Why the planes?

reply to post by thedman

The 911 hijackers had just to steer
the aircraft into the target, not take off and climb ...

Well, climbing and descending isn't hard, but your point is valid if you include:

-Finding the jet at the airport to "steal"

-Finding one with plenty of fuel onboard already

-Knowing how to get the door open, if it's locked

-Knowing how to start the engines

-Knowing enough about that particular model of airplane you are stealing, so that you can set the correct flap setting for takeoff, speeds, etc

-Conducting proper after-takeoff procedures to configure for normal climb and cruise

-Not getting caught

In 1993 a truck bomb was used on the WTC. They wanted on tower to 'fall' into the other to take them down. This was in a book I read about the WTC bombing and was bought out in the trial. This was the uncle of the man who planned and suggested 9/11. He finished what was tried once before.

If you look at the planes in 9/11, one came from the north and one from the south. They, the terrorists, were attempting to hit them so hard that they would fall over into one another, the same thing they tried in 93.

If the government wanted to bring down the towers, they could have rolled in a few limos or Fed Ex trucks, untraceable, and it would have been a hell of alot easier than flying planes into the towers, waiting, and then hoping the TONS of thermite you planted works.

Also, i think its a statement of intent. Blowing up bombs is one thing. But taking something as brilliant as a plane and turning it into a weapon is a very bold statement. Not only are you not safe on the ground, you are not safe in the air either! It also caused panic in airports for long after

I was just about to post a reply till I saw this post. It pretty much sums up my thoughts. Personally, I hate flying. It's not to the point where I can't fly or that I'm shaking while on a flight; rather I just feel some discomfort. Now seeing huge jetliners flying into buildings is just scary. The whole point is to produce large amounts of fear, and it certainly does.

[edit on 27-7-2009 by Thrilla Kid]

reply to post by titorite


Why do all that - energy of plane impacting building is equivalent to
several hundred pounds TNT. Add in 9000 + gallons of jet fuel

Can create more damage just using large aircraft.

Your method have to go steal plane, load it up with explosives, wire
the explosives. After all that - all the while hoping nobody spots
you and calls cops.

As WEEDWACKER said - must gain entry to aircraft without damaging it

Its not like a car where can break window

Still must be able to fly the damn plane! Or did you forget that?

So if hijackers cant fly jet liner already in flight - how do you expect them
to fly a stolen plane off the ground?

Which is why hijacked airliners in flight - all the hard work is already done

Originally posted by thedman
reply to post by titorite

 

Why do all that - energy of plane impacting building is equivalent to
several hundred pounds TNT. Add in 9000 + gallons of jet fuel

Can create more damage just using large aircraft.

Why do all that....tsk tsk... Because the OP said Why the planes? Why not just blow it all up if the planes weren't needed. And I was merely pointing out that if the planes were absolutely necessitous to the job than why not use more planes instead of less.

Some folks cling to their ignorance like a blanket but that doesn't make their assumptions true. TNT will be stronger than and more explosive than jet fuel today, tomorrow, and forever.

Your method have to go steal plane, load it up with explosives, wire
the explosives. After all that - all the while hoping nobody spots
you and calls cops.

Last I checked hijacking WAS stealing. AND TNT is a stable explosive not a fire proof explosive. Come back to reality man.

Which is why hijacked airliners in flight - all the hard work is already done

Yes...Box cutters. The international weapon of mass destruction . The require no training at all, just apply to one persons neck and the pilots throw away their years of training and become sissies.

Bud I'd sooner believe the moon was made of cheese before I believed the total crock of the official story of 911.

At that end of the day thats all it was, a story

reply to post by titorite

just apply to one persons neck and the pilots throw away their years of training and become sissies.

Simple question for you...

Have you ever had a colleague, who at the same time is in all liklihood a close freind that you've worked with for several years threatened with death or harm? She'd be dead unless you did whatever the perpertrator wanted you to do? For all those pilots knew, this was a standard "fly us to Cuba" hijacking. Cooperate, and everyone goes home safe, scared, but safe, and more importantly, alive.

In your perfect and infallible hindsight, what would you have done? Hmmm? Yeah, it's easy to say, I'd not have turned the plane over to hijackers. Ever heard someone die after their throats been cut? Add to the fact that that someone is a freind? Real easy to talk of courage when you're sitting behind a computer screen, my freind... Less easy to do it in reality. Why do you think police train in that very scenario?

