Why is 'everyone' on this board so against an expansion of Public Health Care in the U.S?

Originally posted by Animal
to them the public option is an affront to their belief system.

As opposed to the utter fantasy your sort relies on, to make society changing decisions.

Option, eh?

What part of this sounds like an "option" to you?:


Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into public option plan. NO CHOICE.

15 (4) AUTOENROLLMENT OF EMPLOYEES.—The
16 employer provides for autoenrollment of the em
17 ployee in accordance with subsection (c).


Read the bill, why dont you?

H. R. 3200

It's not like you are a Democrat Congressman, or anything... you can feel free to peruse it, since you have no vote.

Remember when lefties would just go on and on about how important "choice" is?

Ah, the good ol' days...

One of the big problems with today’s health care is that it is controlled by the insurance agencies, and capitalism isn't allowed. In a perfect world you would be able to shop around for the best doctor at the best price, but that is not the case.

One needs to ask why was my son’s emergency room visit that consisted of one hour wait, 30mins filling out insurance papers, five hours more wait time, 20 mins wait in examination room, five mins with the doctor who looked at a cut on my kids chin cleaned it with a swab and applied some glue…then out the door had a bill of 1000 dollars?

My insurance company paid it, but if I didn’t have insurance the bill would still be 1000 dollars. This is just crazy and why our healthcare is so out of reach for all without insurance. That same treatment in many other countries might be 50 bucks. There are health service centers opening round America outside the insurance umbrella and when you walk in they have a menu like ordering book to pick and choose the treatment you need, and that same 1000 dollar emergency room would be well under 100 dollars there.

So now putting this all in the hands of the Government, health care will not be less costly or more efficient for only capitalism would create that. So we will waste even more tax dollars and the middle class will lose what little choice they have, and add that my taxes will go up and I already pay too much.

reply to post by Wildbob77


I'm pretty sure that about 15 to 20 million of those people are illegal aliens!
My friend was in Europe recently and hurt her knee. They wanted cash up front before seeing her.
Why should Citizens pay for illegals healthcare?
This is One of the Bull sh!t reasons many are against it.

Originally posted by Amagnon
1) They can decide if your treatment is simply too expensive - so fail to mention it as an option, and you die

Yep, that costly MRI will not be done and the cat scan will not pick up the tumor in time and you die...

2) Those WITHOUT health care are a smaller fraction than those with it - but they are going to carte blanche kick everyone off what they have now, and give them a crapped down version

Companies will drop their healthcare to save money and we will all have this new verson, and so we will need to pay even more money out of our pockets for a better plan while paying more taxes to support this plan that we will not want to use anyways.

4) The nation can't afford the horrific cost

Since the horrendous cost for treatment will still be the same there isn’t enough paper to print enough money to pay for it. They need to take it out of the hands of the insurance companies and government and allow capitalism to control the cost. Then a person could actually afford a good chunk of the cost with just a little help to defray a part of it.

Last but not least - only those SPECIAL friends of the government will be given the contracts to provide medical care - having a monopoly, they don't have to compete against anyone - so they can and will cut costs as much possible - you can't go anywhere else, so service can be as #ty as they like - you still have to keep coming back, you have no choice.

If they deem that a 5 year wiating list is appropriate for chemo therapy - then too bad for you - it also saves them a lot of money on expensive therapy, because all the people who need it die before they have to supply it.

It actually works somewhat in a smaller population, but even Canada has big issues. Those that can afford it get health care in America, because treatment time is in months (many sometimes) not days or weeks. In America, with this socialized plan, you will get in line and wait and wait and wait as the line slowly moves forward due to people die off and a few get treated.



[edit on 30-7-2009 by Xtrozero]

I am not against Public Health Care.

I laugh really hard at the thought of our entire currency being backed by....absolutely NOTHING! PRINT MORE MONEY!

We no longer back our currency with Gold or Silver so what determines the value of a piece of paper? NOTHING! Print MORE! How do you deflate the value of zero?

I LOVE to see people get very worked up about the awesome "Freedom" of "Choice" between a two party system.

I ignore about 95% of what goes on in politics. It is such a Joke and I find it amazing that so many people take such an active interest in what goes on in our "Government".

Pretty much the ONLY thing that concerns me about our "Government" is the 2nd Amendment. As long as I possess firearms nothing else matters.

reply to post by Peruvianmonk

Very good topic and although I am not part of the "Everyone" crowd and therefore think for myself I have a few comments to make.

