Why is 'everyone' on this board so against an expansion of Public Health Care in the U.S?

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posted on Aug, 6 2009 @ 02:59 PM
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Originally posted by Merigold
It's a combination of resistance to government in healthcare, afterall they can't run anything else correctly and the "i'm ok, if you're not it's your own fault" mentality.


What about the Military's health care? It's first class and government run. Just because what they've been willing to do for YOU is crap, doesn't mean that all they're capable of is crap.




posted on Aug, 6 2009 @ 03:02 PM
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Originally posted by Syrus Magistus
What about the Military's health care? It's first class and government run. Just because what they've been willing to do for YOU is crap, doesn't mean that all they're capable of is crap.


Tricare is pretty good, but have you heard of CHAMPUS? That's what the military had prior to Tricare, and it sucked!!

I have no idea how many years we had to suffer with CHAMPUS before they finally got off their asses and designed Tricare. I wonder how many were screwed over before that happened?



posted on Aug, 6 2009 @ 05:41 PM
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Originally posted by Syrus Magistus

Originally posted by Merigold
It's a combination of resistance to government in healthcare, afterall they can't run anything else correctly and the "i'm ok, if you're not it's your own fault" mentality.


What about the Military's health care? It's first class and government run. Just because what they've been willing to do for YOU is crap, doesn't mean that all they're capable of is crap.


First class?





www.washingtonpost.com...

Soldiers Face Neglect, Frustration At Army's Top Medical Facility

Behind the door of Army Spec. Jeremy Duncan's room, part of the wall is torn and hangs in the air, weighted down with black mold. When the wounded combat engineer stands in his shower and looks up, he can see the bathtub on the floor above through a rotted hole. The entire building, constructed between the world wars, often smells like greasy carry-out. Signs of neglect are everywhere: mouse droppings, belly-up cockroaches, stained carpets, cheap mattresses.







www.washingtonpost.com...


Soldiers Share Troubling Stories Of Military Health Care Across U.S.

Ray Oliva went into the spare bedroom in his home in Kelseyville, Calif., to wrestle with his feelings. He didn't know a single soldier at Walter Reed, but he felt he knew them all. He worried about the wounded who were entering the world of military health care, which he knew all too well. His own VA hospital in Livermore was a mess. The gown he wore was torn. The wheelchairs were old and broken.

"It is just not Walter Reed," Oliva slowly tapped out on his keyboard at 4:23 in the afternoon on Friday. "The VA hospitals are not good either except for the staff who work so hard. It brings tears to my eyes when I see my brothers and sisters having to deal with these conditions. I am 70 years old, some say older than dirt but when I am with my brothers and sisters we become one and are made whole again."





www.military.com...

Vets Eyed For Health Cost Cuts

A new report from the Congressional Budget Office shows why some military retirees and veterans could face higher out-of-pocket costs if the Obama administration and Congress take bold moves to reform the U.S. health system and to make federal health programs more efficient.

Among 115 "options" presented, though not endorsed, in the CBO report, several focus on raising TRICARE out-of-pocket costs for retirees and one for families. Others would tighten access to VA hospitals and clinics, or raise VA health fees, for veterans with no service-connected conditions.





www.washingtonpost.com...

Panel: Military Health System Needs Help

WASHINGTON -- Many Iraq war soldiers, veterans and their families are not getting needed psychological help because a stressed military's mental health system is overwhelmed and understaffed, a task force of psychologists found.

The panel's 67-page report calls for the immediate strengthening of the military mental health system. It cites a 40 percent vacancy rate in active duty psychologists in the Army and Navy, resources diverted from family counselors and a weak transition for veterans leaving the military.





www.poligazette.com...

Quality of care is often highlighted as a major defect of the military health care system. One luxury of a private health care system is the ability to invest in staff and equipment based on expected future demand rather than just present demand. A publicly-funded health care system is constrained by the budget provided by the government which is, at best, based on current demand alone. That means that public health care always operates at a disadvantage in addressing changes in levels of demand. The consequence, borne out by the experience in the military health care system, is lessened access to expensive equipment (which is purchased less frequently by hospitals in a public system where they cannot act based on future expectations but must instead be limited by current budgets).




posted on Aug, 7 2009 @ 01:33 PM
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Why is 'everyone' on this board so against an expansion of Public Health Care in the U.S?


I suspect it is because ATS members are MUCH smarter than the idiots that slopped this 1200 pages of pork together. In addition, many of us actually READ the bill, unlike the idiots that slopped it together, with cut and paste from the lobbyists.



posted on Aug, 7 2009 @ 06:56 PM
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reply to post by ProfEmeritus
 





with cut and paste from the lobbyists.


