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CALLING ALL MILITARY! Former and current!

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posted on Jul, 28 2009 @ 07:10 AM
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In order for the US Military to turn against the people, TPTB know that telling the military to just "Shoot those unarmed men/women/children" over there will not work.


The military, in order to be turned against the people, will be fed some BS about how the unarmed man/woman/child is in fact a terrorist, a hardened, wanted and armed terrorist whose aim is to bring down the US and murder people.


Okay, people can sit here and say they would never fall for it. That's easy to do, and is the rational thing.


But when you are taking orders from superiors, who tell you to kill someone who you are told is a 'terrorist' and an 'enemy', you would rarely question that, because you are taught to obey orders in a disciplined modern military and be a disciplined soldier who does not question authority.


The person in question you are told to kill being by chance a fellow American may not register, let alone that they are unarmed and is in fact a civillian.


And why should it, when you trust implicitly, and without reservation, the military echelons and the power above of which you serve, something tht you have to do to be in the military.


What I'm saying is, is that there maybe a good many well-intended people in the military, not only in the US but beyond, who if TSHTF would commit heinous acts under the mistaken belief that what they were doing was acceptable because it was a given order by authorities they trust.


And of course you have the bad apples too.


Hopefully, individual awareness comes into play, where a soldier, given a highly questionable order, will realise it for what it is, and refuses to obey.


I hope, I hope, that this soldier would not be in the minority.




posted on Jul, 28 2009 @ 07:13 AM
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Wow, I am going to copy a post here what I posted in another thread.


As a soldier in the United States Army my duty is to follow my orders as well as think on my own and follow the seven Army Values. Loyalty Duty Respect Honor Integrity and Personal Courage.

Loyalty
Bear true faith and allegiance to the U.S. CONSTITUTION, the Army, and other soldiers.
Be loyal to the NATION and its heritage.

Duty
Fulfill your obligations.
Accept responsibility for your own actions and those entrusted to your care.
Find opportunities to improve oneself for the good of the group.

Respect
Rely upon the golden rule.
How we consider others reflects upon each of us, both personally and as a professional organization.

Selfless Service
Put the welfare of the NATION, the Army, and your subordinates before your own.
Selfless service leads to organizational teamwork and encompasses discipline, self-control and faith in the system.

Honor
Live up to all the Army values.

Integrity
Do what is right, legally and morally.
Be willing to do what is right even when no one is looking.
It is our "moral compass" an inner voice.

Personal Courage
Our ability to face fear, danger, or adversity, both physical and moral courage.

In my normal everyday life I do my best to abide by the seven army values. I try not to have a big ego and always morally do the right thing. I know that I would never harm an American Citizen nor would my fellow soldiers. If it's against the United States Constitution or not morally right I will not do it, nor would any other United States Soldier. I do not feel that I have been brainwashed of any sort, nor have I seen it.

I work for you the people of the United States of America, not terrorists.


[edit on 7/28/2009 by jca2005]



posted on Jul, 28 2009 @ 07:14 AM
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As a former Soldier and an Iraqi War Vet, I would not turn my weapons on any American Civilian, Nor would I Idle sit by as they are rounded up or slaughtered by Foreign Forces. Lets face it No American would so who would they bring in to do it? Foreign troops.



posted on Jul, 28 2009 @ 07:17 AM
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As a Vet you better remember one thing that I learned that I use to this day.

Lead, Follow, or get the Hell out of the way.

If things start to happen, it will be hard to hold us back from protecting our Constitution and to keep this a free nation under God.



posted on Jul, 28 2009 @ 07:23 AM
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Me, as a current military member, if an unlawful order was given, or even a lawful one that seemed too entirely wrong was given, i would turn. i will not herd with the rest of the "sheep" and do whatever orders my command give me. i have a conscious, and a brain, and i will use it. even if it means i will be in prison for the rest of my life. remember, our founding fathers were the same way, they turned against the king, for things that were done to them that they saw was wrong. and what are they called now? patriots!



posted on Jul, 28 2009 @ 07:32 AM
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You can be absolutely sure that the military will be placed in a position where it is 'attacked'.

It will be told - don't fire - the 'attackers' will be govt paid - they will be agents. The military will suffer casualties, they will be embarrassed - they will feel like they are the victims - the government agents will spit on them, taunt them.

When this has happened a few times - they will be finally allowed to return fire - and they WILL kill innocent people.

Don't think for a second that the mind control and propaganda engine will not be deployed with full force in the military - they will be abused, embarrassed and goaded - until they will literally kill anyone for any reason.

