the human experience.

i know it's difficult to het out of a line of thought you've been conditioned to think..

but it's a real liberating and inspiring breath of fresh air to view them as such.


take "satan"... in hebrew "shaytan" meaning "the adversary" ...

in the human experience we have our intellect, our emotions and our physical aspects to our being.

satan is represented in illustration as a man with horns and a tail and hooves.. similar to the greek satyr..
a man with animal features..

representing man as what he is at the base.. an "intellectual animal" ..
literally constantly obeying his physiological system.. to survive, enjoy sensations.. and reproduce..

"jesus" representing the intellectual emotional virtuous aspects that his brain allows him to experience.

to EVOLVE PAST being JUST an intellectual animal.. one can take metaphorical parables that the character Jesus spoke, and integrate this into our daily lives as a pathway to a life above and beuond that of a mere intellectual animal..

and this "adversary" .. this "satan" .. our animal instinct our BODIES.. are constantly tempting us away from this virtuous life..

this isn't to say it's black and white. .ie: "sex is bad".. "don't enjoy anything" .. only be altruistic.. that's BS and represses your urges.. and they only build up inside.. unexpressed.

the real goal would be to HARNESS SATAN.. and use what he IS.. because he IS your bodies...
and use that to stand upon as a pedestal .. in order to reach higher heights and eventually LEAVE HIM below.. in the dust.

the concept of "lucifer" .. luci=light fer=ferry.. to carry... lucifer = light carrier.. or bringer..

is the concept of knowledge... ultimate knowledge..
and to use that knowledge to defeat the adversary.. and behold the light.
to scientifically achieve the intellectual means to the end.. the end being.. the habitation of the body of light..
to raise the kundalini serpent that tempts us to taste the fruit of the orgasm..
to engage in coitus.. and resist the orgasm.. so the creative force to create a new human being .. is inverted against itself.. and creates WITHIN.. the CHRIST.. when the tempting serpent of kuindalini is harnessed.. it rises through your nervous system's trunk.. the tree of life.. up the river jordan.. your spinal column.. all 33 vertebrae.. degrees...
until it rises UP the spine.. to the top.. to GOLGOTHA.. the place of the skull.. where the crucifiction occurs...
and fills the ventricles of the brain.. all 6 seraphim wings of the ventricles.. and crystalizes around the pineal activating the hidden "commandmends" within the two stone slabs.. of the two lobes of the pituitary... to send these ten "commandments".. these ten hormones.. to your endocrine system.. to activate a metamorphic physiological change ... which is the creation of the SOLO-MANs temple.. and erecting of the true ark of the covenant within your brain.

have all the orgasms you want.. enjoy them.. being an intellectual animal.
when you're ready for something more than that..

make love with someone you love.... and omit the orgasm.
practice kundalini yoga.
you will feel your endocrine glands activate in the metamorphosis when their corrosponding "chakras" begin to flare... this is no joke. it's real.. you'll feel it hardcore.
but then again.. do tadpoles believe they can turn into frogs?

this is what all of this mythology is about.

Operative Masonry has found a way to activate this metamorphosis within certain genetic groups in the melting-pot gene pool of america.. thorugh spraying the byssus of the tabernacle of the ark..
the golden rain of zeuse he rained on the virgin in order to conceive Perseus.
The virgin mary is the virgin land of the U.S. .. the "pregnant woman" spoken of in the book of revelation.
her child is the people of israel.. the tribes of genes that have recombined to be succeptable to the byssus sprayed.
and they.. collectively are "pregnant" with new bodies .. forming within them... just under the surface... more than meets the eye.

this is known by the folk-term "morgellons" ...
red white and blue byssus fibers of the tabernacle of the ark of the covenant and the veil of the temples of solomon.

the spraying is almost over.... "Project Cloverleaf".. is almost over.. the White Horse of Revelation is almost done it's run... next is the Pale Horse..

