If 4th Beast=America then that supposes USA would trample Israel, which is unlikely?

First off, I'm not a Christian but I'm deeply looking into biblical stuff for a research project.

The 4th Beast of Daniel and Revelations are both connected to "waging war on the saints" for the latter half of the 7 year tribulation. This connects to the war that is meant to break out focused on Israel. From the 4th beast there is a world leader who breaks some sort of initially peacable "friendship" with Israel...many people think the word "covenant" as in making a 7 year covenant /agreement relates to some official treaty that's worked out but "covenant" can simply mean "extending the hand of friendship , being peacable".

I've read some pretty convincing discussion to suggest the 4th Beast is America (along with the UN) ...then when you read how the 4th beast has some sidekick with 2 horns like a lamb who exercises all the authority of the beast "in its presence" and how this 2-horned beast who helps the big beast is meant to be a MAN rather than a nation or political entity then it does make one think of the president.....lamb-like horns suggest relatively fledgling power rather than someone/something who has been around a long time and the two horns could (to my mind) represent this figure running two terms of office.

The 4th beast is clearly a world super-power in the last days. There are good arguments for it being either (A) the USA, (B) The UN as a sort of world-government type set up or (C) A combination of both

Anyhow, the point I have trouble with is that IF this beast IS America then that would mean that prophecy points to America TURNING ON ISRAEL by (A) breaking friendly relations mid tribulation then (b) being somehow involved in trampling them down/waging war during the great tribulation. The USA is Israel's ally though, no ??

Can anyone really imagine America becoming the enemy of Israel and supporting the Russian (Gog-Magog) invasion?!!! It doesn't seem likely, does it ???
If you can imagine such a scenario though please explain why you think this could be possible.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts

reply to post by cosmicpixie


I feel more that the EU is the final beast. This fits well with Daniel's statue--the feet of iron and clay. As I remember, the final beast is supposed to be like the beast that came before it, which was the Roman Empire.

Can anyone really imagine America becoming the enemy of Israel and supporting the Russian (Gog-Magog) invasion?!!! It doesn't seem likely, does it ???

If America is the final beast, it wouldn't support the Russian Invasion of Israel. The final empire would, at the end of the war, come to Israel's aid, making the treaty with it. Beyond that, I find it highly unlikely that America would turn on Israel too. There are too many people in America that are supporting Israel and trying to bless that area. And God said that he wouldn't ever afflict those that support his people, and affliction and destruction is the only thing that comes upon those that deal with Israel in the end times.

[edit on 7/27/2009 by octotom]

Originally posted by cosmicpixie
...that prophecy points to America TURNING ON ISRAEL ...The USA is Israel's ally though, no ??
Can anyone really imagine America becoming the enemy of Israel...?!!! It doesn't seem likely, does it ???
If you can imagine such a scenario though please explain why you think this could be possible.

You don't have to imagine anything. Take a look at what is going on with Clinton and the negotiations with Bebe Netanyahu vis-a-vis the settlements and Iran. America - at least the current administration - IS turning against Israel. Google "Israel newspaper" or "Jewish news" (or the like). Look at what the Israeli newspapers are saying. They have already figured out what is going on.

P.S. If I get the chance, I'll send some specific links, but I'll have to look them up later.

I totally support Russia, China, And Iran; as they are constantly having to deal with the antagonistic US, and Israel.

Now that's been said, We US Tax payers fund Israel almost entirely. AIPAC controls most of the US govt., and many politicians have dual nationality with Israel.

Any prophecies dealing with "Revelations", or any other of the armeggeddon(Sp) type Christian books, I believe are propagated by War mongers in the US, and Israel............ To enrage the Christian masses into fever for 'heaven'.... Christianity=death cult run by Zion.

Why does Israel = Saints?

Originally posted by sanchoearlyjones
I totally support Russia, China, And Iran; as they are constantly having to deal with the antagonistic US, and Israel.

Boy oh boy. I really hope that was said in sarcasm. If it was, it was so subtle and slick that I missed it - I took it for face value.

