Are atheists more intelligent than religious believers? Study suggests such a correlation

reply to post by Joecroft

Hey Mirabilis! At last…we meet on a thread…

hey! we never do - do we? :-) funny

It’s a hard life being an agnostic,

we are the village idiots (I choose fool on the hill - on days when my self esteem is running high and I'm feeling very full of myself)

it’s like your fighting a battle on two fronts.

it would be nice to have only one set of doubts for a change

people don't know how lucky they are sometimes :-)

Good to see you around Spira

very good to see you too Joecroft - we should do this more often

:-)



[edit on 8/6/2009 by Spiramirabilis]

Humour is an aspect of intelligence. You've seen that wah? look some people get on their faces when everybody else bursts out laughing. The look that says: I don't understand. Poor oafs. Everyone else gets the joke but they can't, because they lack that particular form of intelligence.


Mindful of this, I call it no coincidence that the Devil has all the funniest jokes, just as he has the best tunes (and the best writers too - eh, mamabeth?)

Funniest jokes,you and monkey of chaos!
best tunes? I destroyed all my rock music years ago.
best writers,monkey of chaos,he makes his father proud.
me,remember...I'm too dumb to form any rhyme or reason,according to
you and monkey of chaos.I find this all amusing.
Have a nice day,I enjoyed this little break

Originally posted by mamabeth
best tunes? I destroyed all my rock music years ago.

As Bob Dylan once said to a man who introduced himself as Led Zeppelin's manager, I don't come to you with my troubles, do I?

me,remember...I'm too dumb to form any rhyme or reason,according to
you and monkey of chaos.I find this all amusing.

I don't remember either of us suggesting this, madam. I'm sure you could post something quite reasonable - and possibly even in verse - if only you had a mind to.

Originally posted by AstyanaxAs the lady said, so much for humour.

I just posted this in another thread.

Saying stupid things isn't exactly funny unless you know the person pretty good to know they are being sarcastic or whatever.

As it is, these are internet forums, and many people actually do believe crazy things, or things which normally I might laugh at - so I don't know if someone is being serious or not.

For example, I say really mean things to my wife, and she does it back. If someone was just walking by us, they might think we were just 2 of the most hateful people in the world and didn't like each other at all. But we know we aren't being serious, so what would normally be considered abusive language becomes humorous to us.

But now if some lady is walking down the street and I start talking to her in the same manner, well she isn't going to think it's funny. She doesn't know me, she has no clue that I'm not being serious and so forth.

Am I going to say the lady lacks intelligence for it? No, I'd be the one lacking in intelligence.

Part of humor is knowing the environment you are in and how it will be perceived IMO.

reply to post by mamabeth



That's what I said I suspected, your writing did not really explain that though - "birthing pains" is something that is a natural course of experience that most women will go through. That sort of implies that the Holocaust was necessary for Israel to form.

Ofcourse you don't mean that, but that's how it reads...

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


Such a view is a speculative conjecture at best - it is an obvious form of escapism designed to help people tolerate the rigors and trying experience that is physical existence - ie: life

The worst version, or attempt, at this is "eternal happiness" in paradise, or forever having god watching your every move like Big Brother, in the Christian after-life.

The idea of an after-life, oddly enough, is not really a big concern in Judaism.
As I was reading my freshly purchased TIME special edition - "Your Brain, a User's Guide" - last night on my plane, it revealed to me that Judaism
puts worth and measure on things you do in this life.
How you treat people here and now - not that you will make up for your mistakes under the eternal sun.
That time here on earth is precious, and you should not be wasting it worrying about divine judgement after you die.

For a religion that basically birthed both Islam and Christianity, I found that amazing - it is fundamentally at odds with the other two.
It lacks much detail or even direction on the topic of an after-life.
I did not even know that.

Judaism went up a few notches in my books after I read that.


Also of note: this magazine's headline discussion was about human consciousness and where it originates in the human mind.

The specific article started out with a detailed story of a poor woman who ended up in the harshly termed "vegetative" state, after a car accident.

Doctors and neuroscientists decided to examine whether she is still conscious in her little control room, behind her eyes.