"Operation Garden Plot" .. is the reaping of these "ripe fruit" people..
this is who's really gonna be rounded up in the swine flu sacrifice before the abomination desolation of the pale horse... (zombie apocalypse beginning on jan 15th 2010... (see the cchronoclysm link in my sig for a movie on that)
they're to be taken to a place prepared in the wilderness..
to BURN like the phoenix.. from a nest of accacia wood... '___'-a-liscious.
for 3.5 yrs.. while the false prophet ruler rules.. until their return..

and rise from the ashes.. indeed.. in God we trust.


hear me now ... listen to me lay-ter.


so.. omit the orgasm in coitus.
learn of the caduceus and kundalini.. in order to ascend.

LITERALLY.


-

[edit on 31-7-2009 by prevenge]

Originally posted by bsbray11
Maybe someone else can answer my questions about where Satan, Lucifer, and Hell exist exactly, whether or not its a 3D space-time environment, and whether physics would apply there or not?

Where is Hell? Where is Satan, exactly? [/quote


hell comes from old word that means burin' something underneath.i've to come back on that 'cause i can't remember if it came from greek but example

witch comes from the word wit which means wisdom
just like heresy comes from other greek word that means free choice. when they called you hertic it was code word for meani' you are a free thinker

Lucifer; the bringer of light or knowledge, also the morning star or the planet Venus is described in myths and traditions from cultures around the world.

Venus or the morning star was known as;

1. Kukulkan by the Maya, plumed or feathered serpent
   
   
2. Quetzalcoatl by the Aztec, feathered serpent
   
   
3. Wakinyan Tanka, the Great Thunderbird by the Native peoples of North America
   
   
4. and one of the four housemen of the apocalypse in Revelations
   

All of these have connections to the planet Venus and refer to Venus as the morning star, the bringer of light after a catastrophic event that brought the Earth out of darkness. The connection I made to Revelations is tricky and I assume will not be taken well by many.

Venus is refereed to as eternal life or fertility by the Egyptians bearing the ankh or looped cross.

The planet Venus resonates with Earth's orbit in several ways but the near commensurate 8:13 orbital ratio aligns with Earth 5 times that make a perfect pentagram or 5 pointed star. I have spent a considerable amount of time on this from an astronomical perspective in reply to what I thought was a very odd question, "Was the Plant Venus a Comet?"
What I have been learning is stunning!

I keep coming across connections to this in the Myths of the Native Americans, Maya, Hopi, Egyptian, Greek and even in the Book of Revelations.
The one thing I see is that this is a historical record rather than a prophecy which brings up the question of how the Apocalypse in Revelations is considered a prophecy.

Originally posted by bsbray11
Maybe someone else can answer my questions about where Satan, Lucifer, and Hell exist exactly, whether or not its a 3D space-time environment, and whether physics would apply there or not?

Where is Hell? Where is Satan, exactly?

The argument I pose on the concept of hell is that it's a fabrication, fear propaganda for the purpose of usurping control.

I read a very good likeness to Hell in the book of Enoch described in a dream Enoch had involving the fate of the fallen angles. Pre-diluvian times, "When the Angles saw that the daughters of Adam were fare and took wives of them." The fallen angles could not die but they were punished never-the-less.

I have yet to find any reliable reference to hell being a place God sends humans. Personally I like George Calin's take on religion. Profane Warning, words that should not be used inside the church!
George Carlin on Religion.

[edit on 7/31/2009 by Devino]

hell is the reality we choose to have

Originally posted by bsbray11

That's an interesting opinion. Mind if I probe you for a few questions?

Where do you think Satan or Lucifer exist? Or where hell exists? Do you think they're physical beings or that hell is a physical place, or is it non-physical? If it's non-physical, do you think quantum physics still applies there, or time itself, any of those things?

Well firstly Lucifer doesn't exist anymore! His name was changed to Satan, so any reference to Lucifer is just a historical reference.

