US Announces $200 Milllion in Aid to Palestinians

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
If Israel gets aide Palestine should get equal aide.

Ya' didn't read the thread .. or you only saw what you wanted to see.
No where did anyone say Israel should get aid and the so-called palestinians should get nothing.

We pretty much all said no one should get anything ... it's not our job.

Sadly I have the read and it's a pretty disturbing read full of suppositions, gross destortions of history and Zionist politics, bigotry, and inhumanity and rudeness.

I would suggest you haven't read the thread. It's another attempt to slander a virtually defenseless people who because of the gross and overwhelming oppression they suffer from theives, racists and biggots can't actually represent or give an account for themselves because they are too busy just trying to stay alive in a world a nefarious and evil entity known as Zionism micro-manages for them.

So smug, detached from any academic or schollarly reason or research armed with their canned propoganda, lies, fabrications and myths a group of morally bankrupt, non-American, stooges and schills run them down for the worst possible reasons.

While most people of intelligence and intellect and reason can spot this all on their own, I like to point it out from time to time just in case those with out a conscious or morals suddenly feel inclined to develop some!

The Palestinians deserve the aide, the Israelis don't based on all your own arguments.

reply to post by mattpryor


He still had no sovereignty over them MattPryor nor any authority to speak on their behalf and obviously they didn't want him speaking on their behalf or agreed with his own attempts at a blatant power and land grab that he likely figured while the U.N. was aiding and abetting power and land grabs he might as well get in on it.

No it didn't hit a nerve, intelligent people see it for what it was, because the British Mandate wasn't ruled by Jordan ever!

The Ottoman Turks had the region before that not Jordan.

And people living in the region referred to themselves as Palestinians not Jordanians.

It's another desperate ploy, and another off topic attempt, like pro-Zionists always do, to put as much confusing and helter skelter information on the table, to detract from gaining resolution and consensus on anyone issue.

When their arguments fail to sway on one track and tack they just switch the argument over to another track and tack, it's called deflection but it's really just called cowardice by people who have morals and a conscious.

Palestine deserves the money, Israel deserves none, and since it's American money and I live in America and you don't, I have a little bit better chance of having truth and justice prevail.

Doesn't that just make you all warm and fuzzy inside?

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Oh Lordy, you're a gem.

He still had no sovereignty over them MattPryor nor any authority to speak on their behalf and obviously they didn't want him speaking on their behalf or agreed with his own attempts at a blatant power and land grab that he likely figured while the U.N. was aiding and abetting power and land grabs he might as well get in on it.

Well if I recall, King Hussein was king of Jordan from 1952 onwards. King Abdullah was King of Jordan before that. If I remember further, Jordan occupied Judea/Samara and East Jerusalem between 1948 and 1967.

Are you accepting that, or would you like to re-write that part of history as well? Maybe that whole episode was a Zionist ploy to deceive us?

Maybe Jordan was CIA / Mossad backed? Anything's possible in this crazy fictional Middle East that you seem to have studied!

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
like pro-Zionists

Zionist this .. zionist that... ya' really need some fresh air.
No one said Israel deserves aid. I said they do NOT deserve aid.
No foreigner does. Its' our money and we should keep it.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
The Palestinians deserve the aide, the Israelis don't based on all your own arguments.

Obviously you didn't read the thread even though you claim to have.

I said NO ONE deserves the aid. Based on my own 'arguments' none of them deserve it. It's MY money and I deserve it in my own pocket.

Originally posted by Nammu
They have no other income except aid because that it all Israel will allow.

And since that is their only income it MUST be what they are using to buy the weapons and bombs and to pay for their propaganda TV. Obviously they don't desperately need aid.

So the solution would then be for Israel to stop the blockade

The solution would be for the 'palestinians' to stop raining down rockets and suicide bombers upon the Israeli civilians so that the Israelis can open their border. The solution would be for the 'palestinians' to behave better when in Egypt so that Egypt would open their border as well.

Israel controls Gaza.

The people in the Gaza had control and they blew it.
They made their bed and now they must lie in it.