Sissies? Airline pilots are many things, sissies aren't one of them. Not just anybody gets to strap on one of those things for a living.

Thank you, seagull, for that logical clarity.

titorite, try to imagine, for a moment, you're sitting in the pilots' seat. The cockpit door is behind you. No more than about four feet behind you. Your lap belt is on. There is a control wheel in front of you, attached to a three-inch wide column that rises up from the floor, between your knees. That's the position the seats are normally in, for flight.

Now, you are surprised from behind by two people, armed with a knife (the aforementioned snickered-at 'box-cutter'). Do you know the box-cutters grocery store shelf stockers use? It's about 4 1/2 inches long, with the razor sharp blade sticking out the end. It was the weapon of choice, then, because IT WAS ALLOWED!!!

Now, in that scenario, try to put up a defense.

Just to recap: You: Seated, seatbelt attached. Assailant: Standing, with weapon behind you, can reach you from the door in less than one second.

See it now?
edit: Here's a pic:

767 in Flight

For getting in and out of the seats, they move aft and outward, but obviously when flying they are up so you can reach the controls.

Here, you can see the view from the cockpit door. The First Officer has the least to turn around to look behind him, the Captain is at the mercy of the assailant. The jumpseat on the right is unoccupied, unless it has a rider (freeloader) or the flight is over eight hours, and there's a third pilot (international).
View from door

Note, on the B767, there is a step down into the cockpit, and door opens inward. On the B757, just the opposite, and door is more centered.




[edit on 28 July 2009 by weedwhacker]

posted by seagull
reply to post by titorite

Sissies? Airline pilots are many things, sissies aren't one of them. Not just anybody gets to strap on one of those things for a living.

Of course the pilots are not sissies. Most of them started out as highly trained military pilots and are dedicated patriots. These commercial pilots are professionals, taking care with the lives of the people under their expertise.

This is just another reason among many, why many of us believe there never were any pilots to hand over their cockpits to imaginary hijackers in the four aircraft involved in 9-11. The aircraft were deliberately swapped on the ground or later in the air, and remotely flown into the towers. It appears from the sizes of the fuel explosions that the interiors were loaded with extra fuel bladders instead of passengers.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/5eb2ec3fbcfa.jpg[/atsimg]

Real hijackers and their genius mastermind controller, whether it was the new official mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, or the original mastermind Usama bin Laden, would never have assumed that they could take over 4 commercial aircraft with boxcutters. That is ridiculous.

No organization would risk their long-term planning on such a risky method of takeover. Just plain silly is what it is.

reply to post by SPreston

...why many of us believe...

Well...see, that's the word right there. "believe".

Are you an airline pilot?

Because, your points are valid, about not giving up the airplane, IF it ever came to that. AND, ya know, not that it matters, but a lot of pilots are NOT ex-military. NOT trained in self-defense hand-to-hand combat techniques. But, regardless, if surprised from behind, in that situation, the advantage is the assailant's.

[edit on 28 July 2009 by weedwhacker]

No need for any pilots to do anything when the only thing you have is some blips on a radar screen.

D.Duck

reply to post by D.Duck



United 93 Flight Path Study

American 77 and United 93 AutoPilot Study

ATC Recording, UAL 93

reply to post by seagull


Maybe I should of used the Sarc option to signify my sarcasm... Dealing with the variety of trolls that pollute this forum is wearing off on me if I am becoming sarcastic.

As Preston said. Many of those pilots have military training. And I like him do not believe they would throw away their training and the safety of the plane to hijackers over some lousy box cutters.

BEFORE 911 people smuggled guns onto planes to hijack them. They might fly here or their or sometimes they would fly the planes in circles till it ran out of fuel. One does not give up control unless one can not avoid it. If a bullet pops the cabin your all gonna go anyways so that is a no win and an obvious choice.

But Box Cutters?

Some of the folks on those planes were military men and your telling me they could not disarm a man with a box cutter?

YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT I WOULD OF DONE!?

I would of grabbed their lousy box cutter by the blade taken the slice to the hand and disarmed then would be hijacker.

But OK lets roll with the OS for a second.

They said they had a bomb too. OK back to the easy hard choice of losing control.

