You have every right in the world to whoop ya kid's..PLZ start I am sick of all the punk's

Originally posted by Death_Kron
Oh yeah, forgot to mention Roger... violence is slapping your child on its wrist to prevent it touching an open fire?

Jesus mate, if you controlled the world we would all be in trouble...

The lesson would be better if the kid touched the fire!
He'd know the consiquenses of it better..

When I was younger my dad or my mom disciplined me without whipping
for example when I didn't respect them or something like that they didn't give me money when I needed to go out, I could still go out but it sucked because I was broke and when I made something wrong they told me calmly what i did wrong because if you yell at a little kid it wont listen to you. Or they didn't talk to me so I felt bad.
But I'm from a former communist country maybe that helped because the
teachers were also strict, formal, and their point was that we are there to learn discipline as well as other information.
We respected the elders we still do but now that system is fading very fast.

[edit on 29-7-2009 by defiler]

Originally posted by BarryZuckercorn

Originally posted by jfj123
Is this FINALLY clear enough for you to understand or are you going to continue deliberately misrepresenting what I'm saying?
And
DOES THAT ANSWER YOUR QUESTION?

It seems like you have lost your temper.

Not at all actually. I'm still very angry with parents who don't control their kids. I should be more specific about my rage Parents who refuse to raise their children properly, let loose monsterous teenagers into the world. Those are the ones that I really think do need a whipping (the teenagers and parents).

Let me give you one of many examples regarding teenagers who are not "socialized" to be considerate to others. I was sitting in a diner in a booth behind an elderly couple. The wife was on oxygen. After being there sometime, 4 teenagers came in and sat down on the other side of the elderly couple and promptly started smoking. The elderly woman was about 1 foot from them. The rest of the diner was empty. They had no consideration for the couple. One of which was obviously someone with a breathing problem. They had to walk around the oxygen tank so they KNEW it was there and could easily see the tube leading to her nose. I walked over and politely (I swear to god) mentioned to them what the situation was and asked if they would move. They told me to F-off. HUH? I was very nice and they were clearly causing harm to someone else but they simply didn't care. I again NICELY asked them to either move or put out their cigarettes for the sake of the couple behind them. They just laughed. At this point 2 options clicked in:
1. Move them myself.
2. Talk to management.
Luckily for them I chose 2. I spoke with the manager who gave them 3 options 1. move 2. leave and never come back 3. put out the cigarettes now. They laughed and he explained that if they didn't comply that he would have them arrested for trespassing. They laughed again and ignored them so the police were called and they were hauled out. The entire time they were even rude to the cops with guns ?!?!?

Now I could have let my anger take over and EASILY beat them into a gooey paste but I didn't. I do think their parents should however. That type of behavior is inexcusable and taking away their iphone for a day won't correct the problem.

This is just one example of how kids, teenagers actually are out of control due to a complete lack of discipline.
See, I still have my anger and rage

You seem to have learned to react with emotional violence when you become angry.

I give what i get when it's adult to adult.
That being said, anger is anger. Everyone who is angry reacts with some type of emotional violence whether it's exhibited or not. As example, ever been cut off by a driver? What did you say under your breath? I bet it wasn't, "have a nice day"

Quite possibly this has to do with your conditioning, i.e. being spanked as a child.

Not at all. I'm an adult and have full control of my faculties and can make decisions without psychologically dissecting my entire childhood.

When you hit your child you are teaching them that any frustrating situation can be resolved through violence and aggression.

Not at all because:
1. You don't HIT a child. As example, if I HIT you. You'd be unconscience.
2. You don't use negative re-enforcement for every situation.

I and the others on this thread who are disagreeing with you are causing you frustration.

Not at all. I'm just explaining my position as you are explaining yours.

As a result you are resorting to the digital equivalent of shouting;

NO ! THIS IS THE DIGITAL EQUIVALENT OF SHOUTING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's aggression.

We all have it. You included.

The next step, provided we continue to disagree, is for you to use some form of violence to shut us up.

