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"Where" Does A Black Hole Exist?

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posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 12:49 PM
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Simple question:

The singularity of a black hole is often described as being infinitely dense (density = mass/volume). This is not because the mass is infinite. The mass no where close to infinite, and it can be known pre and post formation of a black hole. That can only mean that the volume is 0 (which technically makes the density undefined).

So if the density is infinite, because the volume is 0, WHERE is the black hole, exactly? If it's taking up zero volume in space, you can't point to any location and say "It's here," because it's not. It's nowhere. Yet it's there.

Explain.




posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 01:01 PM
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Easily done... hold up a sheet of paper and make a hole. Now ask your self does that hole have mass? Does it have a location on the sheet?
Just because the "Black Hole" seems to be an entity outside of our universe the way to a black hole can still be defined by its effects on it surroundings.



posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 01:08 PM
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reply to post by Kaytagg
 


S & F

I've pondered the same thing for a long time. And concerning the view that its just like a hole in paper, not quite. The hole in paper lacks volume AND mass. The theoretical Black hole takes up no space (you need to occupy a volume to take up space) yet has a gravitational pull. Its not a hole in matter, its a hypercondensed bunch of matter in the middle of nothingness (theoretically). Now saying it has characteristics outside our universe and that we can only observe its effects in our physical universe has some logic to it but thats just an add-on to the theory of black holes. I say the jury is still out on whether or not they exist.



posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 01:10 PM
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reply to post by loner007
 


Black holes do have mass, though. This is known, and can be measured by the diameter of the event horizon. If you add more mass, the event horizon gets bigger.

But the singularity is thought to be infinitely dense. Not because the mass, but because of the volume.

So if the volume is infinitely small, WHERE is its location? It doesn't "exist" anywhere, yet it's there.



posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 01:12 PM
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There are at least two different ways to describe how big something is. We can say how much mass it has, or we can say how much space it takes up. Let's talk first about the masses of black holes.

There is no limit in principle to how much or how little mass a black hole can have. Any amount of mass at all can in principle be made to form a black hole if you compress it to a high enough density. We suspect that most of the black holes that are actually out there were produced in the deaths of massive stars, and so we expect those black holes to weigh about as much as a massive star. A typical mass for such a stellar black hole would be about 10 times the mass of the Sun, or about 10^[31] kilograms. (Here I'm using scientific notation: 10^[31] means a 1 with 31 zeroes after it, or 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.) Astronomers also suspect that many galaxies harbor extremely massive black holes at their centers. These are thought to weigh about a million times as much as the Sun, or 10^[36] kilograms.

The more massive a black hole is, the more space it takes up. In fact, the Schwarzschild radius (which means the radius of the horizon) and the mass are directly proportional to one another: if one black hole weighs ten times as much as another, its radius is ten times as large. A black hole with a mass equal to that of the Sun would have a radius of 3 kilometers. So a typical 10-solar-mass black hole would have a radius of 30 kilometers, and a million-solar-mass black hole at the center of a galaxy would have a radius of 3 million kilometers. Three million kilometers may sound like a lot, but it's actually not so big by astronomical standards. The Sun, for example, has a radius of about 700,000 kilometers, and so that supermassive black hole has a radius only about four times bigger than the Sun.

source


[edit on 30-7-2009 by VitalOverdose]



posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 01:20 PM
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reply to post by VitalOverdose
 


That is somewhat helpful, but the event horizon is not the singularity. It is simply where the gravity becomes more powerful than the electromagnetic force, and thus where light can no longer escape.

In other words, the event horizon is where the black hole becomes black. It's not the center of the black hole, just the point of no return.



posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 01:23 PM
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Apparently you can find a black hole in the federal budget.