Satan is an Arch-Angel (albeit a fallen one) and is made of spirit.

Satan sits on the throne of the Earth at this moment!!! He will remain there until Christ returns and removes him.

There is no actual reference for "Hell" in the Bible. The words which were mis-translated to the English word "Hell" are:

Hebrew: "Gehenna" a valley near Jerusalem where garbage was continually burned in a constantly burning fire.

Greek: "Tartaros" a holding place for evil Angels and spirits.

Would a loving God punish his creations for eternity?

You need to ask yourself this question!!!!

Wouldn't he just kill them as a payment for their sins??? Why would a loving God extend their punishment for eternity??

Hell is just a Catholic fantasy made up to continue their pagan worship and clothe it in the garments of christianity.

Originally posted by chiron613
Satan is not the "protagonist" of the Jews. Satan, to the Jews, is nothing but an angel of the Lord, one who obeys God (check out Job - Satan didn't do anything to Job without God's permission).

"Lucifer" comes from a verse in Isaiah, which is talking about a human king, not Satan. The reference to "Lucifer" compares the King of Tyre (or Tyrus) to the planet Venus - Venus is known as "Lucifer", the bringer of light.

What???? How can a human, (The King of Tyre) be perfect???

Read this chapter in Ezekiel again!!! It switches from a human element (The king of Tyrus) to a non-human element (Satan)!!!

I don't think the king of Tyrus was in Eden, was he???????





[edit on 31-7-2009 by starwarp2000]

Originally posted by Devino

Originally posted by starwarp2000
reply to post by silent thunder

 

Lucifer was the name of one of the covering Cherubim depicted on the Ark of the Covenant. He was one of the angels that stood on either side of God's throne.

Lucifer: "Bringer of light"

Satan: "Enemy of God"

Correct me if I'm wrong but the names of the Cherubim, or Angles, on the Ark of the Covenant were Gabriel and Michael. Does this mean Lucifer was also the angle Michael?

Sorry but i am about to correct you

Where in the Bible does it say that Michael or Gabriel are or ever were one of the covering Cheribum on the throne of God?

As i understand Gabriel is God's messenger and Michael is Captain of God's Armies!!!!

But it does say that Lucifer was one of the "Covering Cheribum"!!!!!


[edit on 31-7-2009 by starwarp2000]

reply to post by starwarp2000


Here is the verses in Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

NOTE: Starts out with a mortal human person (THE PRINCE OF TYRUS) and then switches:

Ezekiel 28: 12 - 15


12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.



[edit on 31-7-2009 by starwarp2000]

Haudi All

Isnt Satan just something a guilty catholic priest made up?

possibly went something like this....Woopsee, i did bad things, god forbid i take responsibility for my own actions, hmm how bout we create a bad guy, say he made me do it and that way we can scare the congregation into submission under the threat that this bad guy could get to them too.

If im going to be misled. Ill do it myself thanks.

have the best day
themuse

i just do not understand.......

oh nevermind, i'm sure i'll just get flamed anyway lol.

please continue

reply to post by anonamousantichrist


Hi anon/

Please do go on,give us your idea of Lucifer?
You wont get flamed by me


Crossing paths again!

ICXC NIKA
helen

This idea just struck me:

The so-called "problem of evil" has been (and continues to be) a major thorn in the sides of ALL monotheistic religions. Put succicntly, the theory has it it that it is logically impossible for God to be both all-powerful/omnicient and all-good at the same time if evil can be said to exist. If God is all-knowing and thus aware of the evil, and has the power to stop it but doesn't, that implies a supreme being who is either evil himself or at the vary least unecessarily allows this to go on. Thus he can't be said to be "all-good." If he is truly all-good and wants to but cannot stop the evil for some reason, that mean he can't logically be said to be "all-powerful."