No ones mentioned religion apart from you and now you're suddenly having a go at all muslims and not just Palestinians.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiight ... where exactly am I having a 'go at all muslims'?? The FACT is that their oil rich brethren could be helping out and they aren't. There is no reason for us to help when their own neighbors see no reason to help.

True colours are showing a bit there Flyers. Watch it.

Your insinuation isn't even close to the truth.
Watch it - rightbackatchya.

Israel ruined the country using your money, now you have to pay to fix it.

The so-called palestinians ruined their own chances in the Gaza.
They should have to pay for their own mistakes.
(mistakes like unending rocket attacks and suicide bombers ...)


[edit on 7/28/2009 by FlyersFan]

reply to post by FlyersFan


I am in favor of passing a special tax just for Zionist living in the U.S. of say 85% of their income and giving all that money to Palestine.

I think we should start a lend lease weapons program for them too

With very flexible terms.

I think we should do a Berlin style airlift to relieve the Israeli siege on them and end the illegal collective punishment towards them.

I think no amount of money is too small to do this!

I favor borrowing trillions of more dollars from China to do it!

I think U.S. Special Forces should be sent in to Palestine to train their militia!

I think that's what George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams would have been in favor of after reviewing the aggressions and thefts of their lands.

I also favor giving each Palestinian free cellular and internet service!

I am feeling very charitible towards the Palestinians today because they are decent, honest, hard working people, who have more dignity and humanity in just one Palestinians little finger than Israel appears to have in it's entire country!

That's what I think.

I am very in favor of this aide now, and can't think of one valid factual reason not to give it to them!

Originally posted by mattpryor
Well if I recall, ...

That's pretty much how I recall it as well.
At least, that's what my history books say.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
That's what I think.

Well .... all I can say is .... that explains a lot.

reply to post by FlyersFan

And since that is their only income it MUST be what they are using to buy the weapons and bombs and to pay for their propaganda TV. Obviously they don't desperately need aid.

Obviously they do need aid. Or how would wages be paid, gas and electricity be supplied, hospitals and schools be ran, houses be repaired and businesses rebuilt? They need aid because Israle makes it that way, not the Palestinians. You think they choose to live the way they do?

The solution would be for the 'palestinians' to stop raining down rockets and suicide bombers upon the Israeli civilians so that the Israelis can open their border. The solution would be for the 'palestinians' to behave better when in Egypt so that Egypt would open their border as well.

And why do you think the Palestinians militants are angry enough at Israel to fire rockets in the first place? Maybe if they weren't thrown off their land and made to live in a ghetto instead they wouldn't be so p'd off. Maybe if Israel had stuck to it's side of the bargain and only kept to the land that the Palestinians kindly gave them we wouldn't even be discussing this.

But that's living in the past. We need to look to the future. There's kids living in the Gaza strip and West Bank that have been involved in nothing. The only knowledge they have is of the oppressors. All it's doing is breeding a new generation of militants to fight Israel and it's Israel that's causing it.

The people in the Gaza had control and they blew it.
They made their bed and now they must lie in it.

They blew nothing. They were living peacefully in their own land. Israel took their land from them and moved them to the ghettos where they can't provide for themselves. Now they're fighting to get their land back, and for their freedom. Proto's right. The founders of America would support their cause. Equality for all.

where exactly am I having a 'go at all muslims'?? The FACT is that their oil rich brethren could be helping out and they aren't. There is no reason for us to help when their own neighbors see no reason to help.

Well you feel the need to refer to Muslims as THEY and bring religion to a debate that is about aid to people in peril, when religion is not a factor.

The so-called palestinians ruined their own chances in the Gaza.
They should have to pay for their own mistakes.
(mistakes like unending rocket attacks and suicide bombers ...)

They have no chance in Gaza. That's the problem. Them being there in the first place. It's the most densely populated place on the planet. 1.3 million people in only 360 sq km. 33% of the population are in refugee camps. They didn't move there voluntarily. They didn't wake up one day and say 'Pack up kids, we're found a great new place to stay!".

Originally posted by mattpryor
Yep, and funnily enough it's identical to the Jordanian flag without the white star.
Which kind of proves Flyer's point

What does that prove of anything? Look at the Dutch flag, to the French flag, and the Russian flag!
Look at the Indian flag, to the Irish flag, and the Mexican flag!
The British to the New Zealand and to Australia!
Just because they are similar does not mean they are affiliated. I agree Jordan-Palestine are probably affiliated, but similarity does not mean 'the same'.

