It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Hawaii again declares Obama birth certificate real

page: 14
21
<< 11  12  13    15 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 03:53 AM
link   

Originally posted by CharlesMartel
Obama and his people love this issue.

1. They think it makes conservatives distance themselves from "crazy right wingers".


Even Ann Coulter thinks this is stupid and that lady is a fruit-basket.



I mean really, does anyone have ANY real proof that Obama was born in Kenya?

Is there a record of his mother flying there while pregnant?

Who ran the birth announcements in 1961 that have actually been found?

Anything at all?

This is just rumor generated speculation based on nothing factual.
The state of Hawaii has already confirmed this...TWICE.

I'm willing to take their word for it, since the opposing argument has no facts to support itself other than crying out "prove to me he's a citizen because I don't think he is" repeatedly.

- Lee




posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 07:54 AM
link   

Originally posted by Chronogoblin
I just love how the majority of believers in this matter like to divide people into two nice little piles, where your either a republican, or a racist. As if there is no other option.


No there is at least one other option: you are being duped by the guys in the smoke filled rooms that keep feeding you these crap theories. They stay quiet and let 'you all' run with it and keep everyone on edge.

When I was in school they actually taught us that once the Presidential election was decided, it was the voice of the people, and the job of the 'loyal opposition' to respect that decision and continue to work towards the betterment of the country and their constituents.

This traditional teaching has been completely rejected by the arch-conservative puppet masters ever since they got burned by Nixon. In their minds, they are not there to serve the people, the people are to serve them. When they are out of power, their only reason for existence is to get back into power, and to that end they will do anything, including launch repeated attacks on the President by any means of dirty tricks possible. And when in power, they control utterly the President to their ends. In both cases, bugger the interests of the country, it only exists for their self aggrandizement, and they will continue to do anything to keep that power, including starting non-nonsensical wars (and no, I don't blame 9/11 on them).



Comments like: "Your all just closet racists"

The smear campaign by the back room clique is specifically designed to play into racists mind set. That doesn't mean that every one who gets duped is a racist, but they are definitely pulling that string.



As well as: "You lost the election, get over it!"

Yes. The American tradition is to accept the result and support the President, not smear him via unsupported gossip and tear him down with witch hunts.



Really get on my nerves. Hate to tell it to the small minded believers on this forum, but there are more people in the world interested in this matter than you can easily fit into either of those two groups. The fact that believers assume your one or the other really shows how narrow minded they really are. Just because you believers can't fathom 'what the problem is', doesn't mean there isn't one. So you can sit there one the other side of the net, with your smug self-satisfies little selves and believe all you want that this is about politics, or race, when in reality it is about character and truth.

We understand what the problem is, and what you think the problem is. But the only question here about character and truth is: what is the character of those people who are so blind to truth that they won't accept it when it is shown to them? What kind of character is possessed by people who continue to demand answers after the answers have been given; people who would rather believe complicated, impossible contortions have gone on to manipulate the world for 50 years for the express purpose of putting an ineligible man in office when it would have been so much easier to put an eligible man in office in the first place and not suffer these questions?



I sometimes wish we could see Obama from the back, so we could see the hand up his backside, pulling his strings and making him talk. He is one of the most insidious and untrustworthy politicians I've ever seen. Not because he is black, but because he is shady. He reminds me so much of one of those shysters that get you to sign on the dotted line for something you think you need, only to find out you've signed your life savings away.


See, here you give away your motivation; You simply don't like the man. You aren't interested in the truth one way or the other; this (non-)issue is a just a way to express it and get attention.

Learn to play the ball, not the man.

[edit on 30/7/2009 by rnaa]



posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 07:56 AM
link   
reply to post by evil incarnate
 





EvilIncarnate: Ugggggggggh. Everytime I ask enough pertinent questions to those that pretend to be in the know, they all end up giving me their 'opinion.' I want facts, evidence, proof.


You want proof of my opinion, my perspective on how government merely serves the super-rich? That's quite the demand, I'm sorry but I have better things to do. If that is not obvious to you, I'm not gonna waste my time.

Funny actually, that you demand proof from me, but for something that could easily be proven by Obama, you're willing to go on the word of government officials...