Bingo! Get the lobbyist out! Until their influence is out of our government and no longer taints it....we'll always get screwed.

That's one thing I think Conservatives have wrong....they hate government because it's corrupted...which is true....but corrupted government is the symptom...not the cause of our ails.

It's any major organization, corporate entity, or special interest group that is the cause of our problems.

Ourselves as individuals did not put this country into trillions of debt...nor did we ask for constant attacks on our rights as citizens. We didn't ask to lose our jobs...we didn't ask to be on unemployment. We didn't ask to be on in a war that was brought upon a government catering to the military industrial complex...and we sure as hell didn't ask to see our soldiers and innocent people die!

I used to be angry before. I've grown beyond it..but it seems many are just beginning to get where I once was....

Afraid.... and unsure of what future is in store for us. I hope in the end people will find out why government is corrupted.

Right now they say it's for power...the politicians want more power.....but that makes no sense as we can vote them out....so what is the real reason?

That's what people are failing to realize....and I once failed to realize it as well....

Once a person sees it...as I did...and you as well Prof....everything makes so much more sense.



posted on Aug, 7 2009 @ 08:28 PM
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reply to post by David9176
 


David, I fear that the thugs that are now in control of our government will not take "no" for an answer. I was shocked when I saw the videos of the SEIU Union thugs that Obama and the Dems had sent to protests, to rough up anyone that opposed health care.
A black conservative man was brutally attacked and beaten by 6 union thugs who were wearing shirts supporting the Health Care Bill. This is what Obama meant when he said that if opponents attack health care, he will attack back twice as hard. If this is not a reason for impeachment, then I don't know what is.



posted on Aug, 7 2009 @ 09:15 PM
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We already have socialized care.
It's called "the emergency room", where hundreds of thousands a day, poor, illegals, deadbeats, con artists, show up for free care paid for by charging those who pay many multiples of the honest cost of the services.

If the government wanted to help, they could just take care of those people, instead of forcing care on the backs of the middle class, and maybe the aspirin I can buy at the store for 2 cents wouldn't cost me 15 dollars at the hospital.

I mean, seriously. They can print up 27 TRILLION $$$ and counting to help out the bankers, a couple trillion would cover everyone who honestly couldn't afford it.



posted on Aug, 7 2009 @ 10:11 PM
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Originally posted by David9176
reply to post by ProfEmeritus
 


Bingo! Get the lobbyist out! Until their influence is out of our government and no longer taints it....we'll always get screwed.

That's one thing I think Conservatives have wrong....they hate government because it's corrupted...which is true....but corrupted government is the symptom...not the cause of our ails.


I agree the lobbyists are part of the problem.

But if we follow that line of thought, the cause of the coruption is the government having too much control and not enough accountability, no?

Giving them more control is not going help and we see how transparent Obama is, he is too elite to share this health care with us, no wonder he won't take the time to read it, or even reveal his BC.



posted on Aug, 7 2009 @ 10:21 PM
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Originally posted by mhc_70

Originally posted by David9176
reply to [url=http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread486437

I agree the lobbyists are part of the problem.

But if we follow that line of thought, the cause of the coruption is the government having too much control and not enough accountability, no?


That is a fair argument. But what is the alternate proposal you would make? Less Federal and more State government? How would that change anything? I think that the proposal to take away the ability to big money to use their cash to influence the political process would be the creation of more oversight. Breaking the government up, or 'drowning it in a bath tub' only makes less people in power and less people for the corporations to buy.

The issue of control is, IMHO over stated. While I do see the USA as a much less free country that it touts, I do not think of it as totalitarian. Still improvement can and should be made.



Giving them more control is not going help


True, but I dont see the health care plan as giving away any more control than already exists under the rule of the corporate elite. In fact I see it as an improvement. Dont let your mistrust of the government, regardless of its merit, cloud your perspective on the issue. Compare what is being proposed to what exists.



and we see how transparent Obama is, he is too elite to share this health care with us, no wonder he won't take the time to read it, or even reveal his BC.


What?

[edit on 7-8-2009 by Animal]



posted on Aug, 7 2009 @ 10:56 PM
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Originally posted by Animal

That is a fair argument. But what is the alternate proposal you would make? Less Federal and more State government? How would that change anything? I think that the proposal to take away the ability to big money to use their cash to influence the political process would be the creation of more oversight.


I agree, IMO lobbyists need to be eliminated or highly taxed and regulated.



Breaking the government up, or 'drowning it in a bath tub' only makes less people in power and less people for the corporations to buy.