In my opinion the three most important things for a strong and healthy society are Education, Health care and Retirement security. How much money it will cost is totally irrelevant.

When America's financial institutions were failing, the amount of money given to these failing banks could have paid for 20 years of public health care for everyone in the US. Think about how much is still being spent on a war that was an admitted mistake of intelligence...money is not what's holding us back.

More importantly, money invested in education and health care for local communities will returned 10 fold. By spending billions or even trillions to educate the public and make sure they are healthy creates an intelligent healthy working class that has the ability to pay everything back with interest. Retirement is a security that allows people to focus on what's important, family and community. A healthy and intelligent working middle class is the foundation of a strong society and should be the focus of Homeland Security!

On the other hand by reducing the amount of money spent on education will cause schools to close across the country due to lack of funds and hinder the ability of people to attend college. Make health care a expensive luxury and retirement available only for the wealthy few and society degrades into a two class system of the rich and poor. The majority of the people consisting of the poor class and an ever increasing gap between the two.

'Staussian' philosophy considers the former social example with a large working middle class of intelligent people an unstable or insecure economy. So the question is, what is the agenda of this kind of philosophy?

We spoke about this on the latest Above Politics Show which you can listen to Here - AP 70

Hear what Homer and Martin have to say about this expansion and it could be a cunning plan as Martin suggests.

Great to see so many interesting and inciteful comments, and angry ones. It has taught me alot about the bill and the way people think on this board

I knew i would offend some people, and some of my comments were aimed at promoting a response to find out the true feelings of people about the bill. I am thankful for the NHS but at the same time wish it could be better. I personally hope all Americans will end up with a good standard of healthcare as a result of this bill and further measures in the future.

reply to post by Peruvianmonk


Whats not to love?





Lets have a look again at how wonderful this bill is, shall we?:

Pg 22 of the HC Bill mandates the Government will audit books of all employers that self insure.
Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill — a Government committee (good luck with that!) will decide what treatments/benefits a person may receive.
Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill — YOUR HEALTHCARE WILL BE RATIONED!
Pg 42 of HC Bill — The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your HC Benefits for you.
PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill — HC will be provided to ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise.
Pg 58 HC Bill — Government will have real-time access to individual's finances and a National ID Healthcard will be issued!
Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Government will have direct access to your bank accts for election funds transfer.
PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in Unions & community organizations (read: ACORN).
Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Government will create an HC Exchange to bring private HC plans under Government control.
PG 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill — Government mandates linguistic appropriate services. Example — Translation for illegal aliens.
Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Government will use groups, i.e. ACORN & Americorps, to sign up individuals for Government HC plan.
PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill — Specifics of Benefit Levels for Plans. AARP members — your Health care WILL be rationed.
PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill — Medicaid Eligible Individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. No choice.
pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue Government on price fixing. No "judicial review" against Government Monopoly.
pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill — Doctors/ AMA — The Government will tell YOU what you can earn.
Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into public option plan. NO CHOICE.
Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay for HC for part time employees AND their families.
Pg 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes. (Americans will pay.)
Pg 195 HC Bill -officers & employees of HC Admin (the GOVERNMENT) will have access to ALL Americans' finances and personal records.
PG 203 Line 14-15 HC — "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax" Yes, it says that.
Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill Government will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor affected.
Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill — Doctors — doesn't matter what specialty — will all be paid the same.
PG 253 Line 10-18 Government sets value of Doctor's time, professional judgment, etc. Literally, value of humans.
PG 265 Sec 1131 Government mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries.
Pg 317 L 13-20 OMG!! PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Government tells Doctors what/how much they can own.
Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion — Government will mandate hospitals cannot expand.
Pg 354 Sec 1177 — Government will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs people!
PG 425 Lines 4-12 Government mandates Advance Care Planning Consultations. Think Senior Citizens end of life prodding.
PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Government provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in how to die.
PG 427 Lines 15-24 Government mandates program for orders for end of life. The Government has a say in how your life ends.
PG 429 Lines 10-12 "advanced care consultation" may include an ORDER for end of life plans. AN ORDER from the Government to end a life!
Page 472 Lines 14-17 PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORGANIZATION. 1 monthly payment to a community-based organization. (Like ACORN?)

This bill would drive unemployment, taxes, and the deficit through the stratosphere. It would turn hospitals into the DMV, dramatically reduce our access to healthcare, let bureaucratic slime decide when it's time for us to die, and guarantee that no one in his right mind goes to medical school.