You wanna explain how 2001 cell phones can make calls at 20,000 feet? Can you tell me how those planes completely disappeared off radar for ANY amount of time? You do know that the eastern seaboard is the most heavily monitored airspace right? Can you explain how they turned those planes around and flew back to their targets with no help from the Air Traffic control? Its not like clouds make great land marks and by the time you hit Ohio airspace navigating back is not like turning a car around and driving back. To say nothing of jet fuel bringing down steel buildings. Even buildings not hit by planes fell that day. Buildings that just happened to house the bulk of the Enron documents. Larry Silverstien told the NYFD that the smartest thing to do to building 7 would be to pull it. Since when does the NYFD take orders from civilians? And since when are they trained in controlled demolition? I got firefighters in my family and I can tell you that in Houston and Austin they do not train their firefighters in controlled demolition. If their chief ordered them to bring down a building they would not know how to do it.

The Official story has holes. LOTS OF HOLES. So many holes that the only logical conclusion that can be made is that the government is lying to us. Just like they did with JFK and the USS Maine the US government has a history of lying to its citizens and the world abroad. But a lie like 911 is too big. Thats why other nations are now telling their citizens and the world abroad that the US is lying about 911.

WHY PLANES? Because it made a horrific image on tv that is indelibly etched into all our minds. Its called propaganda.


[edit on 28-7-2009 by titorite]

reply to post by titorite


Have you ever even worked with boxcutters? Those are razorblades in those things. I work with them most everyday, they can do an awful lot of damage by accident, much less with intent.

Very easy to say, "I'd take the cut, then disarm them..." Less easy to do. None of those pilots, and very few flying today, are trained commandos. Taught how to fight in the closed confines of a room not a great deal larger than a phone booth. That take a special sort of mind set. Even if you win the fight, your going to be hurt, probably severly. The hijackers have every advantage... Surprise, Training, and Attitude. They intended to die from the getgo, so they flat didn't care. Good luck dealing with someone who won't stop coming, won't give in, and doesn't care whether he lives or dies.

Go ahead, tell me again how you'd just casually take the cut delivered with the full force of a human being behind it, and then just as casually disarm him, but oh wait, there's two others. Yep, disarm them too, then undoubtably, just as casually land the plane and be the hero of the day...

Spare me.

You're the pilot, you've just taken off from Logan... Everything is going according to the flight plan, and you are forseeing a rather uneventful flight to California, land of sunshine and babes...

Suddenly, there's a commotion in the back, and two, maybe it was three men have rushed into the cockpit, behind them is the body of a flight attendant who undoubtably tried to stop them, she or he is lying in a pool of his or her own blood, bleeding out from a severed artery.

You have, maybe, a second, or if you're truely lucky, two to not only figure out what's going on, but to formulate a plan to deal with it. Only problem is...no training, no experiance...no chance. If they were lucky, they were dead before they reached the WTC. If not, they got to witness the perversion of everything an airline pilot is sworn to do. Get his passengers home safely.

Go ahead and tell me again, how you'd supercommando them again?

reply to post by seagull


As a mater of fact I DO work with box cutters every day.

But you failed to address all of my questions seagull.. Questions about cell phones and radars and civilians giving Firefighters orders that they could not obey even if they were inclined to obey civilians.

Why do you avoid all those nagging pesky little questions and focus on the box cutter?

And yes If saving a life meant severing a few tendons in the hand then I would certainly do so.

Yeah I can look back in hindsight and say all this from my side of the screen and it don't mean much. I got that. But did you get everything else I brought up? Do you have any firefighters in your family? Do you know anything about how cell phones work? Did you know the Eastern seaboard of the US is the most monitored airspace in the world?

DO YOU KNOW THESE THINGS?

You wanna play by the OS answer some of my questions I first asked in the post prior to this one.

And no, I do not fear a box cutter. I fear drunk drivers more than I fear a jerk with a box cutter and bad intentions. Why dont we stop discussing the box cutter a moment and address some of my other questions. Like how the Air Traffic Control loses the air planes from radar for even a minute? I aint talking about their IFFs either I am just talking about their radar signature.

[edit on 28-7-2009 by titorite]

reply to post by titorite


I'm not addressing those particular issues, because they lie well outside my area of expertise. Any opinion I voiced is certainly going to be illinformed.

I have questions too concerning that particular day. Most have been answered to my satisfaction.

I do love how you casually disregard a severed tendon...that would make dispatching the three goons somewhat more problamatic than you're saying.

