Why is 'everyone' on this board so against an expansion of Public Health Care in the U.S?

Originally posted by SpacePunk
reply to post by Wildbob77

 

I want to know where in Fantasyland this free emergency care is so that I can move there.

Easy. Don't give them any info. Dont give the medics in the ambulance any info and dont give the hospital any info. Tell them you're Emilio Sanchez and you dont have your ID. Happens all the time as per my paramedic buddies.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


Good system then, you have to lie to get healthcare, nice. As for blaming everything on illegal immigrants, forced to look for work outside there own countries as a result of the pushing of the free-market ecnomy on their countires by sucsesive U.S administrations, get a new record, cause i just broke that one.

40 mil does not include those who do not have comprehensive insurance, but don't worry, your alright Jack.

reply to post by Peruvianmonk


For me this is the reason. It is called QALY (Quality Adjusted life year) and you have had it in the UK for 30 years.

I posted about it in this thread How much is a year of your life worth?

You might want to check the last post as well with the opinion of Betsy McCaughy, former Lt Gov of NY and currently a health care advocate.

reply to post by Peruvianmonk


You need to back up off the "hostile" approach. What "everything" did I blame on illegals? An illegal immigrant doesnt have access to the sort of employment a legal one does. Those numbers will factor into the waste of a national system.

If you want to argue the U.S. should be funding the hemisphere's health care than do so.

I take it when you say "successive administrations" you mean Bush? Globalization has been going on long before Bush. Look at the big picture. Look at the national welfare state as it has been for the past 60+ years. Look at how since the dawn of time man hasnt been able to mind his own damn business and has trampled on developing people's for profit.

This goes way beyond the past decade.

Oligarch run "health care" is more of the same totalitarian crap. There arent too many developing nations left to profit from that arent warring or dying so the focus must shift inward. That's all this is about. The best interest of the people is the last thing on these bastards minds just as it always has been.

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
It seems to suggest that a as long as 'i'm all right Jack' kind of culture exists in the U.S.

Correct me if i'm wrong please, but surely helping those who really genuinely cannot afford health insurance get it is a great thing. Please let me know.

I'll let you know buddy.

I work my rear end off for way too many hours and not near enough compensation. A lot -And I mean a HELL OF A LOT - of my pay goes to cover what is overpriced and piss poor health insurance but it's the best I can get. I can't afford it. It's not reasonable or realistic and it's not right. It hurts my bottom line, my minscule savings and my pride but I pay it because it is dammned irresponsible not to have at least the most basic and rudimentary health coverage. My deductible is 1000 dollars. That's right. I'm pouring cash down the tubes every week and if I want to see a doctor I've got to shell out a grand before I see any compensation. This is for a big multinational firm too.

Now the Obamanation, who thinks that because I'm not an irresponsible jackass who refuses to pay for health insurance that I'm somehow rich, wants me to underwrite the healthcare of those who don't pay for their own through taxes that I will have to pay on what I already can't afford.

Get the reality through your thick head genius. NOTHING IS FREE. The taxpayers are getting the worst of this and people like you spend all of your time expecting the rest of us to be "reasonable" about people who want us to provide for them as well as ourselves.

You want to pay for healthcare? Tax lobbying benefits to our corrupt and backwards political mobsters. There's your damn health care.

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
That's the question i pose to you all. There seems to be a general consensus that helping millions of people who cannot afford to get health care is fundementally wrong. It seems to suggest that a as long as 'i'm all right Jack' kind of culture exists in the U.S.

Correct me if i'm wrong please, but surely helping those who really genuinely cannot afford health insurance get it is a great thing. No-one, i feel, should have to enter through hospital doors with 'can i afford this?' running through their head.

We have the NHS in the U.K and it is nowhere near perfect, trust me, but at least it is all inclusive and levels the playing field for everyone. ANd at the same time you can get private health care if you please.

I am not trying to interfere or tell you how to run your country, i just have trouble understanding the mentality behind this. Is it because of the economic troubles your country has, and you think you cannot afford it as a nation? Is it an idelogy against any kind of paternal socalistic role of the government?

Please let me know.

It's not the expanshion we fear, but what comes with it........Which means THEY control what kind of health care you get and what is covered and what you pay and how much you pay and what doctors you see....


So if your best friend is a great doctor whom your family has been going to for the last 15 years, and all of the sudden they say no you can't go to him anymore , they send you 20 miles out of your way to go to some sh*t doctor who is new and yea you see where I'm going with this......

They don't tell you this until it happens but it's all drawn up in the bill using special wording....
Just wait

Personally I'm all for helping those who don't have insurance get it, and last I checked that's what Medicaid and Medicare are for. Beyond that, the government needs to keep their noses out of it. I don't think the country can survive anything else from the people who recently brought us $200 million to design and furnish the DHS headquarters and $4.5 million for wood utilization research, not to mention the millions they've already spent on it.

The insurance I have is run by the government. I had the same doctor for years, until we got our new government-run insurance. Then I had to change doctors because mine wasn't covered, and lucky me had my choice of three doctors in my area that I don't trust.