Evil Incarnate: I thought people came here looking for the truth?


I don't really come here for the truth, I enjoy the many perspectives and interpretations and speculation just as much or even more so. Who are you to tell people what they should want/do here on ATS?

What I meant with the quote issue was that when you press the quote button on someone's post, it quotes the whole post and then you have to cut the crap you don't need out. So instead I just use the yellow quote button that shows up whenever you type out a reply. I think you are right that it's courteous to add the source to the quote like you pointed out, so I do that now. I'm not 'sneakily' trying to lie or make someone look bad, again, I have no dog in this fight because of my political views.

However, since the mainstream media is running with this BC issue, and is generating a generalization that birthers = truthers = teabaggers = wingnuts, and many here fall for it and join their name-calling bandwagon, I'm interested in this topic and how it'll develop.



posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 09:31 AM
link   

Originally posted by Psynarchist
reply to post by evil incarnate
 


However, since the mainstream media is running with this BC issue, and is generating a generalization that birthers = truthers = teabaggers = wingnuts, and many here fall for it and join their name-calling bandwagon, I'm interested in this topic and how it'll develop.


Its actually the conservative media that is coming to the conclusion expressed in your equation.

And that is expressly because they realize that it is embarrassing to be associated with fringe lunacy, that the majority of Americans see through the lunacy just as they did with Clinton, and if they don't get the conservative agenda back on real issues there will be an electoral bloodbath like nothing seen since Johnson put the beat down on Goldwater.



posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 10:16 AM
link   
reply to post by grover
 


Grover,

It seems to me that you're just as hate filled as the "birthers" and their ilk. It's only the focus of the hate that's different.

Also, what's with all the white Irish Catholic Republican crap? Is that how you see it? The "birthers" are all W-I-C-R's? Don't you suppose there are at least a few black Somali Baptist Independents wondering why there is no documentation indicating which hopital Mr. Obama was born in, and what doctor delivered him? Maybe you just meant to say that if he was anything other than black with a non-western surname, no one would question his country of birth?

Make no mistake, I don't give a crap where Mr Obama was born. I just find your hipocracy tedious.



posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 10:44 AM
link   

Originally posted by Psynarchist
Funny actually, that you demand proof from me, but for something that could easily be proven by Obama, you're willing to go on the word of government officials...


To the satisfaction of a vast majority of Americans, Obama has proven his eligibility. He has posted his COLB online, and Hawaii has verified that it is genuine twice.


Originally posted by Psynarchist
However, since the mainstream media is running with this BC issue, and is generating a generalization that birthers = truthers = teabaggers = wingnuts, and many here fall for it and join their name-calling bandwagon, I'm interested in this topic and how it'll develop.


It is all too easy...









So there you go. Lots of information. This is why people that believe that Obama isn't eligible look foolish.



posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 01:12 PM
link   
reply to post by darkbluesky
 

I meant no slur to white Irish Catholics what so ever. Nor do I think all blithers are that...I used white Irish Catholic as an example...I could have also used white Anglo Saxon protestant as well...the point was to give an example of the mainstream as opposed to Obama's mixed race and background.


JEEEZZZZZZ Do I have to explain everything?



posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 06:22 PM
link   

Originally posted by Psynarchist
You want proof of my opinion, my perspective on how government merely serves the super-rich? That's quite the demand, I'm sorry but I have better things to do. If that is not obvious to you, I'm not gonna waste my time.

Funny actually, that you demand proof from me, but for something that could easily be proven by Obama, you're willing to go on the word of government officials...



I am sorry, I did not realize that English was not your first language. I must appologize for writing exactly what I wanted to when I should have known you would completely miss what I said.

I could care less about your opinion and your perspective. If you want to accuse someone of fraud, you have to have something to back that accusation up with.

You accuse the president of fraud. Prove it.

Blather on about what you think, feel, dream, whatever all you want. When you actually accuse someone of a crime, back it up.

How about this- You are a devil worshipping martian who eats live babies for breakfast. You have murdered 24 people and are a fugitive from the law. I do not even want to get into what you did to all those poor children, you sicko.