EVERY monotheistic religion has hand to struggle HARD to come up with a viable answer to this, and much of the theological history of Christianity, Islam, Judasim, Manicheanism, Nestorianism, Gnosticism, etc. has involved extremely complext debates and careful dissections of the various questions involved. Its far beyond the scope of this post to go into any of these in specifics.

The "dualist" approach solves the problem radically by simply positing Good and Evil are forever seperate and locked in a timeless yet dynamic harmony, much like yin and yang. Manicheanism and Zoroastrianism took this appproach. In Zoroastrianism there is good, and there is evil, and never the twain shall meet. Much of Gnosticism follows this solution in various ways, too.

Christanity has tried to solve the problem in various ways. They reject the above pure dualism because it implies that God is not all-powerful. A popular (and to me) attractive solution is that posed by St. Augustine: Evil is simply defined as distance from God. God "made us in his likeness" and thus gave us FREE WILL which was his most precious gift. We have abused that gift by going AWAY from God of OUR OWN FREE WILL, first through The Fall and more generally from the sins we commit in life. God proves his goodness by sending Christ to redeem us despite our misuse of free will. It's an elegant theory, but (like all such theories) is imperfect and one can argue endlessly. Many make careers doing so.

Given all this, I wondered if the whole issue of Satan and Lucifer was left INTENTIONALLY vague, almost as a political move. By keeping the issue carefully undefined and not-much-addressed, the church cleverly allows people holding both dualist and monist sympathies to read what they like into these myths. In other words, these myths are wide enough to accomidate a very wide range of interpretations -- as long as we all agree not to talk/arge about it too much, we can get on to more pressing issues: such as gaining more converts and avoinding being tossed to the lions.

I wonder if something like this lies behind a deliberate vagueness of these terms.

[edit on 7/31/09 by silent thunder]

reply to post by silent thunder


i think you're right about the vagueness, i suppose if you're writing a book and you think up a monster its better (if your goal is to scare) to focus on what he/she/it can do to you and how evil and bad it was, rather than giving it a detailed backstory.

I know this is redundant but a lot of people don't seem to understand. Lucifer is a translation that occured about 400AD. The word satan was always in the bible...Lucifer was not.

'Satan' is שָׂטָן Satan in Standard Hebrew, Śāṭān in Tiberian Hebrew, סטנא Sāṭānā' in Aramaic, Σατανάς Satanás in Koine Greek, Satanas in Latin, شيطان Šeytân in Persian, شيطان Šayṭān in Arabic, ሳይጣን Sāyṭān in Ge'ez, Şeytan in Turkish, and شيطان Shāitān in Urdu.

Wikipedia

Below is from a post I made on another thread.

Lucifer is simply Latin for Venus or the morning star

The term Lucifer in fourth century Latin was a name for Venus, especially as the morning star. The Latin word Lucifer is composed of two words: lux, or in the genitive form used lucis, (meaning "light") and ferre, which means "to bear" or "to bring." So, the word Lucifer means bearer of light. The same word is used in other places in the Latin Vulgate to translate Hebrew terms that mean "bright," especially associated with the sky:
source

Satan is identified with Saturn in mythology.

From 'The Secret History of the World' by Mark Booth

While the result of the influence of Satan is that life is often hard to bear, it is as a result of the influence of Venus that life is often hard to understand...

3. In A.D. 382 Pope Damascus commissioned the scholar Jerome to make an official revision of the Latin versions of the Bible that were floating around in the Catholic Church. Jerome went off to a cave in Bethlehem where he proceeded to make his translation, supposedly based on the Hebrew text, but in practice based very largely on the Septuagint version (i.e. "LXX") that Origen had produced about 140 years earlier while in Caesarea. (The truth about the LXX is another subject that I have discussed in a separate paper.)