As for the damage this would do to individual liberty — let's just say that any doubts about the Messiah being a socialist have been put to rest.


Look Here to See What’s in the Health Care Bill: CHILLING!

reply to post by Jenna


you still get to make choices and the government is not the pure evil you make it out to be. sorry no matter how much you all FREAK will not make it true.

Originally posted by DohBama

Originally posted by Animal
to them the public option is an affront to their belief system.

As opposed to the utter fantasy your sort relies on, to make society changing decisions.

Option, eh?

What part of this sounds like an "option" to you?:


Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into public option plan. NO CHOICE.

15 (4) AUTOENROLLMENT OF EMPLOYEES.—The
16 employer provides for autoenrollment of the em
17 ployee in accordance with subsection (c).

where does this is there is no choice and MANDATORY? individuals still have the RIGHT to choose their provider. if you do not like the public option you do not have to use it. PERIOD. so if your employer is required to offer you the public option but you dont want it, you dont have to take it.

this type of baseless and fabricated spin is exactly what i am talking about. the right-wing libertarians are irrelevant fringe players with no clout because of the massive use of illogic and dogmatic reflex them employ in everything they pursue.

Read the bill, why dont you?

i have read quite a bit of it and apparently less selectively than you.

It's not like you are a Democrat Congressman, or anything... you can feel free to peruse it, since you have no vote.

Remember when lefties would just go on and on about how important "choice" is?

Ah, the good ol' days...

choice is important that is why it is part of this health care bill. ignore that all you want it wont go away.

Originally posted by Animal

you still get to make choices and the government is not the pure evil you make it out to be. sorry no matter how much you all FREAK will not make it true.

The experiences I've already had with government run healthcare tells me that I don't get to make choices that I should be able to make about my own care. Sorry, no matter how much you try to say otherwise will not make it true.

Originally posted by Wildbob77
In my state, emergency rooms can't turn you away. If your issue is not life threatening, you may have to wait a long long time, but you eventually will be seen.

The same is true for my state. HOWEVER, unless you make $10,830 per year or less (for a single person) you will not receive treatment for free. Discounts for people without insurance are based on a sliding scale related to yearly income which is taken from the federal poverty guidelines. There is only one hospital here where I live and they work with no charities to help out those in need. If you don't cough up the ridiculous amount they feel you owe, your account will be turned over to collections, a negative mark will be placed on your credit score, you will be taken to court and your wages will be garnished.

While I do support and want health care reform, I do not support the bill in Congress because in my opinion it's a joke. The only thing I foresee coming from this bill is a huge hand out to a group of people that rubs elbows with politicians. Some one will benefit but it won't be the American people.

[edit on 7/30/2009 by MMP]

Originally posted by Jenna

Originally posted by Animal

you still get to make choices and the government is not the pure evil you make it out to be. sorry no matter how much you all FREAK will not make it true.

The experiences I've already had with government run healthcare tells me that I don't get to make choices that I should be able to make about my own care. Sorry, no matter how much you try to say otherwise will not make it true.

perhaps you could elaborate?

besides, the notion that the public option is going to equal government run health care is a FABRICATION.

first and foremost, if you do not want to participate in the PUBLIC OPTION you do not have to PERIOD

secondly if you do participate in the public option it in no way means that the government is going to be dictating your care any more than the insurance companies do now. it is that simple.

yet the right-wing libertarian fringe continues to buy into the false hoods spread by the medical industrial complex and its supporting political shills.

I'll tell you why I'm against our sham government getting involved with a news article that I posted in the Breaking Political News board:
Military Health System was unethical in awarding contract
This is how they handle things, with dirty contracts for money and total control, no thanks, if there needs to be a reform I want it to come from our PEOPLE not our Elite over lords.

[edit on 30-7-2009 by theuhstuf]

There is very little evidence that the American beaurocrats can run anything. I would not trust them to run a lemonade stand. Visit the DMV or a social security office before you put life and death power in the hands of beaurocrats.

Originally posted by Animal
first and foremost, if you do not want to participate in the PUBLIC OPTION you do not have to PERIOD

Woo-hoo. I love paying for crap I'm not using!!!

It's like I bought an Xbox so now I have to buy everyone on my block Playstations.

Ok our Constitution does not give our health needs into the hands of the feds, which means it is for the states or the people.
We do not have health care, we have disease control.
Most Dr.s today work for the benefits they can get from the drug companies.