I get to accuse you of anything I want and it is up to you to prove me wrong right? This is the U.S. where you are guilty until proven innocent, right?

You birthers have twisted logic until it breaks completely and it is starting to get comical, disregarding how sad it is as well.

I never asked you to back up or prove your opinion. Saying Obama is not a legitimate president because he is an illegal alien is not an opinion. That is an accusation supposedly based on something. What is it based on? A russian lawyer and tae kwon do master?



posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 07:53 PM
link   

Obama was born in Hawaii and is our President



In an attempt to try and save myself from severe carpel tunnel syndrome from having to type out the same facts over and over again in these Alien Obama threads. I have developed this form post specifically to point out the record of what is the truth in this matter.

First, FactCheck.org has examined Obama's birth certificate. (The COLB) and found it to be genuine.

For reference, the following images were taken by people at FactCheck.org.











Let us look at Hawaii's Revised Statutes in this matter...


§338-13 Certified copies. (a) Subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, 338-17, and 338-18, the department of health shall, upon request, furnish to any applicant a certified copy of any certificate, or the contents of any certificate, or any part thereof.

(b) Copies of the contents of any certificate on file in the department, certified by the department shall be considered for all purposes the same as the original, subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, ]338-17, and 338-18.

(c) Copies may be made by photography, dry copy reproduction, typing, computer printout or other process approved by the director of health. [L 1949, c 327, §17; RL 1955, §57-16; am L Sp 1959 2d, c 1, §19; HRS §338-13; am L 1978, c 49, §1]


Source:www.capitol.hawaii.gov...

I added extra links for disclosure.


§338-19 Photostatic or typewritten copies of records. The department of health is authorized to prepare typewritten, photostatic, or microphotographic copies of any records and files in its office, which by reason of age, usage, or otherwise are in such condition that they can no longer be conveniently consulted or used without danger of serious injury or destruction thereof, and to certify to the correctness of such copies. The typewritten, photostatic, or microphotographic copies shall be competent evidence in all courts of the State with like force and effect as the original. [L 1949, c 327, §23; RL 1955, §57-22; am L 1957, c 8, §1; am L Sp 1959 2d, c 1, §19; HRS §338-19]


Source: www.capitol.hawaii.gov...

One member also pointed out this law that I must share with you. They claimed that anyone can get a birth certificate from Hawaii no matter where they were born. However this was flawed from the get go.

Here is the law they were referring to.


[§338-17.8] Certificates for children born out of State. (a) Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.

(b) Proof of legal residency shall be submitted to the director of health in any manner that the director shall deem appropriate. The director of health may also adopt any rules pursuant to chapter 91 that he or she may deem necessary or proper to prevent fraudulent applications for birth certificates and to require any further information or proof of events necessary for completion of a birth certificate.

(c) The fee for each application for registration shall be established by rule adopted pursuant to chapter 91. [L 1982, c 182, §1]


Source: www.capitol.hawaii.gov...

please note Section B which I have bolded.

Fox News reports this AP Article...


HONOLULU -- State officials in Hawaii on Monday said they have once again checked and confirmed that President Barack Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen, and therefore meets a key constitutional requirement for being president.

They hoped to stem a recent surge in the number of inquiries about Obama's birthplace.

"I ... have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen," Health Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said in a brief statement. "I have nothing further to add to this statement or my original statement issued in October 2008 over eight months ago."

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


Politifact.com also asserts that Obama was born in Hawaii and thus is eligible to be POTUS.

So there you go. Please feel free to offer up some evidence to the contrary, ANY evidence at this point would be a plus to the side that believe that Obama is not eligible.



posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 10:36 PM
link   
reply to post by grover
 





Evil_Incarnate: I never asked you to back up or prove your opinion. Saying Obama is not a legitimate president because he is an illegal alien is not an opinion. That is an accusation supposedly based on something. What is it based on? A russian lawyer and tae kwon do master?


...can you please refer me to where I stated that I thought he was illegitimate? How did you surmise I'm a 'birther' other than by jumping to conclusions based on generalizations?

Edit to add:



Evil_Incarnate: You birthers...