A better argument is, look at the Scandinavian flags.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d43a7fb7a6fc.jpg[/atsimg]
Do you not see the similarity? All 'Nordic Crosses'.
Swedes, Danes, Icelanders, Finns, Russians, ALL have their roots in Norway. But we dont call them Norwegians. In fact Swedes Danes and Icelanders are PURELY Norwegian, but they have their own affiliation, cultural differences, etc.

reply to post by Ridhya


Wow, yeah they all have crosses... nearly identical!

Now let's look at the Jordanian and Palestinian flags:

Jordan:
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/deba12ae6b5d.png[/atsimg]

Palestine:
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b4301dc95820.png[/atsimg]

The reason they're so similar, by the way, is that both were based on a design by Sir Mark Sykes (a Briton) to give the local Arabs a "sense" of national identity to stir them up against the Ottomans.

Before WWI there was no Palestine. There was no Jordan. There was just the Ottoman Empire, a vast swathe of land populated by tribes and clans under foreign rule.

The whole notion of "national identity" is a Western invention. It relies on borders and local government, which are again Western inventions.

The majority of "indigenous peoples" in Palestine were economic migrants from Jordan, Egypt and Syria. Yasser Arafat himself, that great champion of Palestinian self determination (and before that Pan-Arab nationalism, when it suited him) was... (drum roll) Egyptian!

Palestinians live in squalor. They are dirt poor. They have poor infrastructure and sanitation, by Western standards. But they are not starving to death, and there are plenty of people in the world who really, genuinely are.

And yes over 700,000 of them live in makeshift UNRWA camps in Israel. A further 337,551 live in UNRWA run camps in Jordan, but you never hear about those. Tell me who's fault that is? People like to blame Israel, but the blame is shared by the UN and the 22 surrounding Arab nations, any one of whom could have lifted a finger to a) help improve their infrastructure or b) absorb some of those refugees. None of them have, much as they like to rally round and proclaim their solidarity with them.

UNWRA has been operating in Gaza and Judea/Samara for what, 40 years now? And during that time how much money has been poured into the area by well meaning Western governments? And has it improved their lives one little bit? It's shameful and it's disgusting.

And I also wish that my government and the UN would stop pouring money into this place, but they never will because it's an industry. It's in the UNRWA's interests to perpetuate the conditions that Palestinians live in because otherwise a lot of very well paid people would be out of a job.

If people care about Palestinians' wellbeing then they should donate to charities. Similarly, I wouldn't mind if the US stopped the guaranteed loans to Israel, I'm sure the Israelis would cope and they'd probably be better off without America's intervention in their internal affairs.

Government is not charity, and my donations to it are not voluntary. I wish they'd stop acting like they are.

And you know what else? The more I read these threads, the more convinced I am that people like ProtoplasticTraveller don't give a jot about Palestinians' wellbeing, except when it's an opportunity to vilify Israelis.

[edit on 29-7-2009 by mattpryor]

Originally posted by Nammu
They need aid because Israle makes it that way, not the Palestinians. You think they choose to live the way they do?

The so-called palestinians choose to live a certain way and that way has consequences. They choose their own actions and they have to live with the results of their choices.

why do you think the Palestinians militants are angry enough at Israel to fire rockets in the first place?

Brainwashing and them being thrown out of Syria, Jordan, and Egypt.

All it's doing is breeding a new generation of militants to fight Israel and it's Israel that's causing it.

Their US Tax Payer funded Hamas brainwashing tv shows is doing that.

They blew nothing. They were living peacefully in their own land.

There were never peaceful. 'Their own land' is Jordan.
The middle eastern muslims and middle eastern jews have never
had 'peaceful' states.

Well you feel the need to refer to Muslims as THEY and bring religion to a debate that is about aid to people in peril, when religion is not a factor.

'They' are they. 'They' certainly aren't 'us'.
Religion DOES matter to them. It's all they live by.
Therefore, I suggest that their muslim brethren provide aid.
They are oil rich and we are not.