Mind control and propaganda - are the ultimate weapons.



posted on Jul, 28 2009 @ 07:37 AM
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Originally posted by Angelsoftheapocalypse
Me, as a current military member, if an unlawful order was given, or even a lawful one that seemed too entirely wrong was given, i would turn. i will not herd with the rest of the "sheep" and do whatever orders my command give me. i have a conscious, and a brain, and i will use it. even if it means i will be in prison for the rest of my life. remember, our founding fathers were the same way, they turned against the king, for things that were done to them that they saw was wrong. and what are they called now? patriots!


We call them patriots, but FEMA considers the founding fathers terrorists..

Me, being from the 1991 Gulf War era, US Army, I would stand with my fellow civilians and defend the US Constitution.



posted on Jul, 28 2009 @ 07:48 AM
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Your question "would i turn on my brothers" is vague, so i can not answer it. But i will say, that i will not obey any order given, that is not a legal order.



posted on Jul, 28 2009 @ 07:50 AM
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The military in general will do as it's told. They will not be given orders to 'take out those patriotic Americans'. They will be manipulated and lied to in order to make them think they are fighting to protect America from some made up threat.

We've all seen the documents showing how our government views ex-military, defenders of the constitution, third party supporters, etc... as potential terrorists and a threat. The threat is actually to them, not the United States. Their power is threatened and they will do whatever they can to retain that power.

I think many of our military people who are posed the question 'would you fire on Americans' misunderstand the intent behind it. We are not asking if given the order to mow down innocent Americans, would you. We are asking that when the propaganda is cranked up and you are told that those filthy UN-AMERICAN 'domestic terrorists' are organizing an armed rebellion, would you follow orders to go in and disarm them? If those people decided to defend themselves from a hopelessly corrupt government, who you are now acting as the oppressor for, what would you do? Would you just turn around and go home? I doubt it very much. You will follow orders and blood will be shed. It doesn't matter who fires the first shot, just that it will be shot.

Will you see through the propaganda?

Of course an individual will say that they will not fire on Americans, but group mentality, pressure from command, lies, propaganda, and quite possibly a situation set up where you are given no option will play out differently than you might have wanted.

Here's a scenario. The economy is trashed. The people finally wake up. Major protests all over America. The whole country is not rioting, but cases of civil unrest and disobedience are increasing. Militias are preparing. Talk of revolution is in the air.

The President thinks to himself... Damn, the s*** is hitting the fan. I have to stop this. His speeches don't go over well. The people are pissed and want him out, along with all the other crooks. He knows he can not just order the military to take out the protesters. It's illegal and immoral and would most likely backfire.

So what to do?

Start TALKING of using the military. Go on tv and talk and talk and talk of using the military to patrol the streets. TALK of bringing them in to disarm militias. Talk it up every chance he gets of how the military will need to be used to quell dissent. WHY? Because this sets the people up to view the military as the enemy as soon as they see them coming.

At the same time, military personnel are propagandized to view legitimate dissent as dangerous to the safety and security of America. They are told how the dangerous armed militias are organizing. They are told how the very survival of America is in danger. Just keep banging it into their heads on being prepared to 'protect America' from these people. ANY news that can be used to portray protesters, militias, etc... negatively will be sensationalized. ANY negative talk of the military by these groups will be used. (remember, they have been conditioned to view the military as the enemy)

You now have two groups, the people and the military, not trusting each other.

Civil unrest really increases, the police are overwhelmed.

A false flag or two, call in the military, let the bloodshed begin. As I said earlier... It doesn't matter who fires the first shot, but be sure that it will be fired. Neither side may have wanted it, but TPTB will ensure that it happens if they want it to.

The question should be ..how long will they kill each other until both sides realize they've been had?

[edit on 28-7-2009 by Primordial]



posted on Jul, 28 2009 @ 08:00 AM
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Originally posted by Moshpet
The other thing is, riot control, anti-looting operations, peace keeping and similar actions are with in the legal realm of orders that would have to be obeyed.

If a mob attacked the soldiers under those conditions, they would be justified in defending themselves. A mob has no conscious and is more like a wild animal, there would likely be deaths and injuries as an 'organized' group defended themselves against an untrained mob.

Would the soldiers be at fault during those kind of operations? No.

The other side of the coin naturally is what becomes an illegal order?

If say in the course of breaking up a riot, a commander orders an all out assault using belt fed weapons tanks and so on. When lesser force will accomplish the same task; then it becomes an illegal order.

Now if the same mob had significant firepower and were giving the commander and troops sufficient cause to think their lives were in jeopardy, an all out attack in self defense is a legal order. However, once the threat was stopped, any further use of force would be criminal.