I want the right to choose alternative health care, or Healing. But that will go away.
We are also against this supposed health reform, because of what it says that the media will not tell us, just a few points:

Take a look at what actually is in the Health Care bill. Obama makes disingenuous comments like “You’ll still keep your doctor” or “You’ll keep your existing health care.” He is either lying to us or he has no idea what is in it. Take a peek at the full report, or look at some of the highlights here:

Pg 22 of the HC Bill mandates the Government will audit books of all employers that self insure. Can you imagine what that will do to small businesses? Every one will abandon “self insurance” and go on Government insurance. So when Obama says that there will still be private health care, it’s simply a lie: this mandate will force employers to abandon their private plans.

Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill – a Government committee (good luck with that!) will decide what treatments/benefits a person may receive.

Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE WILL BE RATIONED! (We all knew this, because health care is rationed in Canada and Britain, but Obama kept saying it would not be).

Pg 42 of HC Bill – The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your HC Benefits for you. You will have no choice!

PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill - HC will be provided to ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise.

Pg 58 HC Bill – Government will have real-time access to individual’s finances and a National ID Healthcard will be issued!

Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Government will have direct access to your bank accts for election funds transfer

PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in Unions & community organizations (read: ACORN).

Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Government will create an HC Exchange to bring private HC plans under Government control.

PG 84 Sec 203 HC bill - Government mandates ALL benefit packages for private HC plans in the Exchange.

PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specifics of Benefit Levels for Plans = The Government will ration your Healthcare!

PG 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - Government mandates linguistic appropriate services. Example - Translation for illegal aliens.

Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Government will use groups, i.e. ACORN & Americorps, to sign up individuals for Government HC plan.

PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specifics of Benefit Levels for Plans. AARP members - your Health care WILL be rationed.

-PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid Eligible Individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. No choice.

pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue Government on price fixing. No “judicial review” against Government Monopoly.

pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - Doctors/ AMA - The Government will tell YOU what you can earn.

Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into public option plan. NO CHOICE.

Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay for HC for part time employees AND their families.

Pg 149 Lines 16-24 ANY Employer with payroll $400k & above who does not provide public option pays 8% tax on all payroll.

pg 150 Lines 9-13 Businesses with payroll between $251k & $400k who don’t provide public option pay 2-6% tax on all payroll.

Pg 167 Lines 18-23 ANY individual who doesn’t have acceptable HC according to Government will be taxed 2.5% of income.

Pg 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes. (Americans will pay.)

continued

Pg 195 HC Bill -officers & employees of HC Admin (the GOVERNMENT) will have access to ALL Americans’ finances and personal records.

PG 203 Line 14-15 HC - “The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax” Yes, it says that.

Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill Government will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor affected.

Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill – Doctors – doesn’t matter what specialty – will all be paid the same.

PG 253 Line 10-18 Government sets value of Doctor’s time, professional judgment, etc. Literally, value of humans.

PG 265 Sec 1131Government mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries.

PG 268 Sec 1141 Federal Government regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs.

PG 272 SEC. 1145. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!

Page 280 Sec 1151 The Government will penalize hospitals for what Government deems preventable readmissions.

Pg 298 Lines 9-11 Doctors who treat a patient during initial admission that results in a readmission - Government will penalize you.

Pg 317 L 13-20 OMG!! PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Government tells Doctors what/how much they can own.

Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion - Government will mandate hospitals cannot expand.

pg 321 2-13 Hospitals have opportunity to apply for exception BUT community input required. Can u say ACORN?!

Pg335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339 - Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures which of course forces health care rationing.

Pg 341 Lines 3-9 Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Adv Plans, HMOs, etc., forcing people into Government plan.

Pg 354 Sec 1177 - Government will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs people!

Pg 379 Sec 1191 Government creates more bureaucracy - Telehealth Advisory Committee. HC by phone.

PG 425 Lines 4-12 Government mandates Advance Care Planning Consultations. Think Senior Citizens end of life prodding.

Pg 425 Lines 17-19 Government will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney. Mandatory!

PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Government provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in how to die.

PG 427 Lines 15-24 Government mandates program for orders for end of life. The Government has a say in how your life ends.

Pg 429 Lines 1-9 An “advanced care planning consultant” will be used frequently as patients’ health deteriorates.

PG 429 Lines 10-12 “advanced care consultation” may include an ORDER for end of life plans. AN ORDER from the Government to end a life!

Pg 429 Lines 13-25 - The Government will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order.

PG 430 Lines 11-15 The Government will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life.

