"Where" Does A Black Hole Exist?

I believe the center of all galaxies have a black hole. They do have mass you just can't see it. The black holes have so much gravity that all the matter in the "Milky Way" for example is trapped by it's gravitational pull and slowly getting sucked into it. Some scientists believe once the black holes suck all the stars in that then they will eventually pull themselves together back to it's state before "The Big Bang". And yes it's 1 theory out off many.

Hey

Thx for bringing this up!!

I've been thinking about the same thing since i became partially able to understand the concept of a blackhole. And i kinda agree. But i guess i must be imagening things wrong.

I see a blackhole as a point in space thats holds a extreme "cache" of information and energy. Studies have shown us that the Universe exists out of more then 90% of energy and only a very small amount of mass. So it seems logical to me to conlcude that the highest concentration of anything in a black hole should be energy to....

So i kinda start believing that after the event horizon "matter" is turned into pure energy and distributed on a carrier called space/time that could be used to "power" the forming of new bindings of Quarks to particles all over in a never ending cycle.

But this theory is my own and its based on my own ideas of those holes. I would love to hear what the ATS crowd thinks of my idea...

Grtz

Originally posted by Kaytagg

I sure hope so.

I also wonder if we'll ever invent a "black hole machine," wherein we can create black holes on demand. If you could make such a machine "black hole" (used as a verb

) a relatively large amount of matter, it might be possible to extinguish stars. Imagine that as a weapon: "Mess with us, and we'll blow out the sun."

That would be the ultimate weapon.

I agree - in fact it might be a weapon of Mutually Assured Destruction that could keep an unruly race of A.I. in check.

(assuming we set up the weapon near our own Sun and Jupiter - to trigger instantaneously on command by Mankind's order using quantum communication)

While I'm not trying to get into the logic/ethics of using such a MAD weapon I was curious if anyone here would know how long it would take (if we could turn the sun instantaneously into a black hole) for that black hole to absorb the entire galaxy.

Because if the A.I. could make it out past Pluto it wouldn't really work out.

Anyone here know the calculation for this?

Originally posted by Kaytagg
... It would, for all intents and purposes, cease to exist at any place in the universe. Explain this.

You're right about the volume of a black hole being "zero", but according to Stephen Hawking, black holes eventually evaporate their mass back into the universe (called "Hawking Radiation"). Hawking radiation is energy, however energy could be equated to mass, as per Einstein's famous equation e=mc^2.

Of course, it would take trillions of years for a large black hole to evaporate away.

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If objects with mass accelerate to the speed of light [c] then from the above equations, mass = 1/0 which when viewed on a hyperbola curve means mass becomes infinite:

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I suppose the whole point to the OP question, and referring to the NASA article someone posted, is that the human mind isn't programmed to understand terms such as infinity and extra-dimensional space; they exist only in the realms of mathematics.

Perhaps the event horizon is measurable but the singularity will always be infinite by the very definition of the math involved. Trying to understand the vastness of infinity is best left to quantum computers and/or aliens

...spacetime singularity is a location where the quantities which are used to measure the gravitational field become infinite in a way that does not depend on the coordinate system. These quantities are the scalar invariant curvatures of spacetime, some of which are a measure of the density of matter.

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I just wanted to expand on my previous post, as the OP is an interesting question, regarding d=m/v.

By dividing any number by zero, then you are defining infinity, but where does the [one] go to? It must still have some relevance by it's very creation and existence (in the maths or in reality).

Does infinity gobble up everything?

This is why particle accelerators can only ever achieve speeds of 0.99c as they would never be able to attain full speed of light because they are masses propelled with pulses of external EM energy using powerful magnets. When you can transmute mass into massless energy then you will transcend all known physics and perhaps that is the next leap of grand unification theory.

reply to post by PrisonerOfSociety


1 isnt regarded as a true number its the singularity..if i remember correctly.

[edit on 31-7-2009 by VitalOverdose]

It takes an escape velocity of 25000 mph to escape the gravitational pull of the earth.

The event horizon is the point at which the escape velocity required to break free of the gravitational pull of the black hole exceedes the speed of light.

I have a different idea but I am a beginner scientist. I believe that a singularity is neither infinite in mass or density. I think that the singularity is actually there but one cannot see it. The presence of it creates some measurable properties in the surrounding matter. I believe that the density is perfect not infinite. In other words there is absolutely no space between the subatomic particles; it is, as I define it, absolute matter.