I would only use violence to protect myself or someone else. I would and have never instigated violence. The most violent thing I've done is spank my girlfriends butt, but she asked me too so do you consider that violence ?

No-one is misrepresenting you, either.

Actually you are. I'm explaining my position and you're trying to change the meaning of what I'm saying by using words that are inappropriate within the context of what I'm saying.
What would you rather have. A swat on the butt or a BEATING? This is a real question I'd like you to answer.

In any case, you keep saying I am on the side of BEATING kids while I've explained over and over I'm not.

You are advocating striking children as a form of punishment.

Here you go again. STRIKING ! You're trying to make it sound worse then it is. You've also used the word ATTACK ! Have you ever been attacked? Would you consider an ATTACK (your word) the same as a swat? YES or NO ?

Originally posted by mnmcandiez

Originally posted by stovsa
I am currently teaching year 7 and 8 music at a few different high schools in Australia. Let me just say I starred and flagged this thread purely because of the thread title. Please people discipline your kids thoroughly, maybe it's just that I cant remember how horrible I actually was in school or its the fact that kids today really are getting more nastier but I tell you, my job can be a nightmare at times!
Even though I teach a subject based on the arts with a lot of hands on practical work, listening, analyzing and research (all on topics they can choose), a lot of these young kids just CANNOT find anything to appreciate in music. It baffles me! The language, talk back and downright hostility I get just astounds me, and I'm a young 25 yo teacher, not some over the hill old nugget! I had a talk with my father this afternoon about the days when teachers could use the cain to punish unruly students. Let me just say it instantly brought a smile to my face! Boy I'd hit em good!

You shouldn't be a teacher if you want to hit other peoples kids. You are a stranger to them and it isn't up to your authority.

That's like correctional officers hitting an inmate if they yelled at them.

he/she is expressing frustration because of people, possibly like you, who refuse to take the responsibility of raising your own children which forces the rest of the world to raise them. Why is this so hard for you people to understand ?

Originally posted by jfj123


This is just one example of how kids, teenagers actually are out of control due to a complete lack of discipline.
See, I still have my anger and rage

I'm not anti-discipline, I'm just anti-violent actions and this includes smacking, no matter how you would like to dress it up.

There are plenty of effective non=violent disciplinary methods, but there are also a lot of lazy parents.

[edit on 29-7-2009 by aorAki]

[edit on 29-7-2009 by aorAki]

Originally posted by aorAki

Originally posted by jfj123


This is just one example of how kids, teenagers actually are out of control due to a complete lack of discipline.
See, I still have my anger and rage

I'm not anti-discipline, I'm just anti-violent actions and this includes smacking, no matter how you would like to dress it up.

There are plenty of effective non=violent disciplinary methods, but there are also a lot of lazy parents.

[edit on 29-7-2009 by aorAki]

[edit on 29-7-2009 by aorAki]

I'm not disagreeing with you. All I'm saying is that there may be a point where a swat on the butt gets little billy's attention more then a soft voice trying to logically explain what he's done wrong. Kids don't get the whole logic thing.

Also, I'm more referring to teenagers who are out of control. The ones that are, simply don't respond to having their iphone taken away for a day or being grounded or losing car privileges for a week. Because of what their parents have done, simply explaining to them that their wrong DOES NOT WORK.

By the way, I'm not "dressing it up", you're over exaggerating it.

[edit on 29-7-2009 by jfj123]

Originally posted by jfj123
Also, I'm more referring to teenagers who are out of control. The ones that are, simply don't respond to having their iphone taken away for a day or being grounded or losing car privileges for a week. Because of what their parents have done, simply explaining to them that their wrong DOES NOT WORK.

Yes, but I see this as the failings of the parent as well. You have to do the hard yards to get positive results. Being a parent is difficult, it is time consuming and it can be inconvenient at times.

lol I don't have an iphone, why would my kids?

[edit on 29-7-2009 by aorAki]

Originally posted by aorAki
I'm not anti-discipline, I'm just anti-violent actions and this includes smacking, no matter how you would like to dress it up.