If it wasn't, I can introduce you to some people that escaped from the Soviet Union and China (in the old days - I admit it's not as bad now). They can tell you some stories about labor camps and relatives disappearing and such. But again, I hope you were being facetious to get a point across and not really trying to state - without mockery - that Iran, Russia and China are a much more peaceful and respectful nations of human rights than the U.S. or Israel.

reply to post by cosmicpixie

Anyhow, the point I have trouble with is that IF this beast IS America then that would mean that prophecy points to America TURNING ON ISRAEL by (A) breaking friendly relations mid tribulation then (b) being somehow involved in trampling them down/waging war during the great tribulation. The USA is Israel's ally though, no ??

They seemed to be pre-Obama. Now I'm really not that sure. I really got a feeling that Obama is going to abandon Israel and convince his followers in Congress to do likewise.

reply to post by passenger


I really really do support those nations over Israel, and The States. As you pointed out the atrocities of old, and the beginnings of the new. Those countries are changing. They are leading the way to a better future right now.

The States, UK, Israel, and others are 'seeming' to go down a dark path... Most just cannot see it.

I didn't just dream up what I've said, as I've talked to several people from the old "eastern block". Many of the ones I know routinely state that 'back home' is getting better, and in the States, freedoms are eroding........and fast.

I absolutely think the degree of manipulation regarding the Christian death cult is enormous. Considering around 80%+ of the US pop. is Christian, I'd think it would make the most intelligent question why so many religious, political, and MSM feed the 'prophecies' regarding russia, and china being gog, and magog.

Christians as a whole are the sheeple. Give them a reason with 'shade' of moral reasoning, and I do believe they'd slit their own children's throats...............after all Abraham was going to.

Accept in part, deny in part.

Originally posted by sanchoearlyjones
The States, UK, Israel, and others are 'seeming' to go down a dark path... Most just cannot see it... and in the States, freedoms are eroding........and fast.

Agree in whole.

Originally posted by sanchoearlyjones
Christians as a whole are the sheeple. Give them a reason with 'shade' of moral reasoning, and I do believe they'd slit their own children's throats...

And the Soviets and Nazis did not? Big denial here. I think the problem is you are confusing the labels with the actual manifestation. That is, any ideology or belief that becomes rabid enough becomes dangerous. It doesn't make a difference if it's theological or secular. When people start to believe that their way of thinking is the only 'correct' way then throat-slitting ensues. Religion has no monopoly on that. Don't forget all the children that sent their own parents, and vice-versa, to the Gulags and gas-chambers.

First Cosmic Pixie let me say congradulations on the new arrival!

Second you must have forgotten Rome wrote the Bible.

(most people do)

Third you must not have watched the God Father II, another zany Italian story, or the addage...

"Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"

Trust me when I say (visit CIA.GOV Freedom of information act on just what the CIA thought about Israel when it first declared independence) Israel is not the United States friend.

Never has been never will be...because you really do keep your friends close and your enemies closer!

When in Rome!

Do as the Romans do and trust me, you are in Rome!

Hail Caesar.

reply to post by passenger


No confusion here. I agree that the Russians way screwed up in early 20th century. The bolsheviks took over a righteous quazi rebelion, and turned the country upside down with facist communism.........disagree, and die...as 100's of millions did. They should have stood up before the New York backed Bolsheviks gained the complete upper hand.

The original unrest worked completely to what the majority of the people wanted; which was for the czar to give in, and create a parliment...people's voice. The Czar complied, and then wham, the people did nothing about the radical Bolsheviks. They suffered for a long time; as the US American people will.

I didn't compare anything to the Nazi's. My thoughts on what exactly happened there are still 'out'. WW2 was a twisted power play of the Elites/PTB as all wars are. There were several underlying things there...............

I think Germany is right in with the US, UK, and Israel.... As it is the seat/capital of the EU. Mr. Tony B.Liar getting ready to be crowned the king of it all.