I had a baby a few years ago and my OB had to code everything just right or my insurance wouldn't cover it. When it was time to have the baby the doctor and I decided to do a C-section because of my baby's size and the harm that could have been done to both him and me had I not had the C-section. Insurance didn't want to cover it until my doctor convinced them it was a medical necessity and not elective.

I also have a heart condition that wasn't diagnosed until after we got our government-run insurance. The doctor ordered a halter monitor to see exactly what my heart was doing. Insurance didn't want to cover it because apparently heart problems in a then-22 year old aren't that serious.

That is what some are all happy happy joy joy about getting for everyone. The kind where an otherwise healthy 22 year old can be on the verge of cardiac arrest for no apparent cause and insurance doesn't want to pay for tests to find out why so that it can be taken care of. The kind where the well-being of an unborn child isn't that important and they'd rather claim a C-section was elective.

But I should be happy about the government forcing that kind of care on the rest of the country? I don't think so. They can stick that healthcare bill where the sun doesn't shine for all I care.

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
That's the question i pose to you all. There seems to be a general consensus that helping millions of people who cannot afford to get health care is fundamentally wrong. It seems to suggest that a as long as 'i'm all right Jack' kind of culture exists in the U.S...

From the people who I have talked with, their concern is not about helping others. If the government were to implement a mandatory health system, there is the potential for them to tell everyone: what to eat, what to drink, how much you 'must' weigh, etc... Its all about the government controlling 'everyone's' life. Over the past six to seven months, the United States government has embraced nationalization. This is a bad thing. It will give the government power to control all aspects of life, and it will eventually lead to the regulation of 'everything' we call freedom. Imagine if we woke up tomorrow morning and everything was nationalized?

Some of things will come from nationalization (socialism):
(1) Regulated meaning behind "The Freedom of Speech".
(2) Regulated weight program that will force people to be a certain size.
(3) Regulated paycheck that limits your economic growth.
(4) Regulated hair length for men and women.
(5) Regulated hair color.
(6) Regulated eye color.
(7) Regulated style of clothes.
(8) Regulated thinking towards one's own country.
(9) Regulated heating systems, which prevents you from adjusting your house thermostat.
(10) Regulated laws that prohibit tattoos and piercings.
(11) Regulated (forced) social service involvement. They should just call it a military draft.
(12) Regulated type of radio programs you are allowed to listen to.
(13) Regulated types of websites you are allowed to visit.
(14) Regulated types of music you are allowed to listen to.
(15) Regulated car insurance.
(16) Regulated financial system.
(17) Regulated educational limits.
(18) Regulated gun rights that conflict with constitutional law.
(19) Etc...

Nationalization (socialism) is the restriction of a societies rights, so that a government can maintain control over the limitations of a group's freedoms. Once you nationalize one portion of society, there is no limit behind how much farther the government will reach.

THIS IS REAL! OBAMA IS MAKING IT HAPPEN!

Obama's approval rating is down to 53% today. People are waking up. Honeymoon over!

[edit on 29-7-2009 by Pathos]

I think is is because people are by nature selfish and greedy. Also, all of this talk of depopulating the world...well, ensuring that only the rich and middle class have access to health care helps perpetuate the depopulation agenda against the poor.

Just my 2-cents

[edit on 29-7-2009 by Aggie Man]

I just do not want this legislation rammed through Congress without debate taking place and the American people knowing EXACTLY what is in the damn thing. Health Care reform can take place in due course and I am OK with that.

Having said that, I am not necessarily in favor of the US Government sticking their nose in this as they have a history of screwing things up when they get involved in "rushing" to pass things. I seem to remember being told that we have to pass a bailout bill immediately to avoid total collapse and guess what....that was a total mess as we are finding out now I think most would agree. Mr. Obama was critical of the Mr. Bush for "rushing" legislation and now he is doing the same freaking thing!!!!! I am really just sick of politics in general. Mr. Obama is in over his head I believe but is to stubborn to admit it. He makes a good representative of Illinois but not a very good President to this point.

reply to post by Peruvianmonk


I don't think the problem is with "free health care" but all the provisions and other "extras" thrown into the health care bill.

So the gov pushes the complete package as the health care bill but really its hundreds or thousands of separate things, some completely unrelated to health care.

One obvious question... If this is so great, then why has Congress already written provisions that exempt them from the program for the first 5 years with provisions for extending the exemption???

Sorry, but I don't need some bureaucrat determining my course of medical treatment and/or care based on BS statistics! The day the Legislative Branch and the Executive Branch partake in this EXACT same plan for themselve sand their families, then, and only then, will I be willing to have a conversation regarding the matter!

We feel this way because nearly every other country that has tried socialized medicine has failed, their taxes are sky high, production falls on every level because industry can’t create new jobs due to increased corporate taxes, and the reasons against it can go on and on.

As a small business owner I pay excessive taxes for other people besides my employees to get the already available health care coverage from existing social services. Sadly these services are being mismanaged by the government and much of my tax dollars are being spent on illegal aliens here in the US that drain the limited funds available. You see, here in the US if we simply stopped spending billions on these undocumented people, who are breaking the law being here anyway and who don’t pay taxes themselves and who steal ID information in order to get jobs, if we send these people back home where they belong then we would have more than enough money to do what we need to do and help those people who are citizens and pay taxes get the health care they need.