No, what you are is against negative reinforcement of any type. This does not work. The world will beat the crap out of people once their magic carpet is pulled out from under them and they hit the pavement with their face (i.e.; realize that they are just another shmuck in 8 billion).

You are doing nobody a service by insisting that punishments are not viable methods of learning. And I don't mean punishment as it has been redefined into the sense of "Forced absence of input" or "No reinforcement but sitting in one spot".

There are plenty of effective non=violent disciplinary methods, but there are also a lot of lazy parents.
[edit on 29-7-2009 by aorAki]

And you'd be absolutely wrong in this statement. All children are not the same, and all children do not have the same temperaments or learn the same.

There are children that respond well to reasoned discourse and positive reinforcement with very little negative reinforcement.

Then there are children that nothing works with, not even beating them black and blue; some children, just like some people, will REFUSE To learn from anyone.

In mother nature, there is a solution to this; kill the aberrant and eat them as a wasted effort. Sadly, human beings don't eat their young, so we are stuck with genetically malfunctioning individuals with severe chemical imbalances being nurtured to adulthood...

oh, and subsequently made worse because the modern movement towards non-parenting would have them carelessly acting with little regard towards harming others because they never learned that sometimes when you kill a puppy with your bare hands, your dad makes sure you can't sit for several weeks.

Your failure at taking into account that PEOPLE are different (And Children are people) means that your statement cannot, in any sense, be considered true.

Originally posted by aorAki

Originally posted by jfj123
Also, I'm more referring to teenagers who are out of control. The ones that are, simply don't respond to having their iphone taken away for a day or being grounded or losing car privileges for a week. Because of what their parents have done, simply explaining to them that their wrong DOES NOT WORK.

Yes, but I see this as the failings of the parent as well.

You are absolutely correct ! I don't blame the teenagers, I blame the parents. However, we still have to deal with the teenagers.

You have to do the hard yards to get positive results. Being a parent is difficult, it is time consuming and it can be inconvenient at times.

lol I don't have an iphone, why would my kids?

[edit on 29-7-2009 by aorAki]

Because the many spoiled, sheltered kids today get all those goodies so they stop throwing tantrums. Parents now raise their kids with bribery instead of discipline. I call it the "GIVE ME, I, ME, MINE" generation.

Originally posted by TheColdDragon


Your failure at taking into account that PEOPLE are different (And Children are people) means that your statement cannot, in any sense, be considered true.

Nowhere have I said that everyone is the same.
Nice assumption.
I love the way people are willing to defend violence against children, at any cost....yet when I say I am against violence and that there are plenty of other acceptable and efficient means of discipline people show their true colours.

Yes, I realise that people are different, but I also realise that violence gets one nowhere, fast, and that (to paraphrase the 'good book') violence begets violence.

But that's fine, you can defend you 'right' to physically abuse your children. Just don't expect me to agree with you (much like I have accepted that you won't agree with me).

All the educators in my family agree that violence is not good and smacking is a backwards and often desperate consequence of one's own shortcomings.

But hey, don't let that get in the way of you giving your kids a good smack. Bet you feel big about it too

[edit on 29-7-2009 by aorAki]

The reality is that parents, for the most part, are not teaching their children that there are meaningful consequences to their actions. As a result, they will not be able to function in the world which means the world will end up taking care of them because they won't be able to take care of themselves. Good job parents ! Thanks for making them my problem !

[edit on 29-7-2009 by jfj123]

Originally posted by jfj123
The reality is that parents, for the most part, are not teaching their children that there are meaningful consequences to their actions.

I agree If you let them unpunished at the beginning than later on they
wont appreciate your opinion.
I think you can teach them discipline and the right values but you must start from the very beginning and without any exceptions because the consequences will multiply later on.

Edited to add I also think that, that can be made possible without hitting them.

[edit on 29-7-2009 by defiler]

Originally posted by aorAki
Nowhere have I said that everyone is the same.
Nice assumption.

It needs not be said, you infer it with your rhetoric. You infer that violence is always the wrong decision. This is an extremely myopic view of reality, as it relies upon dualism of right/wrong and bestows an absolute on reality. Reality is not an absolutist environment. It is a chaotic one.