Again, no confusion, and not trying to rate societies as a whole. I think the PTB do in many ways, change their geographical areas.......I think it is a battle between good, and evil; in a spiritual sense.

Again, the PTB/NWO/Elite have settled on the States, UK, Germany, Israel, and a few other countries............ I think that Russia, China, Iran, NAM, and SCO countries are waking to the threat, or final moves of the NWO.

For example as US Americans are being forced into smart growth urban cities.... Russia is moving all their people out into smart growth rural living.

Long story short, no confusion, no 'peoples' are better, but some need to wake up from the Death cults; is all.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


That photo was taken nearly 6 years ago when he was born - no new arrival ! I don't actually want any more children with the things I think are planned for this world.....

BADMEDIA- I guess I presumed the "saints" were the people the God of the Bible views as his chosen lot, specifically connected to Israel as the tribulation is meant to culminate in terrible war on Israel with the Lord coming to save the day in some sort of almighty was on Earth...this trampling down of the saints/holy ones for 42 months mentioned several times seems logically tied to Israel's coming "persecution"...but I might be wrong. Who do you think "The Saints" are that get trampled on 42 months , ie in the latter half of the 7 year tribulation?

Having read some more last night the 4th Kingdom of Daniel does seem like Rome with the Beast in revelation therefore being the "revived" Roman empire, ie the EU....Rome "fell" (mortal head wound ) only to be revived again centuries later. The beast in Revelation also has power over all tribes of the world- America is a superpower, yes, but does not have the same clout as the EU does in terms of world power and the combined military resources of the EU would dwarf America's capabilities? Also the beast is connected to the "mark of the beast" and "image of the beast"....the new prototype world currency has a design reflecting all 5 continents of the world "joining together"...very much a UN concept. What begins as a coin could morph into a monetary system that is micro-chip related. It all ties in.

which would suggest the "evil" figurehead who "exercises power in its presence" might be some figurehead with a high profile UN position.........people say Solana fits the bill but apparantly he is retiring this October , so someone new would be on the scene but some think he will go after a higher-powered position again. The person with two horns ENCOURAGES the world to accept the image of the beast and the mark of the beast...who else but the UN could enforce that kind of thing ?

If the EU is this 4th beast then the man with 2 horns that exerices power in it's presence would surely have to be someone directly connected to the EU in terms of the position held...he wouldn't be a president of a nation, it would be someone who exercises full EU powers.......?

reply to post by cosmicpixie


As alluded above in a couple of posts would our last gloriouse leader Saint Tony of Blair not fit the bill for the beast with two horns.

The first horn being when he was prime minister and did so much good for us here in the UK - Iraq, Afghanistan, New Taxes........

the second horn will be when he takes his new position with the EU and leads us all to the promised land.

Bang
Oh crap I just broke my sarcasm detector.

Originally posted by cosmicpixie

Anyhow, the point I have trouble with is that IF this beast IS America then that would mean that prophecy points to America TURNING ON ISRAEL by (A) breaking friendly relations mid tribulation then (b) being somehow involved in trampling them down/waging war during the great tribulation. The USA is Israel's ally though, no ??

Can anyone really imagine America becoming the enemy of Israel and supporting the Russian (Gog-Magog) invasion?!!! It doesn't seem likely, does it ???
If you can imagine such a scenario though please explain why you think this could be possible.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts

AHHH, you've made some good observations. But the problem is your assumption that the literal nation of Israel are the saints the bible is referring to.

One thing we should be aware of and the Bible makes it emphatically Clear, History repeats itself and human beings always make the same mistakes over and over again.

It is why Christ repeatedly tells us "Just like in the days of Noah, so shall also the Coming of the Son of man be" or "just like the days of Lot" etc.

With that being said, look at the popular religious leaders of Jesus time ( Sanhedrin ), and see how they had it all wrong, even though they had the Prophets and the Scripture (OT) and they still couldn't see that Jesus was the Messiah.