I never said break up the government, not following you here




The issue of control is, IMHO over stated. While I do see the USA as a much less free country that it touts, I do not think of it as totalitarian. Still improvement can and should be made.


For example, the ability to legislate a bill to the American people, while freeing themselves from its limitations. Or how about voting themselves new Gulf Streams to travel in months after critizing the automaker CEOs for doing the same... thats too much control.



True, but I dont see the health care plan as giving away any more control than already exists under the rule of the corporate elite. In fact I see it as an improvement. Dont let your mistrust of the government, regardless of its merit, cloud your perspective on the issue. Compare what is being proposed to what exists.


That argument would hold alot more water if we had one successful model to follow, but even more so, it is the number of failed attempts that has forged my mistrust in the government health care plans.



and we see how transparent Obama is, he is too elite to share this health care with us, no wonder he won't take the time to read it, or even reveal his BC.


What?



More reasons I do not believe I am letting my mistrust of the government cloud my perspective on the issue.



posted on Aug, 7 2009 @ 11:16 PM
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Originally posted by mhc_70

Originally posted by Animal
That argument would hold alot more water if we had one successful model to follow, but even more so, it is the number of failed attempts that has forged my mistrust in the government health care plans.


Please expand on this. Show me some valid examples and details that highlight what you are talking about and I may actually listen.



posted on Aug, 7 2009 @ 11:38 PM
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reply to post by Animal
 


Medicare, medicaid, soical security are all going broke.

Google "state health care budget" and the headlines are filled with cuts, slash, crisis which are all just metaphors for raising taxes and cutting programs. What I have described is not hard to verify.



posted on Aug, 7 2009 @ 11:39 PM
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Originally posted by mhc_70
reply to post by Animal
 


Medicare, medicaid, soical security are all going broke.

Google "state health care budget" and the headlines are filled with cuts, slash, crisis which are all just metaphors for raising taxes and cutting programs. What I have described is not hard to verify.



Try actually SHOWING some evidence...



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 12:04 AM
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Originally posted by Animal

Originally posted by mhc_70
reply to post by Animal
 




Medicare, medicaid, soical security are all going broke.

Google "state health care budget" and the headlines are filled with cuts, slash, crisis which are all just metaphors for raising taxes and cutting programs. What I have described is not hard to verify.



Try actually SHOWING some evidence...


I'll give you the benefit of doubt, although I think you are intentionally being obtuse...



www.heritage.org...

Medicare, Medicaid, Soical Security

In the coming decades, the cost of these programs will leap from 8.4 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) to 18.6 percent of GDP—an increase of 10.2 percent of GDP. Without reform, this increased cost would require raising taxes by the current equiva­lent of $12,072 per household or eliminating every other government program. Funding all of the prom­ised benefits with income taxes would require rais­ing the 35 percent income tax bracket to at least 77 percent and raising the 25 percent tax bracket to at least 55 percent.

www.google.com...

HARTFORD, Conn. — Aurice Barlow knows what happens when someone can't afford dental care.

"I see people walking the streets with toothaches, teeth hanging out of their mouths," said the former nurse's aide. At least 30 percent of the people in this city of 124,500 are impoverished.

"Nobody cares," she says.

Barlow is worried she'll now become one of them.

Washington is pouring $87 billion in federal stimulus money into the states to help maintain state-run Medicaid health care for the needy — and to handle the expected surge in enrollment.

But Connecticut and other cash-strapped states say they still must slash spending on health care to cover massive budget deficits. At least 21 states have already restricted low-income children's and families' eligibility for health insurance or their access to services; at least 22 states and the District of Columbia are cutting services for low-income elderly or disabled patients.

Those considering Medicaid cuts are targeting benefits considered optional under federal rules — such as adults' dental coverage, vision care and some therapy — as well as cuts or freezes in Medicaid reimbursement. Some states are also looking to cut non-Medicaid or state-funded programs.

In Connecticut, where a budget agreement has not yet been reached, Gov. M. Jodi Rell wants to limit Medicaid dental benefits for adults to emergencies only, saving nearly $51 million over two years.

Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal plans to shut down a mental health hospital in New Orleans by Sept. 1, consolidating its services with a suburban facility 35 miles away. Residents have filed a lawsuit to stop the closure.

_ Illinois plans to cut $40 million from a prescription drug program for about 200,000 low-income seniors and people with disabilities. About 150,000 of them will have to pay more out-of-pocket.

_ The Ohio Legislature sharply cut drug and alcohol addiction services and community-based mental health care.

_ Maryland's Medicaid cuts include rates paid to nursing homes, spending on hospital stays and an inflation adjustment for community health care providers.