I love the way people are willing to defend violence against children, at any cost....yet when I say I am against violence and that there are plenty of other acceptable and efficient means of discipline people show their true colours.

You have every right to be against violence, I fault no-one for a passive belief system. What I do fault people for is short-sightedness and coming up with one-fits-all solutions such as "All violence in all situations is always wrong." or more specifically... that Children are a protected class that should be treated differently than other human beings.

When human adults screw up, they get the shiv. Not always literally, but they get it.

Yes, I realise that people are different, but I also realise that violence gets one nowhere, fast, and that (to paraphrase the 'good book') violence begets violence.

Physical punishments are a form of negative reinforcement as they associate certain behaviors with painful memories. It is the trauma that *IS* The point, to traumatize a child so that they will NOT persist in the behavior.

As a perfect example? Children whose parents do not hold their hands in parking lots. Children that run around in parking lots unattended deserve to have the stupid whipped out of them. The only other alternative is that accidental manslaughter in such cases will be made legal, because kids don't instinctively KNOW that vehicles will KILL THEM.

Some kids you can explain it to. Most still won't listen after an explanation; there are ranges of age where "REASON" does not work with the majority of children because they are incapable of cognizantly understanding your reasoning or explanations.

But that's fine, you can defend you 'right' to physically abuse your children. Just don't expect me to agree with you (much like I have accepted that you won't agree with me).

Physical abuse is beating on a child for no reason whatsoever. Negative physical reinforcement is not abuse unless it is carried to an illogical extreme where lasting, permanent damage, broken bones or soft-tissue damage is involved. A red behind is *NOT* child abuse.

However, if you're the sort of person who thinks it is, you're the kind of person who calls the police or gets the authorities involved when you see someone spanking their kid. If you are, you deserve whatever violence someone imagines doing upon you. If you aren't, then you're just talk and cowardice.

All the educators in my family agree that violence is not good and smacking is a backwards and often desperate consequence of one's own shortcomings.

Ahhh, educators. So, do I hold you and your family responsible for the rampant stupidity and abysmally mind-twisting idiocy of the modern youth?

But hey, don't let that get in the way of you giving your kids a good smack. Bet you feel big about it too

[edit on 29-7-2009 by aorAki]

Enjoying punishing ones kids is also a form of child abuse. No child that whups their kids enjoys doing it, it's quite a rotten feeling, but it's done because some things NEED to be beaten home, otherwise you end up with ground hamburger on the parking lot pavement.

Just as example.

[edit on 29-7-2009 by TheColdDragon]

Originally posted by TheColdDragon


Ahhh, educators. So, do I hold you and your family responsible for the rampant stupidity and abysmally mind-twisting idiocy of the modern youth?

[]

Nope, blame the parents. The educators have a hard enough time of it as it is.

Yes, I would call the police. Why wouldn't I?

Violence is laziness. It is ignorance and it breeds violence.

Originally posted by aorAki

Originally posted by TheColdDragon


Ahhh, educators. So, do I hold you and your family responsible for the rampant stupidity and abysmally mind-twisting idiocy of the modern youth?

[]

Nope, blame the parents. The educators have a hard enough time of it as it is.

Yes, I would call the police. Why wouldn't I?

Violence is laziness. It is ignorance and it breeds violence.

You'd call the police if a parent spanked their child? I'm not talking about a beating, I'm talking about a swat on the but to get their attention? You'd actually call the police and try to have the parent arrested over that? YES or NO?

Originally posted by aorAki

Originally posted by TheColdDragon


Ahhh, educators. So, do I hold you and your family responsible for the rampant stupidity and abysmally mind-twisting idiocy of the modern youth?

[]

Nope, blame the parents. The educators have a hard enough time of it as it is.

Yes, I would call the police. Why wouldn't I?

Violence is laziness. It is ignorance and it breeds violence.

No, I blame you, the Educators. You aren't going to put off your lack of ability to educate children on the parents. You are an EDUCATOR, it is your job to teach. You're given lemons, make lemonade. Don't complain that someone didn't provide you with perfectly good apples.