And So likewise, The popular religious leaders of the end times will also get it wrong, EVEN THOUGH they had the Old and New Testament to guide them.

You look at our country today and we are seeing the stepping stones to Christian Persecution in our country. Illegal wire taps, the apathy and indifference toward TORTURE, the failing Economy, the push for socialism and expansion of Government.

All these things accumulate to one thing, the persecution of the True Remnant of God, and from my study of the bible, they're not located in that little piece of land in the Middle East.



[edit on 28-7-2009 by Shortness]

It is not 'unlikely', as the plan all along has been to have the world against Israel, not at first, I am sure the US will be instrumental in the war against islam, and if you have read, WWIII is meant to wipe out both muslims and jews.
My take is that there will be civil war in America. Probably Christian vs non christian. And full war in the middle east will break out, featuring the EU led by Deutschland on guitar, US Israel Britain on vocals, Iran on drums, Russia on bass. When things get desperate and thinned out Israel will be divulged their part in the 9-11 false flag (I say this because it is the only thing I can think of that would turn everyone against Israel), and seeing themselves in the corner, will release nukes in all direction, and of course then they will be annihilated too.
And with all in shambles people disillusioned with religion false alien invasion or something happens? And people will be rallied under the antichrist to repel...
Or something along those lines

reply to post by Ridhya


There doesn't need to be a false alien invasion at the very end when the gods of the bible are promising to return and wipe out all of Israel's enemies and replace the world governments with "divine" (ET ?) rulership. You only have to read about the second coming and Armageddon to realize that is a great description of an alien invasion. There would have to be real occupants in those saucers as well else no-one would buy it. Personally I believe the PTB know full well what is coming and are in on the plan , ready to hand over rule of Earth "to the gods". I think the whole "antichrist" /false messiah part of the equation to be something deliberately set in place by the same gods who will come and "vanquish the enemy"....it's a good war strategy to create an "enemy" so you can ride in on the white horse and "save the world from the evil bunch".

This is just my view though, I know the orthodox view is that Christ and God are divine beings...I don't want to get into a debate about that but just wanted to reply to your comment about alien invasion.

The PTB here on earth have back engineered craft no doubt so "come the day of the lord" they could rally hundreds of drone ships to make it look like they are trying to defend earth from attack, all the while knowing it was a ruse and the aliens will win and take over Earth. They could say how all along they knew the day was coming and that's why they did not disclose the ET/UFO thing as did not want to panic the world as to the real issue. Probably only a very small minority of people in positions of power would be in on the plan, with most thinking that it is either (a) A genuine attack on Earth against which we must defend ourselves otr (B) they are Christian and think it's god come to rescue the world and get rid of Satan's kingdom

With tens of millions dead in WWW3 (planned by the ETs and their sidekicks down here on Earth) and tens of millions more dead through Armageddon then even more deaths in the aftermath when millions of survivors are left and have to choose to "repent" or "accept", we could be looking at a scenario where 2/3 of the world is dead if not more.

Leaves a much more manageable number for the New Atlantis / Garden of Eden. The mark of the beast (chip) could actually be a complete ruse...think about it, if you had a chip you can be tracked. These could be the people who are somehow actually protected from the alien attack when it comes...."raptured" into the air to safety, easily found because they have been chipped. The greys have been chipping people for a long time if you believe the reports and those greys many believe are working for the Draco/reptilians. Every culture on earth has tales of the gods being reptilian looking with the ability to change appearance.

Even if that bunch are not involved I still think the whole thing has been planned and that there is NO "real" saviour coming, it's all a massive takeover plot. They want back what they had millenia ago but have to have a good scourge first and ensure the masses who ARE left alive view them as divine helpers rather than the evil enemy..........

Well I dont believe in aliens - but you are correct on some parts. But you see the 'reptilian' gods could just as easily have been Satanic demons, explains the shapeshifting, lack of compassion, slavery, sacrifices, etc etc.