They have no chance in Gaza. That's the problem.

Then they can go back to Syria, Jordan, and Egypt where they belong.


They are laying in a bed of their own making and it is NOT the US taxpayers job or duty to hand them money let alone hand them money with no accountability.

END ALL FOREIGN AID. Put it back in the tax payers pocket.
Or at the very least, spend it on Americans.
We have plenty in need of aid here.




[edit on 7/29/2009 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by mattpryor
People like to blame Israel, but the blame is shared by the UN and the 22 surrounding Arab nations,

The oil rich brethren of the so-called palestinians are in a much better position to be 'helpful'. Of course, they don't help. They LOVE having the so-called Palestinians to have issues with their dred enemy, the Israelis.

I also wish that my government and the UN would stop pouring money into this place, but they never will because it's an industry.

It's the industry of 'victimhood'. If the so-called palestinians ever actually ended their 'victimhood' then the billions in 'aid' would stop flowing in and the muslim countries would have to accept the Jews in Israel. That's something they dont' want to happen so they perpetuate the 'victim' status of the so-called palestinians.

This thread has gone way way way off topic. I thought it was meant to be about US aid to Palestinian people. I didn't realise the design of their flag and it's similarity to other flags was a factor on whether they need aid or not.

But while we're on the subject:

Côte d’Ivoire



Ireland



Their flag design is insignificant in this debate.

And yes over 700,000 of them live in makeshift UNRWA camps. Tell me who's fault that is?

The fault of the people that moved them from their land into the camps obviously. They didn't go there voluntarily.

People like to blame Israel, but the blame is shared by the UN and the 22 surrounding Arab nations, any one of whom could have lifted a finger to a) help improve their infrastructure or b) absorb some of those refugees. None of them have, much as they like to rally round and proclaim their solidarity with them.

So you're complaining that you shouldn't have to pay, but then saying that someone else that was uninvolved should pay.

Other arab nations never ruined the infrastructure and they have absorbed refugees. Your viewpoint is a very 'us and them' way to look at things based on the race of the people involved. We all know already who caused the immense damage to the area. If you think America shouldn't foot the bill, then why would you think other uninvolved countries should?

American money paid for Israel to create the damage, then pays for the damage to be cleaned up. But unfortunately the damage must be cleaned up as much as possible to avoid a humanitarian crisis and provide a better future for children that are born into a situation that is not their fault. Otherwise this never ends! Anyone with any shred of humanity would agree that making things better for the next generation is the only option to solve this.

Originally posted by Nammu
I didn't realise the design of their flag and it's similarity to other flags was a factor on whether they need aid or not.

I think the point was that the 'palestinians' are Jordanians and they should take care of their own.

Other arab nations never ruined the infrastructure and they have absorbed refugees.

Actually, other arab nations are the ones that created the 'palestinians' to begin with. They kept kicking them out of their countries and they are the ones that keep pushing them off onto Israel.

We all know already who caused the immense damage to the area.

yes. The so-called palestinians. They keep damaging themselves.

If you think America shouldn't foot the bill, then why would you think other uninvolved countries should?

Not addressed to me but I'll respond ...

America shouldn't foot the bill. No one else should foot the bill.
However, to those that scream America should ... the palestinian
brethren should take care of their own - that would be Jordan,
Syria and Egypt - since that is where the so-called palestinians
came from anyways.

Originally posted by Nammu
Anyone with any shred of humanity would agree that making things better for the next generation is the only option to solve this.

So not wanting my hard earned tax money to go to some militant foreigners who have no accountability means i'm subhuman ??

And as far as 'the next generation' of so-called palestinians goes ... they are already lost. The little kiddies watch brainwashing TV shows - paid for by my 'aid' tax money - all about Jihad and how Israelis are apes and pigs, etc


Considering that you don't live in America, Nammu, you certainly are free about spreading my hard earned tax money around. Foreigners just love to tax Americans to death and spend our money for us.

reply to post by FlyersFan

The so-called palestinians choose to live a certain way and that way has consequences. They choose their own actions and they have to live with the results of their choices.

No, the many are punished for the actions of the few. Do you really believe every man, woman and child in that camp fired a rocket at Israel? Really?