[edit on 30-7-2009 by Psynarchist]



posted on Jul, 30 2009 @ 11:31 PM
link   
reply to post by Psynarchist
 


I can see what is happening here and I have fallen for the same trap a time or two.

Carefully worded phrases trying to illicit an argument from your opponent or to evoke an emotional response.

Posts by Psynarchist

In this game of yours you haven't spent one point in trying to argue a side, instead you have tried to invoke an emotional response out of people.

Fine, your not a birther as it is stated. What is your stake in this drama?

are you simply fishing for an argument? Or do you have something relevant to add to the conversation?

Is your issue with the birth certificate solely based on a hatred for just the ptb and are looking for a justification to fixate your aggression on?



[edit on 7/30/2009 by whatukno]



posted on Jul, 31 2009 @ 12:07 AM
link   

Originally posted by Psynarchist
reply to post by grover
 





Evil_Incarnate: I never asked you to back up or prove your opinion. Saying Obama is not a legitimate president because he is an illegal alien is not an opinion. That is an accusation supposedly based on something. What is it based on? A russian lawyer and tae kwon do master?


...can you please refer me to where I stated that I thought he was illegitimate? How did you surmise I'm a 'birther' other than by jumping to conclusions based on generalizations?

Edit to add:



Evil_Incarnate: You birthers...



[edit on 30-7-2009 by Psynarchist]


You are just too funny. Birhters are suddenlt falling all over themselves to be the first ones to say "I never said the president was any kind of anything, how dare you say that I did."

OK, lets just go to your last post -

Funny actually, that you demand proof from me, but for something that could easily be proven by Obama, you're willing to go on the word of government officials...


and

but this issue has interested me to some degree in the previous weeks, merely because I do not trust Obama


and

wouldn't it make more sense to just be honest and say he prefers that his father's identity to remain undisclosed for personal reasons?


Reading your posts makes my nose bleed. I cannot believe how quickly you and your little buddies are to say so much about how untrustworthy he is and how he needs to setttle this...but...you do not believe he has anything to hide?????

OK, buddy!

This is supposed to say that you believe he was born in Hawaii?

Is English tough for you? It is proving quite the problem for you and your ilk on these threads suddenly. What exactly are you trying to say if it is not that Obama was not born in Hawaii? What is your side here? Please clarify because apparently people who read your posts see the same thing that I do. Perhaps you need to read your posts on this thread.

Tell you what, You will get what it is you think I owe you as soon as you can explain to me when I became grover. I see 'reply to grover' and then nothing but a response to me. You want to question my ability to read?

[edit on 31-7-2009 by evil incarnate]



posted on Jul, 31 2009 @ 01:23 AM
link   
reply to post by rnaa
 


True and false.

True: I don't like Obama, but that's neither here nor there. There are alot of people I don't like, but tolerate, because that's what you do to get by in this world.

False: In that you assume that the fact that I don't like him precludes me from seeking the truth regardless of outcome. You talk about the character of people who "can't accept proof when it's presented to them", when in reality, you yourself really have no room to talk. What kind of character does a person have, who blindly accepts things at face value, and who refuses to ask questions when doubts are raised, or who takes what snippets of 'proof' that are parleyed out like Halloween candy, and simply accepts that as being all there is to it? Simple logic dictates that if there were nothing going on, then there would be no questions left to ask. A man with an honest demeanor has nothing to fear from those that do question, as he knows those questions are harmless. Why go to such lengths to hide what isn't there? As long as there is deflection and attempts at subterfuge then there will be doubt, and as long as there is doubt, people will continue to question.

Chrono



posted on Jul, 31 2009 @ 02:35 AM
link   

Originally posted by Chronogoblin
reply to post by rnaa
 

False: In that you assume that the fact that I don't like him precludes me from seeking the truth regardless of outcome. You talk about the character of people who "can't accept proof when it's presented to them", when in reality, you yourself really have no room to talk. What kind of character does a person have, who blindly accepts things at face value, and who refuses to ask questions when doubts are raised, or who takes what snippets of 'proof' that are parleyed out like Halloween candy, and simply accepts that as being all there is to it? Simple logic dictates that if there were nothing going on, then there would be no questions left to ask. A man with an honest demeanor has nothing to fear from those that do question, as he knows those questions are harmless. Why go to such lengths to hide what isn't there? As long as there is deflection and attempts at subterfuge then there will be doubt, and as long as there is doubt, people will continue to question.