Super massive singularities do take up some measurable space especially in the galaxy M87. The monsterous jet of M87's singularity can be viewed as possible proof that the matter is actually there.

Just because our primitive technology cannot measure very accurately the dimensions of a singularity doesn't mean the mass is gone. It means the space surrounding it, has collapsed around it. My ideas are a little different than Einstein's theory, but let me finish some more physics and chemistry classes and I will define my theory better. For now I am a sophmore working on a doctorate.

Originally posted by Angel One
I have a different idea but I am a beginner scientist. I believe that a singularity is neither infinite in mass or density. I think that the singularity is actually there but one cannot see it.

You wouldnt be able to see it because no light can escape.

Just because our primitive technology cannot measure very accurately the dimensions of a singularity doesn't mean the mass is gone. It means the space surrounding it, has collapsed around it.

Sounds intresting

I think one way you can tell the matter inside a blackhole has not vanished it that outside of the event horizon it has the same gravitational pull as any other object of its size.

Originally posted by Kaytagg
Simple question:

The singularity of a black hole is often described as being infinitely dense (density = mass/volume). This is not because the mass is infinite. The mass no where close to infinite, and it can be known pre and post formation of a black hole. That can only mean that the volume is 0 (which technically makes the density undefined).

So if the density is infinite, because the volume is 0, WHERE is the black hole, exactly? If it's taking up zero volume in space, you can't point to any location and say "It's here," because it's not. It's nowhere. Yet it's there.

Explain.

In Between " Here" and " There" ............Although I don't think their are words yet for humans to explain all that......

I believe that the volume is infinitely small, and since the mass is defined, density is a limit approaching infinity.

www.youtube.com...

If you want to watch a couple hours, this guy has a fascinating lecture on black holes and how ETs used them as gateways.

Originally posted by VitalOverdose
It takes an escape velocity of 25000 mph to escape the gravitational pull of the earth.

The event horizon is the point at which the escape velocity required to break free of the gravitational pull of the black hole exceedes the speed of light.

This brings up an interesting point when taken into consideration with Hawkings Radiation. IF matter/energy escapes a black hole, THEN said matter/energy is surpassing the speed of light. Whoa...

reply to post by Angel One


I believe you are on track - "a black hole is a tear in space-time because inside that event horizon lies a singularity - a point of infinite density where the curvature of space-time becomes infinite. This happens because if a great enough mass is confined in a small enough space nothing can get out, not even light. Once a collapsing mass passes this point, there is nothing that we know of that could stop it from continuing this collapse forever, leading to that point of infinite density. General relativity relates gravity to the curvature of space-time. Without going through all the relevant equations (and me brushing up on my mathematics for it) the equations show that at this point the curvature would be infinite. That can be seen as a hole in space-time."

forums.randi.org...

Having been confused by the "rip in the fabric of space time" phrase - I appreciated the infinite curvature a bit more... Though this quote appears to have neglected Hawking Radiation...

Once again,

a black hole has a definable size and mass. IT IS THERE

It is a solid object that exists in real time and real space.
It is only a "hole" as far as the gravitational mathematics are concerned.
as they take in matter, t is broken into the smallest possible pieces of matter and deposited on the surface, this will happen until the the force of gravity overcomes the strong nuclear force and it implodes in a violent fashion and releases its energy, this might be what causes certain types of GRB's.

I hate the term singularity because it is really a misnomer, meant only for those familiar with the garvitational mathematics, and leads people to believe balck holes are something they are not.

Another way to explain a blackhole is to use this analogy imagine a large body of water and think of that as space in which everthing movews through. Now put some matter in there lets put in some ice to represent matter atoms etc.. now the water and ice are the same thing but have different energy. Now apply that thinking to space and matter. Now to think of a black hole imagine a whirlpool. the larger part of the whirlpool is the out edeges of the black hole sucking everything in. Now the funnel part at the end is where the singularity occurs. When ice falls down this funnel the friction will melt the ice back into water. The same is happening with the black hole its converting matter back into energy some escapes as gamma rays but the rest is converted back into a neutral state of energy where it seems to dissappear. Using this analogy u can see why black holes can evaporate in nothing according to stephen hawking..

Originally posted by loner007
Easily done... hold up a sheet of paper and make a hole. Now ask your self does that hole have mass? Does it have a location on the sheet?
Just because the "Black Hole" seems to be an entity outside of our universe the way to a black hole can still be defined by its effects on it surroundings.

BAM! roasted u lame