I believe if the flying saucers are real - I have never seen one - that there ARE occupant just that they are human. I mean Nikola Tesla and the Nazis made them... there is encoded ancient art how to create anti-gravity. It is absurd to claim we human do not have the technology.

I also believe that the bible is not a book of prophecy, but a plan, so when things come true it is not proof of divinity - it is like saying I predict I will slap you! haha

I disagree about the lack of a saviour coming to defeat them, can you not pick up a weapon yourself?

Originally posted by Ridhya

I disagree about the lack of a saviour coming to defeat them, can you not pick up a weapon yourself?

We can't have guns in the UK so I'll have to rely on a good punch or nasty thought beams.
Laughs aside , I doubt we could do much in the face of their technology anyway. As for reptilian thing, it is the god of the Christian Bible who has also been linked to having that appearance and he was portraying himself as "the good guy". Enoch and other texts imply the first human creations had reptilian qualities about their skin and that the creator gods were full blooded reptilians who could appear human if necessary.......but that's all another story and I don't want to derail my own thread too much !

Originally posted by Ridhya
It is not 'unlikely', as the plan all along has been to have the world against Israel, not at first, I am sure the US will be instrumental in the war against islam, and if you have read, WWIII is meant to wipe out both muslims and jews.
My take is that there will be civil war in America. Probably Christian vs non christian. And full war in the middle east will break out, featuring the EU led by Deutschland on guitar, US Israel Britain on vocals, Iran on drums, Russia on bass. When things get desperate and thinned out Israel will be divulged their part in the 9-11 false flag (I say this because it is the only thing I can think of that would turn everyone against Israel), and seeing themselves in the corner, will release nukes in all direction, and of course then they will be annihilated too.
And with all in shambles people disillusioned with religion false alien invasion or something happens? And people will be rallied under the antichrist to repel...
Or something along those lines

You have most of this right but I am on drums. I am always on drums.

The Iranians don't know how to play drums in a rock band!

Let them make the shish-ka-bobs for the breaks! Put their real tallent to use.

I also have it on good authority the Iranians do not belong to the Musicians Union.

The Stage and Lighting and Sound unions will strike!

I'm on drums!

Originally posted by cosmicpixie

Originally posted by Ridhya

I disagree about the lack of a saviour coming to defeat them, can you not pick up a weapon yourself?

We can't have guns in the UK so I'll have to rely on a good punch or nasty thought beams.
Laughs aside , I doubt we could do much in the face of their technology anyway. As for reptilian thing, it is the god of the Christian Bible who has also been linked to having that appearance and he was portraying himself as "the good guy". Enoch and other texts imply the first human creations had reptilian qualities about their skin and that the creator gods were full blooded reptilians who could appear human if necessary.......but that's all another story and I don't want to derail my own thread too much !

Don't let the technology scare you Cosmix Pixie there is a reason they did away with swords and spears and bows and arrows.

The Rothschilds have a real hard time cutting your funding for those in the middle of a campaign to change the outcome!

The supernatural spiritual angle is there to intimidate you too. Higher level beings put their pants on one leg at a time too!

The morallity is there to trick you as well. In all my years on this planet the only religious sect I have seen live any of the text are the ultra strict Amish clans.

Everyone else fails these moral tests and the guilt is a motivator for the powers that be.

Rome wrote the Bible as a plan for one world domination to convince people when technology and logistics could finally pull it off that there is more involved and at stake than just humans, and that 'good' humans will lie down and die and resign themselves to a period of bad, but hey the cavalry will come riding in on white horses just like the Hollywood Movies.

People need to just stand up and fight while they still can and not shrink in the face of what ever comes through the door.

They also need to be very mindful the wolves do and will wear sheeps clothing.

Contractually everyone and everything on the planet right now is in fact bound to Rome. Render on to Caesar what is Caesars.

It is my humble oppinion this is a human plot, made by humans, acted out by humans, for human domination by humans, always has been and always will be and the best way to defeat it is to remember that.

We can beat these people and there is no reason not to try!

Edit to add I am still on drums!



[edit on 28/7/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]