In a word: hogwash.

I neither take things at face value nor refuse to ask questions. What you are accusing me of is exactly what you are doing. Each time some piece of gossip is refuted, you say OK, but what about this other bit, then when that one is debunked and the next and the next, all dredged up like the bits of Halloween candy still left in the bottom of the bag in March, you get back to the original question and start all over again.

A man of honest demeanor or of dishonest deameanor doesn't have to prove his innocence. His accusers have to prove his guilt.

Did you actually have a brain connected somehow to the fingers that are typing this drivel. What does this sentence mean?

Why go to such lengths to hide what isn't there?

Nothing is hidden because nothing is there. How can he show you nothing? It isn't his job to show you nothing, it is your job to show him something.

You are demanding that Obama prove his innocence against unfounded allegations, when it is YOU who must provide proof of his guilt. That is un-American, IMHO, no matter how much you squeal about that judgement.

Simple logic dictates that if there was anything going on, 2 years of a nasty party primary schedule and a federal election would have uncovered it.

As long as the neo-McCarthyists keep spreading FUD, Americans will continue to be distracted from the important issues.



posted on Jul, 31 2009 @ 09:07 AM
link   
reply to post by whatukno
 





Whatukno: In this game of yours you haven't spent one point in trying to argue a side, instead you have tried to invoke an emotional response out of people. Fine, your not a birther as it is stated. What is your stake in this drama?


If you read that post you link to, you'll notice how I came into the thread to comment on how easily people are played against each other by the new term 'birther', the left - right paradigm, etc. Useless name calling and division tactics that don't serve anyone other than those who benefit from our endless bickering.

Then I joined the speculation, and I wondered if it might be something else on his original BC that he may not want to become public knowledge, because as I've stated, that article on factcheck.org was pretty convincing to me.

BTW, do we agree that there is a document in Hawaii that's 'more official' than the computer printout referencing that original document, the one that Health Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino has seen? I think that is the one the people want to see based on two assumptions:

1 - The COLB Obama presented was a forgery (which I think has been clearly debunked)
2 - Anyone can get a birth certificate saying that they're born in Hawaii (which doesn't make sense at all and to my knowledge also has been debunked

So then there's the argument that Obama doesn't need to comply to these people's demands since their demands seems to be based on whatever they can find or fabricate, which holds some water. But there's also the argument that this is issue is now hurting the country and perhaps Obama can be the better man and just show it to them so that we can move on to more serious issues.

I think he's not doing that because this is a good distraction from the policies being forged in Washington, but then you already know that I don't trust him and the government in general. I don't believe they're up their in Washington for our good, or that they don't play silly games of distraction.

Then, I figured this issue may very well be a psy op, or in other words being pushed on both sides for the purpose of division and distraction, and pointed out how easily people in this thread have fallen for it and jumped on the name-calling bandwagon.

Did I do that to get a rise out of people? I'd have better results with the actual name-calling, like in the OP or this post. Anyway, to wrap this up: I think Obama was born in Hawaii, and I think this issue will remain around for a while as it's a great distraction and division mechanism.

I understand the emotions on both sides of the debate, but in the end I think we'd be better off in trying to not generalize and box people, in general.



posted on Jul, 31 2009 @ 02:21 PM
link   

Originally posted by Psynarchist
So then there's the argument that Obama doesn't need to comply to these people's demands since their demands seems to be based on whatever they can find or fabricate, which holds some water. But there's also the argument that this is issue is now hurting the country and perhaps Obama can be the better man and just show it to them so that we can move on to more serious issues.


How thinly veiled. "i am not taking sides but....I want him to show proof to shut other people up and I am in this thread arguing against people who do not need to see it because I want us all to get along, blah blah blah."

Your words belie your, well other words. The thing hurting this country is this straw man argument. If people like you were not claiming that he needs to do it shut people like you up, there would be no argument. The people that do not doubt that he was born in Hawaii are not fighting to prove anything, just trying to point out how wrong the 'birthers' are. Then we have people like you who insist that you do not claim he was born in Kenya but..........