IRM :shk:



posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 01:25 PM
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reply to post by Kaytagg
 


The event horizon is the point of no return. If you imagine swimming in a lake with a dam that has water draining out of it. You would be able to swim about most of the lake without any problem. But if you got to close to the point where the water is flowing out of the dam you would get sucked in. The event horizon is the point where the flow of the water becomes to strong for you to swim against it.



posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 01:27 PM
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reply to post by VitalOverdose
 


In the dam analogy, the water would not be coming out of the dam. It would simply disappear as it enters into the powerful current that drains into the dam. But it would never come out the other side. It would, for all intents and purposes, cease to exist at any place in the universe. Explain this.

Edit to correct spelling

[edit on 30-7-2009 by Kaytagg]



posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 01:41 PM
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It was just an example to explain what an event horizon is..

Light has no mass so gravity should not be able to affect it in any way. But the gravity field created by a black hole is so massive that it bends space. Light can only follow the fabric of space so has no choice but to follow the bent space to the center of the black hole.



[edit on 30-7-2009 by VitalOverdose]



posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 01:53 PM
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Hi, Kaytagg.


Originally posted by Kaytagg
. . .cease to exist at any place in the universe. . .

WRONG. Black holes HAVE a size !

RE-read CAREFULY the long quote of Vitaloverdose ! ! up there.

And by the way, what is your **source** of what you say in your first post ??

EDIT to say :
Black holes HAVE a size. Why ?
Because the-ball-of-VERY-dense-matter in the center of our black hole
varies too. The radius of the-point-of-no-return always being the same,
the SURFACE of the dense-matter-ball has to be at different distances from
the center of the system. . .

Blue skies.


[edit on 2009/7/30 by C-JEAN]



posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 02:00 PM
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reply to post by VitalOverdose
 


That's not entirely true. Light has relativistic mass, which is the same mass that increases as your speed increases.

If light moves towards a gravitational field, the frequency increases. If it moves away from a gravitational field, the frequency decreases.

So gravity definitely has an affect on light.

reply to post by C-JEAN
 


I already addressed this:
That is somewhat helpful, but the event horizon is not the singularity. It is simply where the gravity becomes more powerful than the electromagnetic force, and thus where light can no longer escape.

In other words, the event horizon is where the black hole becomes black. It's not the center of the black hole, just the point of no return.


The event horizon does not measure the size of the black hole, but it does indicate the mass. The size of the singularity is zero. The size of the event horizon depends on the mass.

[edit on 30-7-2009 by Kaytagg]



posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 02:08 PM
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I did a google search and this came up (from nasa):


The Question
(Submitted September 12, 2001)

At the center of a black hole the singularity point has zero volume and infinite density. I know that the singularity is a point in space rather than an object with specific dimensions, but how is it possible for something to have zero volume and infinite density?

The Answer
This is indeed difficult to grasp. Actually at the center of a black hole spacetime has infinite curvature and matter is crushed to infinite density under the pull of infinite gravity. At a singularity, space and time cease to exist as we know them. The laws of physics as we know them break down at a singularity, so it's not really possible to envision something with infinite density and zero volume. You might check out the web site for further information on black holes and singularities:
antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov...

Hope this helps,
Georgia & Koji
For "Ask an Astrophysicist"

imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov...

So the answer, I guess, is that nobody knows where the mass inside a black hole exists, because the question doesn't make sense in the framework of a black hole. I still think it's worth pondering, though. But question answered, I guess.



posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 02:11 PM
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reply to post by Kaytagg
 

Hi again Kaytagg.

1- I repeat: RE-read ***CAREFULY*** Vitaloverdose's quotes.

2- ***WHO*** said that a black hole is zero dimension ????

3- We can NOT see in the hole. Whow can one say it's dimension ???

4- RE-read my first message, the EDIT worked this time.
. . .and there is a question in it. . .before the EDIT. . . so 5-

5- You did not show us YOUR source/link(s). . . B-)

Blue skies.



posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 02:12 PM
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Not sure if I'm understanding the question right but I think it's safe to say the black hole is directly in the centre of the event horizon and as black holes grow I think it's safe to assume the mass doesn't just vanish.

A little off topic but I've been thinking a lot about black holes and what actually happens inside them lately the truth is we will never know for sure as it's impossible to look under the event horizon. I think of them as a whirlpool with the way they supposedly warp space/time but I'm unsure if anything could ever reach the actual singularity.