Anyway, by A.D. 405 Jerome had completed his work, which we today know as "The Latin Vulgate" Bible. It is far from an infallibly accurate translation of the original texts. Rather, it is an interpretation of thought put into idiomatic, graceful Latin!
For a thousand years this Translation was without a rival--and herein lies the problem!
4. Jerome had understood that Isaiah 14:12 is talking about Satan. There the Hebrew word "heylel" is used and Jerome translated this into Latin as "lucifer"!

source

. Now let's look at the Hebrew word "heylel"--

It is used only once in the Bible, in Isaiah 14:12. That does not give us any further insight. But "Heylel" is derived from the primitive root word "halal" It is this word that gives us understanding of what "Heylel" really means. I might add here that this is also the only way that Jerome and the English translators could come to an understanding of what "Heylel" means--by clearly understanding the meaning of the word that "Heylel" is derived from, since it is only used one single time.

12. "Halal" is used 165 times in the Old Testament and it is translated as follows in the KJV:
117 times = Praise
14 times = Glory
10 times = Boast
8 times = Mad
3 times = Shine(d)
3 times = Foolish
2 times = Fools
2 times = Commended
2 times = Rage
1 time = Celebrate
1 time = Give
1 time = Marriage
1 time = Renowned

This should make clear that the translators felt they should attach over a dozen different meanings to this word "Halal." The meanings are both, good and bad; both, positive and negative.

To me it is clear you can not trust a translation and that is what is being used to identify a being called Lucifer...a mistranslation that everyone now accepts as truth.

Satan is NOT replaced with the SON OF GOD! This is NOT Christianity. If that were True, then why does the Book of REVELATION say that "In our age of apostasy preceding the manifestation of Antichrist, the devil has been loosed for a time (Apoc. 20:7) ,..to gather in his hellish harvest of those souls who 'received not the love of the truth' (II Thes. 2:10). Loosed for a time?

Hi Helen,

You're right, this isn't what Christianity teaches. Christianity has a lot of their wires crossed when it comes to the idea of Satan. Satan, the accuser, used to be at the left hand of God. He was under the authority of God to do whatever he liked to test man. You can see evidence of this in Job. (also, look at the left side of the Kabbalistic tree of life, that side represents Judgment, as in the accusing/black and white side of God, which is represented by Satan. The right hand of the tree of life includes Love and Compassion, which is where Jesus is situated if you believe he ascended to the right hand of the Father. )

Also, taking Revelation too literally ends up with people believing that actual horsemen are the rides of the apocalypse and and that lambs with 7 eyes are going to save the world. You have dig a bit deeper into the symbolism to see what John was saying.

reply to post by starwarp2000


I couldn't have said it better myself. I believe you are right on target with this. You explained it perfectly.

It's good for the OP to bring this topic up, he/she couldn't have chose a better time frame to do so. S&F. It's important that we understand the difference between Lucifer and Satan.

We all have a good side and a bad side. The best way I think to explain it is sort of like the Yin and Yang. If you have two dogs in a kennel and one is bad(mean) and the other is good, naturally which ever animal you decide to feed, nourish will be the strongest or most powerful of the two. The devil chose to feed the bad dog. Unfortunately the majority of the human beings in the world have chosen to follow suit, at least so it seems.

Edit: Afterthought.

[edit on 31-7-2009 by Zeus2573]

[edit on 31-7-2009 by Zeus2573]

I'm no bible scholar or anything. but it appears to be like this: Satan is suppose to be the accuser of god, a servant of god. Lucifer was a king (or the way a prophet referred to a king) who fell from his throne. As time went on lucifer was confused with Satan and the story of the fall of Satan was accepted as true (despite no evidence of that).
so now because of that mistake, the ones who wrote the new testament and parts of the old testament ALSO confused this detail and took the fall of Lucifer as the fall of Satan.

Now, both names are interchangeable, despite the fact they were suppose to be different entities. (one the accuser of god and the other a king).
Is this correct?

