Failures have value in that they can be used as bad examples.

The point I keep trying to make is to not build anything using failure as a model. The only thing showing proof of failure does is prove that things fail and in no way helps the problem we are currently in. It's as though people want the system to fail, and by system I mean America because that is the direction we all are headed.

Everyone here can waste all of their time debating over an endless amount of failed examples while everything falls apart. I strongly urge that everyone think about success and bring up examples of systems that do work. If we built a system using success as a model than we create a chance to become successful. This thread seems to be showing how good people are at being failures.

Originally posted by Devino
Failures have value in that they can be used as bad examples.

The point I keep trying to make is to not build anything using failure as a model. The only thing showing proof of failure does is prove that things fail and in no way helps the problem we are currently in. It's as though people want the system to fail, and by system I mean America because that is the direction we all are headed.

Everyone here can waste all of their time debating over an endless amount of failed examples while everything falls apart. I strongly urge that everyone think about success and bring up examples of systems that do work. If we built a system using success as a model than we create a chance to become successful. This thread seems to be showing how good people are at being failures.

I agree completely.

I strongly urge you to show us a successful government run model we can compare Obama care to.

Becasue its a free chioce yuor allwoed to make. This is america, land of the free ya know..well was..
At my retail job, a friend who invests in stocks opposes this obama plan, cause it means they wil be removing $30 more to cover this new health plan. And..someone else here had osted a thread about the fine print of whats in the package deal..and basically i loks like, in fine print of course..governemnt is gunna give you what they feel yuo need, nothing less or more. And, they seem to favor, if your really sick about o craok, their attitude seems to favor..hurry upn croak. thats why this lpan sucks.

Everyone knows the government lies and nuetralizes people, and murders...and some feel comfortable now thier gunna be administering our neede meds?? NO WAY MAN@ this is almost just like Kevorkian (doctor of death) as yuor doc now, and is deciding what meds yuo gunna be on! as well as the dosage

So many of you are fear mongers, I can't believe it! For many years I went without health insurance, sick or well, and missed a lot of work because I couldn't afford to pay cash for medical attention, even tho I was working at the same job for many years. I'd have GLADLY paid $100 or $200 or even $300 a month to have been able to go see a doctor when I really needed to, and have had some help paying for prescriptions I could never afford.

Now I pay $1500/month with a very large deductible... and we're STILL paying over $6,000/year for out-of-pocket expenses, over and above the monthly premium and deductible. I'd GLADLY be willing to accept single-payer, government-backed healthcare; it surely couldn't be any WORSE... or any less expensive than what we're paying for now. I have three specialists, and NONE of them can agree, EVER, or anything! Under a government sponsored plan, I don't think I'd have the doctors squabbling amongst themselves, while I sit and wait 90 days for one of them to make a decision the OTHERS can agree with...

Healthcare, when provided to all Americans, won't be perfect, but that's why it's called "The PRACTICE of Medicine," folks. At least all Americans would be able to see a doctor when it's needed, and the cost wouldn't be nearly as much as I pay now.

[edit on 4-8-2009 by CynCritter]

Long time reader, first time poster... that being said, why the hell is it so hard to find the actual thread you want to respond to? This was actually in response to "In his own words" Obama wants to eliminate private health insurance, but since this is the closest I could find, I digress...

I work in health insurance. I would say that "for fear of my job" I won't say which private health insurer but since I can't stomach this nonsesne any longer it's Blue Cross/ Blue Shield of... well, pick a northern state often associated with gardens for reasons passing all understanding.

I understand why the government dipping it's hands into anything privately associated with the populace of this country is a bad thing due to incessant beurocracy and committee upon committee deciding what benefits to include, what to exclude and who should be covered up until what age. I also understand why for-profit health insurance companies are the bane of human existence... I once had to tell a provider that a patient's maternity benefits wouldn't be covered due to her pregnancy being considered... wait for it... a pre existing condition.

Neither one left of it's own accord could be trusted to do the right thing by all taxpayers... but maybe the two in competition could cancel out the other's greedy inadequacy and leave the American public with something resembling parity.

Let the government have it's public option (leave out the national/regional/state co-ops as they're paper tigers), and let big pharma sweat out the details. I hate to say it, but considering the fact that in Switzerland it's illegal for healthcare to be for-profit, this is the only option left to a purely capitalist society. There needs to be some form of nationalized public option in order to keep the greedy, money-hungry profit mongers who run the healthcare industry honest... even if that public option is only somewhat less greedy or beurocracy driven...

There is an option to be considered, either by private health insurance companies or the federal government which I haven't yet heard discussed... maybe it has, so I apologize if this is a re-hash. Captitation. With HMOs and providers, there exist cap lists... for each capitated patient for a given primary care physician, that physician's office recieves somewhere between $25 and $50 monthly... whether or not that patient actually goes to the doctor. Take such funding for rarely seen patients and put it into a public slush fund for your public option. There's at least 70% of the cost right there. Granted, such cap lists prevent providers for charging for certain services but at the same time, regardless of whether the plan is a B&E, HMO open access or PPO, if said provider has a cap list, they get paid for their patients whether they come in or not.