_ Washington state cut about $255 million, more than 40 percent, from a state program that offers low-cost subsidized health insurance for the poor.

"While some things have been avoided, delayed, to meet these significant budget shortfalls, states are considering some pretty major cutbacks to the program," said Robin Rudowitz, a principal policy analyst at the Kaiser Family Foundation in Washington, D.C.

Many of the programs facing cutbacks or elimination were hard-won by advocates over the years.




[edit on 8-8-2009 by mhc_70]

[edit on 8-8-2009 by mhc_70]



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 04:59 PM
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Get the lobbyists out? Hahah... Too late!

Drugmakers ready $150 million for Obama plan
www.msnbc.msn.com...


Additionally, the industry is the major contributor to Healthy Economy Now, which recently completed a $12 million round of advertising nationally and in several states. The ads were made by firms with close ties to Democrats and the White House and generally reflected the administration's changing rhetoric on health care.




Any health care bill that makes it to Obama's desk is expected to extend health insurance to the nearly 50 million who now lack it. That would mean a huge new pool of potential customers for drug companies and other health care providers. That, in turn, has created an incentive to offer concessions to the White House and lawmakers in hopes of shaping the bill, rather than simply opposing it.




Drugmakers have also funneled more money to Democrats in recent years, a trend that began soon after they gained control of Congress.


Hahaha... Government and corporate health care will buy, own, and sell everyone's but for money. We are only $$$$ signs to these people. Don't fool yourselves.

[edit on 8-8-2009 by Pathos]



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 05:06 PM
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Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
Why is 'everyone' on this board so against an expansion of Public Health Care in the U.S?.


I'm not against it. I'd be perfectly fine with a Canadian or similar public system. People call what we have now a "system", but it's not a system at all. It's a bunch of insurance and pharmaceutical companies raping us. It's a cluster-f__k really if you think about it.

I work in the technology field, and it would be great to break on my own again, and work independantly. Myself and many of my friends wind-up working for employers mostly just for the "benefits". Otherwise, we'd be out consulting! You just can't take the risks right now of not being covered, and getting direct coverage yourself is even more expensive.

And don't even get me started on the "pre-existing conditions" and "lapse of coverage" bull-sheot.

Anyway, imh(f)o. Peace.



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 05:25 PM
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Originally posted by mhc_70

Originally posted by Animal
Try actually SHOWING some evidence...


I'll give you the benefit of doubt, although I think you are intentionally being obtuse...



www.heritage.org...

Medicare, Medicaid, Soical Security

In the coming decades, the cost of these programs will leap from 8.4 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) to 18.6 percent of GDP—an increase of 10.2 percent of GDP. Without reform, this increased cost would require raising taxes by the current equiva­lent of $12,072 per household or eliminating every other government program. Funding all of the prom­ised benefits with income taxes would require rais­ing the 35 percent income tax bracket to at least 77 percent and raising the 25 percent tax bracket to at least 55 percent.

www.google.com...



Are you serious? This is laughable. I am sure without a doubt that there will be MASSIVE increases in the cost of health care by the time 2050 rolls around. That you would use estimations that prove the fact that over the next 41 years costs will increase by 10% is just plain SILLY. Do you think health care from private insurance is not going to show the same trend?

Here is a little fact for ya mate:


Here is a raw fact, from the National Health Expenditure Data since 1970 Medicare costs per beneficiary have risen at an annual rate of 8.8% — but insurance premiums have risen at an annual rate of 9.9%. The rise in Medicare costs is just part of the overall rise in health care spending. And in fact Medicare spending has lagged private spending: if insurance premiums had risen “only” as much as Medicare spending, they’d be 1/3 lower than they are.


link

What does this tell us?

First, that your posted information, regardless of its relevance as fact, is irrelevant. We have seen an increase from the 1970's to early 2000's of about 8.8% making the 10% your source is sighting as actually AN IMPROVEMENT.

Second, that the comparison between increases in Medicare and Private insurance shows Medicare. rates increase MORE SLOWLY or LESS than medicare. The information shows that private insurance would be 1/3 less in cost than it is now (on average) if its cost inflation were equal to that of medicare.

What this means is your stuck in a vacuum of information that is only presented to scare you away from a public option because those making all the cash, THE CORPORATIONS want to continue to make money off our fear of dying from a curable disease.




HARTFORD, Conn. — Aurice Barlow knows what happens when someone can't afford dental care.

"I see people walking the streets with toothaches, teeth hanging out of their mouths," said the former nurse's aide. At least 30 percent of the people in this city of 124,500 are impoverished.

"Nobody cares," she says.