Brainwashing and them being thrown out of Syria, Jordan, and Egypt.

That answer doesn't even make sense. They wouldn't fire rockets at Israel because they're p'd off at 3 other countries.

Their US Tax Payer funded Hamas brainwashing tv shows is doing that.

Do you maybe think the TV shows are an effect rather than the cause? In no way do i agree with kids shows like that and i think it's shocking, but they're being bred from hatred and frustration that didn't appear from nowhere.

I mean, Disney made plenty of blatently racist cartoons at one point. I don't go about thinking all Americans are racist.

There were never peaceful. 'Their own land' is Jordan.
The middle eastern muslims and middle eastern jews have never
had 'peaceful' states.

Their own land is land that they personally owned, had the deeds for, lived on, grew up on and grew crops on. I'm not bothered about what country it belonged to. I'm bothered about the people it belonged to. Muslims, Jews and Christians have lived together in that area for a long time. The current problem started when there was an influx of large amounts of non-semetic Jews to the area and the illegal settlements started, which is still happening.



Imagine you own land and farm it, then someone comes along and takes it from you and shoves you in a cage. Then you sit in the cage getting angrier and angries throwing stones, sticks, anything you can at the people that took your land.

Then people come along and say 'It's their fault they're in that cage. They shouldn't be throwing sticks and stones at those other people! Don't feed them or help them any more! Let them starve, it's their own fault'.

Then you have a child while in the cage and the child asks 'Mommy, why are we in a cage and they live out there?'. You'd tell them 'Well, cause those horrible people threw us off our land and put us in here!'.

You certainly wouldn't say 'Well, some people that live in other parts of the area we live in were bad people. So the new people in our country decided to put us in here for their own protection and lock us all up and i'm glad they did because any one of us might be a bad person. Even you son, because you were born here so that makes you a bad person.'

reply to post by FlyersFan

America shouldn't foot the bill. No one else should foot the bill.
However, to those that scream America should ... the palestinian
brethren should take care of their own - that would be Jordan,
Syria and Egypt - since that is where the so-called palestinians
came from anyways

They already send aid to palestine. So you believe that countries should only send aid to people if the people living within the country that needs the aid originally came from there?

So not wanting my hard earned tax money to go to some militant foreigners who have no accountability means i'm subhuman ??

That's not what i said. I said anyone with any humanity would want things to get better for the next generation. Which is a very true statement. That doesn't have to be your money going there.

And as far as 'the next generation' of so-called palestinians goes ... they are already lost. The little kiddies watch brainwashing TV shows - paid for by my 'aid' tax money - all about Jihad and how Israelis are apes and pigs, etc

So you really don't care if those children, that had nothing to do with anything, and are caught up in something that's not their fault, live or die? What about the generation after that or after that? When do you start trying to fix things rather than living in the past? Is it not a better idea to try to show these children that what they are told is not true, rather that allowing it to continue?

Considering that you don't live in America, Nammu, you certainly are free about spreading my hard earned tax money around. Foreigners just love to tax Americans to death and spend our money for us.

I'm sorry. I didn't see an 'Americans Only' sign in the OP and was under the impression this was an open debate. UK tax money goes to Palestine as foreign aid as well you know. But i don't mind. I also blame the UK for starting all this in the first place.

[edit on 29-7-2009 by Nammu]

Originally posted by Nammu
Their flag design is insignificant in this debate.

It has every significance, because we're debating where aid should come from and whether the West should continue funding the Palestinians when the money gets WASTED.

50 years ago Jordan's political classes were claiming that Palestinians are Jordanian. Now they've changed their tune and are revoking citizenship for Jordanian Palestinians because it's in their interests to maintain a separation. I am using historical and current evidence to assert that there is no ethnic, racial, cultural or linguistic difference between "Palestinians" in Judea/Samara and "Jordanians" east of the river Jordan. The fact that their flag is pretty much identical should be a big clue to you.

The fault of the people that moved them from their land into the camps obviously. They didn't go there voluntarily.

Well that's an interesting point, so let's see whose fault that was.