Nice try. If you stop demanding he show and all your other little fox news friends stop demanding he show it, this would go away. People like you are all over ATS keeping this crap up all while trying to convince the rest of us that you do not feel that way or believe those things at all. So you do or do not believe he was born in Hawaii? If yes, then let it go or try to shut the birthers up, otherwise you are just one of them. Sorry.



posted on Jul, 31 2009 @ 02:41 PM
link   
reply to post by Psynarchist
 


The bigger problem is he has shown a certified legal copy of his COLB, which by Hawaiian law is good enough to prove ones birth. As I have conveniently pointed out in Hawaiian statutes.

And because it is legal proof of birth and as good as the original copy. It goes to prove that Hawaii is indeed the birthplace of Obama therefore, the issue is not whether or not Obama was born in Hawaii, the issue now is, what are the REAL motives behind the Birthers.

Unlike some on this board, when this question arose, I asked more questions. I then researched into the topic at hand and dug to find the truth of the matter. Some who believe this fallacy haven't bothered to look past WND as their only source of information on this topic, which is sad because it shows a level of ignorance and incompetence even by some more astute people.

When Hawaiian statutes tell us that the COLB is a valid legal document indicating that the person whom which it is written for was born in Hawaii and thus enjoys Jus Soli of Natural born citizenship status. The matter seems to me closed.

But there are those that will of course continue to pursue this insane theory without question. The question then becomes WHY? Obviously if the information that Obama initially gave is correct and Hawaii supports his claims that he was born there. Than if one continues to forge on in a obviously insane and undignified way towards an end that won't come. It is safe to assume that these people's motives aren't that of people wanting to know the truth. But people with sinister ulterior motives.

It could easily be purely political hatred. Or it could be about more bigoted and racist means. Certainly when a poster implies that Obama may have spent his spring break at a terrorist training camp it cries out bigotry.

I don't suppose that the matter will ever be resolved. As I am just one person against apparently hundreds of thousands of birthers. As such I doubt seriously that I can go far to change all of their minds no matter how much evidence I bring forward to show my point.



posted on Jul, 31 2009 @ 03:53 PM
link   
reply to post by evil incarnate
 


We are on a conspiracy topic website, in a thread about Obama's birth certificate, so I should be able to speculate and discuss this topic in here.
A couple pages back I already decided that the factcheck.org link to pictures of his COLB were pretty damn convincing to me. A couple more pages and more 'birther' arguments debunked, I started to conclude that there may not be anything wrong with his eligibility to begin with, and that this is being pushed with psy op purposes, probably by both sides of the debate. Then you threw me in with the 'birthers' and now you're saying I quickly changed my stance, whatever. I'm not on any side in this debate. I'm not gonna say yes or no to whether he was born in Hawaii like some of the loons on either side of this debate, because simply I wasn't there. Can't be sure, so I'm not gonna scream at anyone as if I was. As I've stated over and over again, I couldn't care less who's president; haven't voted once in my life. I did however wonder about whether there was big trouble on the horizon for the US, or whether it's merely a media psy op for distractive and dividing purposes.

I've adjusted my beliefs accordingly and made my preliminary conclusion, and didn't have to call anybody any names in the process.



evil incarnate: "...all your other little fox news friends..."


Check my signature to see just how wrong about me you are.


[edit on 31-7-2009 by Psynarchist]



posted on Jul, 31 2009 @ 07:10 PM
link   
reply to post by Psynarchist
 


Sorry but you sound like all the cowardly reps that keep answering that question with "I don't know." You know as well as I do that you either know, or you have doubts. There are only two sides here. You say you do not know, keeping it an open question. It is not open here, I know. See the difference?

by the way, if that 'name' really offended you, I am so sorry. I keep forgetting how fragile many here can be.



posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 09:28 PM
link   
as far as I have found out that Hawaii isn't even legally an American state, or territory. So if all of you Obama hate freaks want a real loop hole I would go down that path, rather than worry about any other element of the whole birht cert thing....
But I doubt you will want to risk loosing Hawaii back to it's real owners.



new topics

top topics



 
21
<< 11  12  13    15 >>

log in

join