It’s not a lack of compassion on our end for those who need health care, it’s a realistic look on the fact that the US doesn’t have enough billions to give everyone in the western hemisphere the social services they want.

Originally posted by kozmo
One obvious question... If this is so great, then why has Congress already written provisions that exempt them from the program for the first 5 years with provisions for extending the exemption???

Sorry, but I don't need some bureaucrat determining my course of medical treatment and/or care based on BS statistics!

The day the Legislative Branch and the Executive Branch partake in this EXACT same plan for themselve sand their families, then, and only then, will I be willing to have a conversation regarding the matter!

Congress ALREADY has a better health care plan than most of us. SO, Why doesn't anyone have a problem with THAT?

reply to post by Aggie Man


A lot of people do have a problem with that. Their plan is paid for by the funds theyve been extorting from us. We have to pay for our own care and theirs.

But they arent considering the idea of taking their care down a step or two to help fund the care of others. They want to extort even more from me so they can maintain their level of care, pass on some rudimentary level of care to non-citizens and hobos while reducing my available funds for my own care thereby reducing my level of care and pushing me into hobo-care. All the while they maintain their high level of care I'm paying for.

Hypocrisy of the oligarchs. What they decide is good for us is not nearly good enough for them. We dine on the processed corpses of our bretheren while they enjoy wine and veal.

from a purely ideological perspective (which is often not practical), i offer these points:

1. i didnt ask to come to this planet, but i somehow ended up here. as an unwitting participant in this game, i DEMAND that the most very basic life-sustaining provisions be made available to me at no cost. (this is really not asking for much.)

2. for those of you ("NOTHING IS FREE") whom think this is some kind of impossible burden i say this: if we as a planet could manage to get our act together, there is PLENTY FOR ALL.

I just saw an article today on medicare fraud.

www.freep.com...

And I've gotta know how these things slip through the cracks when my medicare apparently questions everyhting and turns down paying the full bill on many tests.

We've always heard stories of fraud and abuse in some way or another. My one new medication prescription would have used up my coverage in just a few months. Why should pills cost that much to make? Many aren't even made in the U.S. anymore.

The system basically serves the corrupt white collar criminals.

I have serious doubts this corruption will stop with this new plan either.

If it ain't broke don't fix it?

The system is nearly broke or bankrupt already. Whose fault is that?

[edit on 29-7-2009 by aleon1018]

reply to post by tgidkp


I love your outlook! When you say there is enough for everybody ,you're right! The problem is that there are very few that do the actual work to provide it.
Imagine if you will that everyones job in the world was to pick up rocks all day. They set an average number of rocks for people to pick up. If you meet your quota you get paid. If some don't meet the quota no one gets paid. So someone has to pick up more rocks for those who refuse to do their share.Is that ok with you? Does that feel right?
You have to carry the burden for the people that have found that if they don't work,someone else will do it for them.
Socialism not only takes the wealth from people,it also places undue pain ,and pressure on the "working class".That is exactly what socialized medicine will do.
The Federal Government running health care. If they would spend $400 dollars on a hammer,what would they end up paying for an asprin. This Health care bill is just another way to fleece the sheep. Take the power of choice from the people,and heap on more slavery!

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
I'm sure those with the money will still continue to see much of the same service they already recieve.

Those with money will.

Those of us in the middle (the 3 of us that are left) will be pushed down and out of our private plans and lumped with the have-nots and given the LCD plan.

If it's so good, and those "with money" will remain unaffected why havent the oligarch's adopted the system for themselves? Why have they refused it for themselves at least twice?

I'm not one to enjoy living under thumbs. Especially when the thumb is "for my own good." "Helpful" fascism is all that is.

[edit on 29-7-2009 by thisguyrighthere]

I'm sorry to say but you are wrong. Only those with power in office will receive privatized healthcare and everyone else will get government mandated, no matter how much you make.

So why am I against it? Simple it will cost me more in taxes to pay for the damn thing than what I already pay to insure my entire family. If I decide I don't want it they will fine me $2500 per year plus my taxes. Oh and I almost forgot if I have something wrong with me I cannot see a specialist like I can now, I have to take pain meds to deal with it and wait in line for 3 years. I don't think so.

Oh and our advances in medical science will halt: no competition, no profit, no new discovery. Educate yourselves, there are people who live in other countries with universal healthcare and they come here for treatment. WAKE UP!

My problem with it is that the government is only looking out for those that are uninsured. They are the ones who will be subsidized and taken care of.

I have no written guarantee in this bill that this plan WILL reduce my health costs.

I have no written guarantee that this bill WILL reduce my premiums.

All I have is a guarantee that I, as a taxpayer, will have to pay for this plan in one way or the other.

Other than that this bill is nothing more than hocus pocus numbers, lots of pork, and dumb expectations that this plan is going to save money, not raise the deficit, and stay within budget.