Just a few ideas, but as one who sees how broken the current system is from inside out, if there's nothing done the problem is only going to get worse. And if you truly have a problem with the concept of having some of your tax dollars going to a credible solution that helps level the playing field and keeping corporate insurance ponzi-scheme artists honest, then I feel a great swell of pity for you... especially since I work for these people, would support my tax dollars going to help fund it and as yet, can't even afford health insurance myself...

Originally posted by Legion2112
And if you truly have a problem with the concept of having some of your tax dollars going to a credible solution that helps level the playing field and keeping corporate insurance ponzi-scheme artists honest, then I feel a great swell of pity for you

Here is another concept, spending tax money to improve heath care and education will also improve this nation socially and economically. With an improving economy we all make more money and have a better standard of living so we can afford to pay more taxes. If money is invested wisely in a system thus increasing the overall value it will return 10 fold. I have no problem paying more taxes so long as it's spent wisely.

Originally posted by Devino

Originally posted by Legion2112
And if you truly have a problem with the concept of having some of your tax dollars going to a credible solution that helps level the playing field and keeping corporate insurance ponzi-scheme artists honest, then I feel a great swell of pity for you

Here is another concept, spending tax money to improve heath care and education will also improve this nation socially and economically. With an improving economy we all make more money and have a better standard of living so we can afford to pay more taxes. If money is invested wisely in a system thus increasing the overall value it will return 10 fold. I have no problem paying more taxes so long as it's spent wisely.

What part of the plan, and how is it different from previous attempts by the government, to make you so confident we will see all these wonderful benefits this time around?

In all honesty, I can't think of either entity (federal government or private health insurance companies) coming up with a "plan" that provides all these benefits... the benefits come when you have these two, how shall I say? "Idiot" conglomerates realizing that the only way they can compete with each other successfully is to cut out some of the beurocratic monopolization of their operations to streamline the practical application of their businesses. Case in point: prex. Obamacare wants to eliminate it. Big pharma makes their money off of it. Obamacare eliminates pre existing conditions in order to entice more people to go with a public option. Private health insurance in turn eliminates it in order to compete... or keeps it and raises premiums on existing subscribers, ensuring that they have no choice in the near future but to reduce wait dates, what qualifies as prex or foregoing it altogether to stay in business. I hate to put it like this, but two mentally challenged powermongers competing over the same space invariably creates parity. It's not that the government's plan (of which I've read most but not all) is better, it's that it's another option, period. Believe me, even though nothing has passed by the POTUS' desk with a signature on it, healthcare companies are scared even with the Blue Dogs and Republicans trying everything they can to stop it from going forward. So scared I would bet my miniscule salary on plans already in place to virtually eliminate pre-existing conditions (I know they only occur if you go from a large group policy to an individually funded or small group one, but still), insane in network supplemental deductibles or out-of-network deductibles as well as what makes basic and essential so very basic and essential that despite the monthly $400+ premiums they cover virtually nothing for anyone with a family. My opinion, but two morons figuring out how to competitively sell lemonade will at least get rid of the arsenic in it.

Originally posted by Legion2112
In all honesty, I can't think of either entity (federal government or private health insurance companies) coming up with a "plan" that provides all these benefits... the benefits come when you have these two, how shall I say? "Idiot" conglomerates realizing that the only way they can compete with each other successfully is to cut out some of the beurocratic monopolization of their operations to streamline the practical application of their businesses. Case in point: prex. Obamacare wants to eliminate it. Big pharma makes their money off of it. Obamacare eliminates pre existing conditions in order to entice more people to go with a public option. Private health insurance in turn eliminates it in order to compete... or keeps it and raises premiums on existing subscribers, ensuring that they have no choice in the near future but to reduce wait dates, what qualifies as prex or foregoing it altogether to stay in business. I hate to put it like this, but two mentally challenged powermongers competing over the same space invariably creates parity. It's not that the government's plan (of which I've read most but not all) is better, it's that it's another option, period. Believe me, even though nothing has passed by the POTUS' desk with a signature on it, healthcare companies are scared even with the Blue Dogs and Republicans trying everything they can to stop it from going forward. So scared I would bet my miniscule salary on plans already in place to virtually eliminate pre-existing conditions (I know they only occur if you go from a large group policy to an individually funded or small group one, but still), insane in network supplemental deductibles or out-of-network deductibles as well as what makes basic and essential so very basic and essential that despite the monthly $400+ premiums they cover virtually nothing for anyone with a family. My opinion, but two morons figuring out how to competitively sell lemonade will at least get rid of the arsenic in it.

I agree, but Obama has clearly said his plan will eventually eliminate private health insurance. If it was put in place to provide those without insurance an alternative to private health insurance I would be more open to consider it.

Also his plan does not address health insurance reform or torte reform, which in my opinion are the 2 main factors causing increases in health care costs.

just to answer the topic ,

the belif that their current situvation is better
the belif that they will get less then what they now spend on it
the belif that tax money is to souly be spent on the military
the belif that medical people take an oath and not live up to it
the belif that only tax paying people should have acces to health care even thou the patien is a citizens.
the belif that healthcare is a political agenda

its your money , your health , your goverment , dont be a jackass