During the Israeli war of independence (which was a nasty, trench-based war instigated by Israel's neighbours in an attempt to cleanse the land of Jews and remove the "Zionist entity") there was a population transfer, as happens with every war. A large number of Arabs living within Israel fled to Gaza and the West Bank. Some of whom fled out of fear, some were driven out by Israelis, and some were encouraged to leave by the invading forces - mostly though, civilians tend to get out of the way when war comes.

An equal number of Jews fled from surrounding Arab countries into Israel (again, some fled in fear, some were driven out and some were probably encouraged by Israel). While Israel accepted the immigrants and integrated them into their society, Jordan, Egypt and Syria did not and kept them separate, for political purposes, and they remained in camps in Gaza (governed by Egypt) and West Bank (governed by Jordan).

Egypt continued to occupy Gaza for 19 years, and Jordan continued to occupy Judea/Samara for 19 years, until 1967 when Israel retook the land in another defensive war against the usual suspects. During that time the camps continued and living conditions got worse.

They still remain there to this day. So the fault for the existence of the refugee camps and Palestinian poverty is not purely Israel's but also Egypt's, Jordan's and Syria's. In the context of "who should support the Palestinians", this is highly relevant is it not?

So you're complaining that you shouldn't have to pay, but then saying that someone else that was uninvolved should pay.

As a British citizen I'd say that Britain has meddled and interfered in Middle Eastern politics for long enough, and financial aid from my country should be in the form of charitable donations so that people have a choice as to which causes they support. The whole concept of state managed foreign aid is questionable, unless it is in our national interests.

Other arab nations never ruined the infrastructure and they have absorbed refugees. Your viewpoint is a very 'us and them' way to look at things based on the race of the people involved. We all know already who caused the immense damage to the area. If you think America shouldn't foot the bill, then why would you think other uninvolved countries should?

If by "absorbing the population" you mean letting Palestinians living in demeaning refugee camps for two generations, then yes they have done a great job. If you mean by reserving the right to revoke their citizenship after 50 years of living in Jordan (as they have now done), then yes what wonderful humanitarians they are.

And it's interesting that you pull out the race card when you find yourself on the losing end of the debate. This has nothing to do with race, it's about taking responsibility, and in my view it's unjust and unfair that every other nation in the region has washed their hands of the Palestinians so that the world can point the finger at Israel and scream how evil they are.

American money paid for Israel to create the damage, then pays for the damage to be cleaned up. But unfortunately the damage must be cleaned up as much as possible to avoid a humanitarian crisis and provide a better future for children that are born into a situation that is not their fault. Otherwise this never ends! Anyone with any shred of humanity would agree that making things better for the next generation is the only option to solve this.

Well I agree with you, however Western money does NOT make things better, it makes things worse by perpetuating the misery. If we want things to be better for the next generation then the best thing we can do is stay the hell out of it (both sides) and let them sort it out themselves.

reply to post by mattpryor

It has every significance, because we're debating where aid should come from and whether the West should continue funding the Palestinians when the money gets WASTED.

The design of their flag is not relevant to this. I understand the history of linkages to Jordan.

I am using historical and current evidence to assert that there is no ethnic, racial, cultural or linguistic difference between "Palestinians" in Judea/Samara and "Jordanians" east of the river Jordan.

I accept that. and whether or not they 'were' Jordanian, the fact is that the people of Gaza and the West Bank are no longer classed as Jordanian. They do not live in Jordan, hold Jordanian citizenship or passports (well, except the Palestinian refugees in Jordan but they just had their citizenship revoked). It's the present and future that should be concerning us, not the past.

So the fault for the existence of the refugee camps and Palestinian poverty is not purely Israel's but also Egypt's, Jordan's and Syria's. In the context of "who should support the Palestinians", this is highly relevant is it not?

I'm well aware of the history of the area, so i won't quote your full comments. To me this is not a question of 'Who should support the Palestinians'. Indeed the countries you have mentioned do supply aid to the region and continual support fixes nothing. It's a waste of resources. It's more of a question of 'Who should help the Palestinians support themselves and get them back on their feet'. I agree that Egypt, Syria and Jordan had a hand in the reason for the original existence of the refugee camps, but their continuing existence, lack of improvements, and indeed the worsening of the conditions cannot be attributed to those countries. Israel controls the borders and sea in that area. If the Palestinians are to be allowed to function economically, then it's Israel that holds the cards.