Good and evil are relative terms for us humans. In the other kingdoms of nature there is no good and evil, everything just is. "We", however, view our world in black and white terms but seem to overlook the concept that light and darkness exist together within a single whole. This is the secret of the Yin and the Yang. They seem to be separate but in fact exist together as One. Think of the dark side of planet existing simultaneously with the light side of the planet.

Human beings hold that position in nature where we are aware of both of these extremes. We are intimately aware of our physical, materialistic and form nature, yet we are also somehow (and increasingly) aware of an internal, spiritual and formless side. This is our plight. We, as humans beings, the fourth of seven kingdoms in nature, stand at the balancing point between the form and the formless.

Our history and culture has personified these two extremes into Satan and God, but, I believe, as we become more and more and more aware of who and what we truly are then we will begin to view these two concepts in a completely different light, (no pun intended).

reply to post by barKochba


Hi bar/

I will read Revelation, but I wont have my OWN translation...this is why it is dangerous to do your own translation of what may or is the outcomE Of Revelation.
Of-course there are no Literal horseman?
The Book of the Apocalypse is FULL of symbolism.
I know this!
All that is really needed to understand in The Book of the Apocalypse is..
The End of Times has come.
The New Testament is what is most Important.

Temptation is what Satan is about...the more we STRUGGLE in this life,the less wordly things we think about.
When we are all hapy and all things go well eg/healthy and good times, The more we forget God.
To actually be tempted is a good thing for the soul.
Here is a story told by an Elder(monk)...
There was a lady in church who sat in the corner crying,the Priest noticed this, and asked his wife to see this poor woman and ask her what the matter was.
At the end of the Service,the priests wife asked the woman what ailed her, the woman replied...''All is fine, my family has food to eat and we are all well''
The priests wife told her husband(Priest)and he understood what the problem was!
When all is FINE then there is no remeberence of God...Only in times of Troubles and STRUGGLES in life,we turn to God for help!
Here are some WISE Words from Early Christians and later...
A few from a book and the rest can be found at the link I provided!

It is a fact,
brothers and sisters,
that the path of the saints in this life is one full of troubles.
They either endure the pain of longing for that which is to come,
like the one who said,
'Woe is me that I have such a long pilgrimage' (Ps. 120:5, LXX)
or they are distressed by their longing for the salvation of others,
as Paul wrote to the Corinthians,
'I am afraid that when I come to you,
God may humble me and cause me to weep and mourn over many who have sinned and not repented of impurity,
fornication and licentiousness which they have practiced.'
St. Athanasius

Do not be despondent when fighting against the incorporeal enemy,
but even in the midst of your afflictions and oppression praise the Lord, Who has found you worthy to suffer for Him,
by struggling against the subtlety of the serpent,
and to be wounded for Him at every hour; for had you not lived piously, and endeavored to become united to God,
the enemy would not have attacked and tormented you.
St. John of Kronstadt.

For no virtue is perfected without effort, not is it possible for anyone to mount to the stability of mind that he desires without great contrition of heart.
For man is born in trouble .
In order that 'he might attain to the perfect man,
the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ (Eph. 4:190,
he must always be watchful with still greater attentiveness and labor with constant care.'
St. John Cassian, The Institutes

He who chooses to live well for eternity,
will live in discomfort for the present.
He will be subjected to all types of troubles and burdens as long as he is on earth,
so that in the end he will have divine and heavenly consolation.
On the other hand,
he who chooses to live well for the present will fare badly in eternity. Lactantius (260-330 AD) Institutes bk. 7, chap. 5)
Gleanings from Orthodox Holy Fathers~

One other thing...
Why are we told that when those that have received the MARK and WORSHIPPED the Antichrist will curse and scream at God?
Precisely because they wont know the meaning of true SUFFERING and STRUGGLES of this earthly life.
Instead of praying for forgiveness, they will CURSE God who has given man many opportunities to repent!
But alas, man will have a last go at God...Right before the End of the World and the Antichrist and his followers.
ICXC NIKA
helen