Now as for herding folks at gun point to line them up and shoot them, just for population control.... No, I really doubt any of our troops would willingly join in. The sane ones anyway. There are always some nut jobs who would do it if they could get away with it.

Basically as long as the mission is peace keeping and so on, and their lives are not threatened, I don't think any of our troops would need to fire their guns. But there is always the likelihood of some dolt with a gun 'starting something' on either side.

M.



[edit on 27-7-2009 by Moshpet]



These are the most thought-provoking comments on that issue thus far...

That the relativities involved in the problem leave way too much latitude for unaccounted abuse of power.

At which point the soldiers start or stop feeling threatened? And how can they get to refuse following orders if there is no strong consensus on how threatening the situation is?

As I understand it, it all copmes down to interpret the Law, which usually falls within the hands of the nearest authority in the case of uncertainty. So a handful of soldiers could end up being ordered to shott down a crowd of mostly unarmed civilians and they would follow given relativistic reasons like these people looking violent, or a few of these carrying molotovs, or most soldiers just feeling threatened in a particular tense situation...

To me, as long as the military is separated from "civilians" there is a likelyhood that soldiers would end up doing the worst, most nightmarish things imaginable to civilians, even the ones who are the closest. Although I did'nt went to the army, I observed for years as a sociologist the social dangers of division, and submission to authority.

Just take a look at History... the most murderous organizations always ended up to be the ones who had the monopoly of violence. When these organizations are so detached from the people in their structure, by being separated from the everyday life of other civilians, and is following the commands from an elite that is even more socially detached, then anything can go, sadly...

If you want a bleak but enlightened reflection on that disturbing issue, read "Obedience to Authority" by Stanley Milgram, that just managed to prove that within any authoritarian relation, the worst, most thoughtless and unhuman acts of repression can be conducted by the most common people, even the ones with the best "moral" background.

lt's not about US soldiers being idiots or murderous zombies, it's about how they are conditionned into becoming like this into some specific situations of high pressure, when they will see the most gruesome and despotic acts of repression as the "right" thing to do. No matter how good individuals they can be, they are programmed to be total fascist dogs.

Still I'd like to read more on the views of military people on the question...


[edit on 28/7/09 by Echtelion]



posted on Jul, 28 2009 @ 08:08 AM
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Four years USN here.

I would not follow said orders. Most soldiers know when they get an unlawful order. An officer on my ship once told me to erase an entry in a log and I told him I could not do that and everyone else in the room jumped in and agreed. It was not erased and we told our Chief what had happened and he got pissed at the officer who said it and said officer got a dressing down.

However that being said there are just as many bad apples with scores to settle in the military as there are anywhere else in life. I did hear an officer once refer to enlisted as "Cows" that are there to serve his whims and anyone who had not gone to college was basically scum.



posted on Jul, 28 2009 @ 08:10 AM
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part two

if people are in the military i think they should read two books:
rule by secrecy by jim marrs
and william bramley's gods of eden (from amazon). if i was in it, i would want to know the information contained in these books - whether i chose to believe it or not. it just explains who the leaders really are, and the history of warfare - and how wars really come about.

also interesting is part two of a david icke interview at this link. part two is relevant to wars/leaders etc. the rest is probably a bit much for many people to digest; but part two is worth the watch, even for his skeptics.



posted on Jul, 28 2009 @ 08:25 AM
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Was it not National Guard units that went house to house in New Orleans taking away the guns of citizens? Was that NOT UNCONSTITUTIONAL?

No, most current US military would not attack us civilians unprovoked.

I believe our troops are in Iraq and Afghanistan so that they CANNOT defend the US.

If the SHTF you can count on Blackwater (Xe) playing a major role as 5th column agents impersonating national Guard, Homeland Security, current Armed forces etc. Their job will be to spread mistrust until no-one knows "who IS the enemy".

Finally, how many Chinese troops could fit on one of those big container ships? How many of those ships are there? What nation has the MOST VESTED INTEREST in what happens to America?



posted on Jul, 28 2009 @ 08:27 AM
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There seems to be two schools of thought in this thread. Those who have actually worn, or are wearing, the uniform seem close to unanimous in saying that they would not carry out illegal orders. I am one of these. The other school of thought, and this is not an attack, merely an observation, is that the military will be 'suckered' into doing the bidding of TPTB. The second school 'has a feeling', or says, 'read this book', 'watch this vid'. With all due respect, we know ourselves better than those who have 'read', or what others 'feel' we may do. We have been to places where we know how we will react under stress, because we have had to make choices, not all earth-shattering, but enough to override the 'theory' that others may have. This isn't a 'better than you' position, just one that replaces theory and supposition with reality.



posted on Jul, 28 2009 @ 08:34 AM
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reply to post by ManBehindTheMask
 

After 3 years in the Coast Guard I was taken aside and told that I was unsuitable for military life (I think that means I think for myself) and was offered an honorable discharge. My reply was that I could have told them that when they sent me my draft notice and saved us both a world of hassle.