As a British citizen I'd say that Britain has meddled and interfered in Middle Eastern politics for long enough, and financial aid from my country should be in the form of charitable donations so that people have a choice as to which causes they support. The whole concept of state managed foreign aid is questionable, unless it is in our national interests.

Agreed on that point

My comment:

And it's interesting that you pull out the race card when you find yourself on the losing end of the debate.

lol. That wasn't a race card and i'm not losing. You said that "the 22 surrounding Arab nations, any one of whom could have lifted a finger to a) help improve their infrastructure or b) absorb some of those refugees. None of them have, much as they like to rally round and proclaim their solidarity with them."

So actually you were the one that mentioned other Arab nations helping. I'm assuming just because Palestinians are also Arabs. Your point would have been as equally valid without 'Arab' in it.

Well I agree with you, however Western money does NOT make things better, it makes things worse by perpetuating the misery. If we want things to be better for the next generation then the best thing we can do is stay the hell out of it (both sides) and let them sort it out themselves.

Well, we definitely agree on that one mattpryor. If only we'd stayed out from the start. But i really can't stand to see children being subjected to a life of misery for something they were not involved in and find it hard to stomach that anyone can tar them with the mistakes made before they were born, rather than trying to help as much as possible to get the damn place fixed. I can't help caring.

Any aid money should go to organisations like the Palestinian Red Cross so we can be sure it is used for the right things. But even then there's no way to guarantee how it's used! There's never full accountability.

Edit to fix my quotes!


[edit on 29-7-2009 by Nammu]

reply to post by Ferris.Bueller.II


Hi Ferris/

Fair enough to see that the money does go toward the palestians with needs, but why do you DOUBT that it wont?
Let's not look at what the MEDIA has to offer in place of the TRUTH.
And then one truly must ASK,what is the truth?

ICXC NIKA
helen

Originally posted by Nammu
Israel controls the borders and sea in that area. If the Palestinians are to be allowed to function economically, then it's Israel that holds the cards.

I agree with you 100%. Israelis do control the land and could do more to help Palestinians out of poverty, and a lot of Israeli human rights groups are working very hard to achieve that. The Israeli government has also stated that the best way to help the Palestinians is economically, and has called on the Jewish diaspora to contribute to that effort, and I agree with them.

But challenging attitudes and long-standing hatred will take a long time, generations.

However we also can't deny that there is a real and present terrorist threat to Israeli civilians from groups such as Hamas, Qassam Brigade, and Islamic Jihad, regardless of what you think the reasons for those groups existing is. And while it's easy to say how inhumane the checkpoints and the West Bank wall etc are, it's also important to remember that they're there for very real security reasons, not because Israelis enjoy making life difficult for Palestinians, which seems to be a common (unjust) perception in the West.

All in all it's a tragic situation on all sides, and one which has escalated over many years, and everything the West tries to do to improve the situation makes things worse. I just don't know what the answer is, but I do know that Israel is there to stay and if people want them to make concessions then the way to do it is through polite negotiation and debate, not shouting and screaming "Genocide! Nazis!" every opportunity.

reply to post by mattpryor


Oh MattPryor I get such a chuckle out of your posts.

You start it out with there was no Jordan or Palestinians under the Ottomans....

Then go on to say that Palestinians are actually Jordanians!

Does anyone in Tel Aviv actually think these things through before they give them to pro-Zionists to put out into the propoganda machine.

How could Palestinians actually then be Jordanians by your logic if neither existed?

If the British created both Palestine and Trans Jordan after taking over the region, and meant for them to be all one people...ahem Jordanians then why did they create TWO seperate flags, and TWO seperate names.

I know it will take you a little while to get with Tel Aviv and find some answers on this...

What would you like to deflect from the question with in the meantime?

Zionist Argument #31, The Palistinians aren't actually Palistinians because one of them once visited Antartica...

Or my very favorite #116, the Palistinians aren't actually Palistinians but were simply a group of travelling Kirby Vacuum Sales people trapped by violence between the Ottomans and Brittish.

I have never figured out if Zionists are really this dumb or they think the people they make up these rediculous stories for are!