Secondly, if you are the type to call the police on individuals disciplining their children, then by all rights people should deservedly be allowed to beat the daylights out of your kids. You are forcing your view on the world and other people's children, so why shouldn't they be able to do the same to YOU?

Thirdly, including the STATE in anything is a cause for ruination, trust me; I WORK for "The Man".

Fourthly... just because something is "Difficult" does not automagically make it "Correct". It also does not automagically make it a fit-all solution. Violence is not the right solution to every problem, but it is also not the wrong solution to every problem.

Like in all things, moderation... and knowing when to use it.

Originally posted by TheColdDragon

No, I blame you, the Educators. You aren't going to put off your lack of ability to educate children on the parents. You are an EDUCATOR, it is your job to teach. You're given lemons, make lemonade. Don't complain that someone didn't provide you with perfectly good apples.

Then you obviously have no idea about the education system and how parents defer any responsibility for their kids with precisely that sort of attitude. All the good work one does teaching kids at school can be undone by a hand and/or bad parenting. don't go blaming it on the schools when it is the parents' problem.

Originally posted by TheColdDragon, if you are the type to call the police on individuals disciplining their children, then by all rights people should deservedly be allowed to beat the daylights out of your kids. You are forcing your view on the world and other people's children, so why shouldn't they be able to do the same to YOU?

This speaks volumes about you and why you consider violence to be a option.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

In answer to the question. One is positive, one is negative and reinforces the option of violence as a reaction to a problem that one perceives they cannot change using any other method. I call it laziness, you call it a parent's right.
I call that bunkum.

reply to post by aorAki


You'd call the police if a parent spanked their child? I'm not talking about a beating, I'm talking about a swat on the but to get their attention? You'd actually call the police and try to have the parent arrested over that? YES or NO?

Originally posted by jfj123
reply to post by aorAki

 

You'd call the police if a parent spanked their child? I'm not talking about a beating, I'm talking about a swat on the but to get their attention? You'd actually call the police and try to have the parent arrested over that? YES or NO?

In New Zealand, it is illegal as was proven in a recent case, so yes, I would have no qualms.
You see, I believe passionately that we need to break this cycle of violence that we ALL seem to be mired in. I don't see how using a violent action will aid that.

Originally posted by aorAki
Then you obviously have no idea about the education system and how parents defer any responsibility for their kids with precisely that sort of attitude. All the good work one does teaching kids at school can be undone by a hand and/or bad parenting. don't go blaming it on the schools when it is the parents' problem.

Oh, it is 100% the fault of the Educator. It is also 100% the fault of the parents for not properly disciplining the children. This is not a mathematical impossibility.

Parents pass off blame, and apparently, SO DO YOU. Recognize your responsibility as an Educator and don't say, "Well yeah, but it's THEIR fault over there! Not me, the poor innocent educator!"

Originally posted by TheColdDragon
This speaks volumes about you and why you consider violence to be a option.

Oh? That I propose violence when violence is a solution to the problem? Yes. I believe violence is a solution to some problems. I don't seek your approval, and you aren't going to do away with people such as me, just as much as I can't get rid of sycophantic silver-spoon's who see the world through kaleidoscope eyes.

In answer to the question. One is positive, one is negative and reinforces the option of violence as a reaction to a problem that one perceives they cannot change using any other method. I call it laziness, you call it a parent's right.
I call that bunkum.

And you ignore my example. It is better to strike the child than have a dead child. There are some threats that require that there be NO mistake that the behavior being displayed is bad and harmful.

You quote the "Good Book", let me do you the same; "Spare the Rod, Spoil the Child".

A Spanking is *A* solution to a problem. It is immediate, and it can be used in a lazy fashion. However, not EVERY solution as a parent calls for a cup o' tea and a wee chat with the youngun. This is infeasible at times when an immediacy is needed to address behavior.

Your method may work for some children, but it *WILL NOT* work for all children. PERIOD. And if you think differently, you know NOTHING about child psychology.