Well anyway, we will undoubtably have to agree to disagree on this topic.

reply to post by titorite

You wanna explain how 2001 cell phones can make calls at 20,000 feet?

They didn't, and they still don't. You're confusing cell phones with the AirFone that was installed in the seatbacks of the airplanes.

AA and UA were some of the first to equip their domestic widebodies with these phones. Heck, even Continental had 'em, back in the 1990s...but, then, just two, cordless ones, one for each cabin.

Can you tell me how those planes completely disappeared off radar for ANY amount of time?

When the transponder signal isn't received, the 'data block' on the Radar goes into what's called 'coast' mode. The computer extrapolates the last known altitude and track, for a while, until the transponder is re-acquired. BUT, after a length of time, the data block will disappear from the scope.

However, finding a particular 'primary' target (no transponder info) when you don't know exactly where to look, and depending on Radar antenna location and accuracy, AND distinguishing the 'primary' target of an airplane from background clutter....

You do know that the eastern seaboard is the most heavily monitored airspace right?

Well, you see, that's another one of those red herrings that OS haters like to bring up. The Eastern Seaboard is the most densely trafficked, so in that sense it's 'heavily monitored'. However, in any event, you should note that the actual take-overs occured well outside of the Eastern Seaboard airspace.

Can you explain how they turned those planes around and flew back to their targets with no help from the Air Traffic control?

Not sure seagull can, but I can. In fact, I could show YOU how, if I could just sit you down in a simulator for about 15 minutes, and do it with you. Here's a hint: Even without using the data in the Flight Management System, onboard, if you're over Ohio, and you turn the airplane Eastbound, eventually you will find the East Coast!

Its not like clouds make great land marks...

NO, of course not. But the LAND is a great landmark.

Sorry for 'trolling'....was that YOU accusing people who bring actual information to this thread? Or, if it was someone else, my apologies.

The best way to thoroughly understand ALL of the events of that day is to include ALL of the inputs, verify them for accuracy, and dispose of the hyperbole and innuendo.

The "crucible of truth", if you will......

[edit on 28 July 2009 by weedwhacker]

reply to post by seagull


Agreed. We will agree to disagree. I will say this much though. Taking a stab is not something done casually as you are putting it. It is a last resort sort of thing. The chance that one might lose 100 % use of the hand is not something lost on me... But again we are talking about trading a hand for a life... I think the choice is clear.....And it is easier to talking about taking a stab to the hand rather than a dislocation of the wrist/elbow for brevitys sake. Just to help with the mental image of what could of been done vrs what one was up against.

I think it is a shame you don't wanna take a stab at my other questions...(pun intended) They are the nagging inconsistencies of 911 and if you lack knowledge about something well then, your online,....educating yourself is not a that hard. Not trying to be mean here I'm just saying if you don't know something about Cell phones or ATC you can do yahoo answers, or wiki or a variety of other searches.

If your thirst for knowledge is insatiable then the internet is the right place to learn more about anything. Practical appliance of said knowledge is another thing but all the book smarts you want is right here.


At any rate... You have your view and I have mine and I shall accept yours as I keep my own view.

How many of you have actually walked around NYC and gone into buildings, both before and after 9/11?

You can not just walk into a building, carry a bunch of stuff (suitcases, briefcases, boxes, etc) and begin depositing them around a building.

I have attended numerous meetings througout the city and I can tell you first hand that every single one I have been to has security, receptionists, and front desk personnel.

You go through an entire process to attend a meeting. Now, you can argue that there were people on the inside that were also in on it, but how many people can possibly be in on something without someone sounding the alarm and throwing them all under the bus?

Now, if they did it at night, don't you think one of the janitors would have said: "hey, I noticed all of these boxes last night that I hadn't seen before...." And no, he wouldn't have been dead because he works the night shift and they are all gone well before the next day begins and the next crew takes over.

Lastly, there are always people in these buildings all the time -- no matter what day or time. It's not as if they close at 6pm, and nobody gets in again until 9AM. There are always people working, cleaning, in the gym, eating, etc.

reply to post by titorite


[redacted for personal reasons]

[edit on 28 July 2009 by weedwhacker]

reply to post by SPreston


Can you please tell me then, based on your theory of plane-swapping and such, where my two former co-workers, that were on-board the plane that crashed into the south (second) tower actually died?

That's what I can never figure out.