SO I am not the person to ask though I am proud of my service.

That being said...as all military will tell you the whole point of basic training is to get you to react now and think later...its the only way to get an otherwise sane person to run to combat as opposed to run from it.

So I don't know...I would like to think the kids serving now would say no...

but when I was in there was far more of a question authority attitude in society than there is now.


[edit on 28-7-2009 by grover]



posted on Jul, 28 2009 @ 08:35 AM
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reply to post by ManBehindTheMask
 


The problem with this is that the military gets so many people of low education, not all, but a lot, who are barely high school graduates, who do not know the Constitution either.

In this day and age of X-Box 360 and Playstation, and Movies-On-Demand, how many soldiers do you honestly think are accepted into the military who know the difference between right and wrong, who know what an acceptable order is or is not, or know our Constitution and know that they are in a role to stand for that living document, and not act against it?

My thought on this, is that there are too many people without the proper education, who do not understand that refusing to obey a direct order, that may be in direct opposition of the Constitution, is a good thing.

The military instills into you that you have to follow orders.

The military instills into you that to disobey a direct order is tantamount to being a Communist.

The military instills in you that your commanding officer knows what is best for you.

Remember, the Drill Sergeant's role is to break you down, psychologically, and in every way, so that he can build you back up how the military wants you.

Are you powerful enough to break that indoctrination?

I know I am, I know no others who can say the same, and I was raised by a Marine and I am former military.

For those who made the comments about the Uniform Code of Military Justice, just how many soldiers do you think or know who actually knows that inside and out and understands the complexities of the military jargon within it?

Not enough people in our society know or understand legalese, let alone policy, procedure, and protocol.

[edit on 28-7-2009 by SpartanKingLeonidas]



posted on Jul, 28 2009 @ 08:35 AM
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Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
So here it is: USAF, USMC, NAVY, Coast Guard, US ARMY, all reservists , all vets and current military, WOULD YOU if ordered by the United States government, turn on your brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers and friends...on your COUNTRY , If the order was given to do so? Or would you fight back against TPTB, to protect our sovereignty and people from tyranny?


US Army vet reporting in!


- They can't order me to do anything. I'm past my 6 year enlistment time.
- I'm too old and broken down to carry out anything they could try to push.
- I'd 'turn on' those who were completely lawless in my opinion ... like in Katrina when people were shooting at the hospital workers ....
- I would probably be one of the first killed off by the NWO so I don't think I'd be around to help protect soverignty.



posted on Jul, 28 2009 @ 08:43 AM
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As a former member of the British armed forces,I could safely say that should the unthinkable ever happen the vast majority of UK military personnel would take the moral rather than the legislative course of action,this is a point that I have personally discussed with fellow members of the forces in the past and the overwhelming consensus was that we would turn our guns on the "masters" if ordered to round up/fire upon the British civilian population in a non war scenario.



posted on Jul, 28 2009 @ 08:43 AM
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reply to post by Viking04
 


I guess I am one of those you refer to who believe the military will be tricked.

Let me clarify. I don't mean it to sound like I think the military are a bunch of dumb fools who will be hoodwinked into killing innocent people. What I do believe is that propaganda will play out on both sides then a situation will arise, or be set up, that will be conducive to violence.

Our leaders know the military oaths and know our soldiers are good men. If they want to use them on Americans, they will come up with a plan to do it. Though our leaders act stupid they are not. Governments have used their own armies of good men to commit terrible acts. They were no better or worse than our men and women. People are people and are still susceptible to the same manipulations that have worked for centuries. Our concern is if the military will see it for what it is and how far will they go before declaring enough is enough.

Sorry if you took my original post to mean I believe our men and women in the military are stupid or gullible. Not so. I just think they are capable of being manipulated just like anyone else.



posted on Jul, 28 2009 @ 09:11 AM
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3 words

"kent state ohio"

That's a military situation using national guard. 4 dead.

Historically speaking, it goes without saying that a soldier will do what a soldier is ordered to do.

you won't turn on your family, but you will turn on your neighbours family who you don't know and don't care about.

It will be some other platoon member that turns on your family, and he won't know them, or care about them and he'll believe what his co has told him about them and how dangerous they are and that they should be shot on sight.



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