Pg 469 - Community Based Home Medical Services/Non profit orgs. (ACORN Medical Services here?)

Page 472 Lines 14-17 PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORGANIZATION. 1 monthly payment to a community-based organization. (Like ACORN?)

PG 489 Sec 1308 The Government will cover Marriage & Family therapy. Which means they will insert Government into our marriages.

Pg 494-498 Government will cover Mental Health Services including defining, creating, rationing those services. You’d better speak up now before you are on the “advanced care consultation” list.

Originally posted by DohBama
reply to post by Peruvianmonk

 

Whats not to love?





Lets have a look again at how wonderful this bill is, shall we?:

Yes. Lets.

Pg 22 of the HC Bill mandates the Government will audit books of all employers that self insure.

Not starting off well mate, this says nothing about 'auditing the books' of businesses. Actually what it is talking about is studying the market as it says:

(1) STUDY.—The Commissioner, in coordination with the Secretary of Health and Human Services and the Secretary of Labor, shall conduct a study of the large group insured and self-insured

You can go ahead an read through the list of what the study will examine, I assure you it has nothing to do with 'auditing the books'...

Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill — a Government committee (good luck with that!) will decide what treatments/benefits a person may receive.

So do the insurance companies. They will make the rules regarding whether or not 'breast implants' and 'penis enlargement' are necessary or cosmetic procedures. Show me any statement where it says they will be deciding what treatments you get on a case by case basis.

Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill — YOUR HEALTHCARE WILL BE RATIONED!

how did you come up with the notion that this text talks about LIMITING your care? It says NOTHING about limits, it talks about COST SHARING (ie) how much oyu are going to have to pay out of pocket.

Lets look at the text itself shall we?

(A) ANNUAL LIMITATION.—The cost-sharing incurred under the essential benefits package with respect to an individual (or family) for a year does not exceed the applicable level specified in subparagraph (B).

(B) APPLICABLE LEVEL.—The applicable level specified in this subparagraph for Y1 is $5,000 for an individual and $10,000 for a family. Such levels shall be increased (rounded to the nearest $100) for each subsequent year by the annual percentage increase in the Consumer Price Index (United States city average) applicable to such year.

So what this is saying is this: the MAX you will pay in one year is $5k for a individual and $10k for a family.

No need to panic.

Pg 42 of HC Bill — The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your HC Benefits for you.

No no no. Please READ the bill. This is getting rediculous. Where did you get that the HCC will choose your plan?

His/Her duties will be: (1) QUALIFIED PLAN STANDARDS, (2) HEALTH INSURANCE EXCHANGE, INDIVIDUAL AFFORDABILITY CREDITS...

I guess in a way they will develop PLANS just like insurance companies do today. so you may have to pay more for pregnancy coverage, as an example, then not having it. but what did you expect that they were going to have no clarified plans of coverage and just do what ever you want for you? please this critique is meaningless.

The other 28 elements will have to wait till I have more time. What is already apparent is your enormous lack of understanding of the actual text of the elements cited. So much so that I can only assume you have not actually read them but that you took the list you provided form the source you provided and did no 'fact checking' before subscribing to the links philosophy whole heartedly. Exactly the type of dogmatic slumber I cited to the right-wing libertarian movement.

The source itself is a joke. To begin with the prominence of the article titled "Socialized Health Care: Who Suffers" is very telling seeing as how this is NOT socialized medicine. In fact,

The original meaning [of socialized heath care] was confined to systems in which the government operates health care facilities and employs health care professionals

link, which is CLEARLY not what is happening today. The definition has changed as the right-wing fringe has cooped the phrase to become a derogatory attack on any for of insurance that threatens their corporate masters.

Furthermore the author of the article you linked is clearly biased and nothing more than a partisan hack. From your link:

FamilySecurityMatters.org Contributing Editor Larry Schweikart is the author o 48 Liberal Lies About American History: (That You Probably Learned in School) and A Patriot’s History of the United States: From Columbus’s Great Discovery to the War on Terror. He blogs at patriotshistoryusa.blogspot.com.

Originally posted by Animal

perhaps you could elaborate?

I already did in my first post to this thread.

yet the right-wing libertarian fringe ...

So out of curiosity, is it possible for you to respond without labeling people who disagree with you as right-wing libertarians? Name-calling and labeling people who disagree with you is entirely unnecessary. All it does is serve to further divide people and distract from the topic with partisan bickering.

[edit on 30-7-2009 by Jenna]