Barlow is worried she'll now become one of them.

Washington is pouring $87 billion in federal stimulus money into the states to help maintain state-run Medicaid health care for the needy — and to handle the expected surge in enrollment.

But Connecticut and other cash-strapped states say they still must slash spending on health care to cover massive budget deficits. At least 21 states have already restricted low-income children's and families' eligibility for health insurance or their access to services; at least 22 states and the District of Columbia are cutting services for low-income elderly or disabled patients.

Those considering Medicaid cuts are targeting benefits considered optional under federal rules — such as adults' dental coverage, vision care and some therapy — as well as cuts or freezes in Medicaid reimbursement. Some states are also looking to cut non-Medicaid or state-funded programs.

In Connecticut, where a budget agreement has not yet been reached, Gov. M. Jodi Rell wants to limit Medicaid dental benefits for adults to emergencies only, saving nearly $51 million over two years.

Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal plans to shut down a mental health hospital in New Orleans by Sept. 1, consolidating its services with a suburban facility 35 miles away. Residents have filed a lawsuit to stop the closure.

_ Illinois plans to cut $40 million from a prescription drug program for about 200,000 low-income seniors and people with disabilities. About 150,000 of them will have to pay more out-of-pocket.

_ The Ohio Legislature sharply cut drug and alcohol addiction services and community-based mental health care.

_ Maryland's Medicaid cuts include rates paid to nursing homes, spending on hospital stays and an inflation adjustment for community health care providers.

_ Washington state cut about $255 million, more than 40 percent, from a state program that offers low-cost subsidized health insurance for the poor.

"While some things have been avoided, delayed, to meet these significant budget shortfalls, states are considering some pretty major cutbacks to the program," said Robin Rudowitz, a principal policy analyst at the Kaiser Family Foundation in Washington, D.C.

Many of the programs facing cutbacks or elimination were hard-won by advocates over the years.


So what are you trying to show here? That the states are going broke? We all already knwo that mate.

This really has very little to do with proving your point in regards to the argument against a FEDERAL PUBLIC OPTION program.

If anything this shows us the importance of putting in a federal system as the need is obviously growing.

[edit on 8-8-2009 by Animal]



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 05:38 PM
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Originally posted by Animal
So what are you trying to show here? That the states are going broke? We all already knwo that mate.

This really has very little to do with proving your point in regards to the argument against a FEDERAL PUBLIC OPTION program.


You asked for evidence the programs were going broke, I provided it and you replied that you already knew that. That verifies my suspicion that your only intention is to be obtuse.



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 05:42 PM
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reply to post by mhc_70
 


funny because i actually showed you that FEDERAL programs actually are doing better in terms of costs than private programs.

while state's are slashing every program they can without a doubt this reality only BOLSTERS the need for a new system.

private insurance program pricing rapidly outpaces the cost of federal programs.

states are n longer able to provide basic coverage due to the new financial hardship facing the country.

therefore a NEW system needs to be developed.

you are going to need to show us WHY private insurance is better for us than an alternative public option.

So far you have not.

This is not an attack on you, but rather an attack on the notion that the public option is somehow WORSE for us than private insurance. A notion for which there is just no good evidence to back up.



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 06:21 PM
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Originally posted by Animal
reply to post by mhc_70
 


funny because i actually showed you that FEDERAL programs actually are doing better in terms of costs than private programs.


I thought the we agreed the federal programs were going broke and the problem with private health insurance is they are getting too rich?

Do you even keep up with what you post?



while state's are slashing every program they can without a doubt this reality only BOLSTERS the need for a new system.


Your circular logic has taken the debate full circle. New systems have been tried by government time and time again, but the end result has always been the same, cutbacks in health care and increase in taxes because they all seem to be going broke.



private insurance program pricing rapidly outpaces the cost of federal programs.


The government has no choice but to cut costs, otherwise they would run out of funding.

The increase in private healthcare is largely due to patients choosing to have very expensive procedures using expensive technology that wasn't available 20 or 30 years ago. This is essential to improving quality.



states are n longer able to provide basic coverage due to the new financial hardship facing the country.

therefore a NEW system needs to be developed.

you are going to need to show us WHY private insurance is better for us than an alternative public option.

So far you have not.

This is not an attack on you, but rather an attack on the notion that the public option is somehow WORSE for us than private insurance. A notion for which there is just no good evidence to back up.


The majority of Americans see the public option as worse, especially if it takes away the right to choose a private health care provider. If thats what I feel like will best suite my health care needs why shouldn't I have an alternative to the public plan? The public option is already there, but it does need some reform as well as private health insurance reform.





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