About the light having mass I'm not that sure on that I think the actual warping of space may be enough to capture the light forever but then that's my own thoughts just and again I'm thinking whirlpool possibly incorrectly.

[edit on 30-7-2009 by Teknikal]



posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 02:15 PM
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reply to post by C-JEAN
 


Can you point out what you think I'm missing in his post?

You can read a source in my above post, strait from NASA. Or you can do some research on black holes on your own, but the NASA source should be sufficient to prove to you that the singularity of a black hole is theorized to be infinitely dense (which is common knowledge).

We don't know this for sure, for obvious and previously stated reasons. Scientists think this is true because that's what the mathematics of well understood and tested physics (relativity) predict.



posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 02:19 PM
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Since we can't directly observe a black hole, and the fact it has "0 volume", a black hole isn't really "anywhere" because it doesn't exist in our 3-dimensional space. It has essentially ripped a hole in the fabric of space time and, well, has left our universe.

The interesting part is that it's almost like the "designer" of the universe made it impossible to see what it looks like outside of our universe by covering the black hole with the "event horizon".

However, I'm sure us hacker-humans will figure out a loophole in the rules of the universe so that we can someday take a peek.



posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 02:23 PM
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Originally posted by harrytuttle
I'm sure us hacker-humans will figure out a loophole in the rules of the universe so that we can someday take a peek.


I sure hope so.

I also wonder if we'll ever invent a "black hole machine," wherein we can create black holes on demand. If you could make such a machine "black hole" (used as a verb
) a relatively large amount of matter, it might be possible to extinguish stars. Imagine that as a weapon: "Mess with us, and we'll blow out the sun."

That would be the ultimate weapon.



posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 02:53 PM
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Originally posted by Kaytagg
Can you point out what you think I'm missing in his post?


Hi again, Kaytagg.

You are right. I am a little too vague. . . B-)
My point is that the "radius" discussion tells it all.

1- The radius between the "surface" of the inside "DENSE ball" and
the horizon of whole, is a constant.

2- The horizon varies in size, as ...overdose's quote says.
+-10 Km, +-30 Km ?? +-10 miles, +-100 miles. . .etc. . .

3- So, if the horizon varies in size(s), then
there is a ball with a "surface", inside, that varies too. . .

Blue skies.



posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 03:07 PM
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Originally posted by C-JEAN

Originally posted by Kaytagg
Can you point out what you think I'm missing in his post?


Hi again, Kaytagg.

You are right. I am a little too vague. . . B-)
My point is that the "radius" discussion tells it all.

1- The radius between the "surface" of the inside "DENSE ball" and
the horizon of whole, is a constant.

2- The horizon varies in size, as ...overdose's quote says.
+-10 Km, +-30 Km ?? +-10 miles, +-100 miles. . .etc. . .

3- So, if the horizon varies in size(s), then
there is a ball with a "surface", inside, that varies too. . .

Blue skies.


Nobody knows what is inside a black hole, but the math doesn't say it's a ball. Far from a ball, it has zero volume. When is the last time you saw a ball with zero volume?

The diameter of the event horizon is determined by the mass.

The event horizon is simply where light can no longer escape. It has nothing to do with the volume of the inside of the black hole.


A good analogy is to take a satellite in space, with a constant speed, and flying it past the earth at an arbitrary distance from the earth. If you fly it far enough away from the earth, lets say 2000 miles above the surface, the speed and distance may be sufficient to stop it from achieving orbit. If you lower that distance, lets say 1000 miles, the object becomes "trapped" in orbit. But 1000 miles is hardly where the surface of the earth begins, it's just where gravity is too strong for the satellite to break free.

Light works the same way with a black hole, except light happens to have a constant speed, unlike matter floating in space.

So the event horizon is simply where light can't break free from "orbit" around the black hole. But it has nothing to do with where the black hole's "surface" is. The odd thing is that black holes are theorized to have no surface. They have zero volume. This is the crux of the question.



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