They hooked her up to an MRI machine which tracked bloodflow in her brain and asked her personal, thought invoking questions.
Sure enough, the MRI scan mimicked those of normal, conscious people, who do not reside in a machine that does not work.

She was herself, but she was trapped.

It would be like a crane operator who whose crane ran out of petrol.
He/she can push as many levers and bang as many buttons as liked, but the crane ain't gonna move.

The rest of the article touched on the core principles that neuroscience and philosophers alike are trying to deal with.
David Chalmers coined the two connected issues as:

The Easy Problem of Consciousness - "Explaining the ability to discriminate, integrate information, report mental states, focus attention, etc. Easy problems are easy because all that is required for their solution is to specify a mechanism that can perform the function.

and

The Hard Problem of Consciousness - "Why should physical processing give rise to a rich inner life at all?" or
"How is it that some organisms are subjects of experience?" or
"Phenomenal Natures are categorically different from behavior"
which comes in various forms, as you can see.

for lack of a better source...

Very interesting indeed.
The article explained that the Hard Problem's, by nature, philosophical delivery, is a signal to religious apologists to replace consciousness with spiritual, or soul.

That doesn't really get us anywhere. It simply makes the Hard Problem more difficult, because you have replaced a known quantity, with an unknown, unverified quality.

Where does consciousness originate?
If we consider the unbacked, personal conclusions of Media and Omega, it stems from the creator through a poor understanding of Quantum Mechanics - which means we are all influenced and composed of the "first-cause" being.

I think I'd rather consider that the very machine consciousness resides in, is its very creator.

That is a tough statement - it does away with things like after-life, and soul.

I wouldn't be writing this if the article had explained consciousness.
They are still battling the Easy Problem, which we have a pretty decent understanding of.
To connect it then, to the Hard Problem, is a whole new ball-game.

My thoughts are that, should we discover what/which mechanisms provide us with our subjective experience, to then integrate that experience into AI would be ground-breaking. The exponential growth of technology and science at that point would be immense.
AI would overtake us in every way possible. That is as fascinating, as it is scary.

The end of the article toyed with the proposition - by finally figuring consciousness out, would we then find it no longer exists?

If AI is conscious, then consciousness is no longer our golden standard to separate us from the rest of the organisms on this planet (though it is clear various animals do already exhibit consciousness on a similar level).







[edit on 6-8-2009 by makinho21]

[edit on 6-8-2009 by makinho21]

reply to post by makinho21

Very interesting and thoughtful post. I would speculate that the answer to the hard problem will likely be found, where so many of the other answers to the Big Questions are found: in biology. These answers aren't always viscerally satisfying, but they do have the virtue of being rather probable. I guess consciousness is an evolved character. For automotans with high data-processing capacity, consciousness (rather than the lack of it) may promote survival and reproduction. Makes sense if you, er, think of it.

By the way, i must add that the thought of Mamabeth 'watching us' is going to make me fearfully sweaty and guilty and paranoid tonight, like Milton's Satan writhing fricasséed but unrepentant while God goes

This thread has wandered hilariously off topic. I love it.

Originally posted by badmedia
Saying stupid things isn't exactly funny.

Saying stupid things is never funny unless there are cruel people present (like me).

Saying funny things, on the other hand, is exactly funny.

As it is, these are internet forums, and many people actually do believe crazy things, or things which normally I might laugh at - so I don't know if someone is being serious or not.

Come now, Badmedia, do you take me for a yokel?

For example, I say really mean things to my wife, and she does it back. If someone was just walking by us, they might think we were just 2 of the most hateful people in the world and didn't like each other at all. But we know we aren't being serious, so what would normally be considered abusive language becomes humorous to us.

That's very sweet.

But now if some lady is walking down the street and I start talking to her in the same manner, well she isn't going to think it's funny. She doesn't know me, she has no clue that I'm not being serious and so forth.

Well, yes, of course.

Part of humor is knowing the environment you are in and how it will be perceived IMO.

No. You've got that one quite wrong, I'm afraid.

[edit on 6/8/09 by Astyanax]

reply to post by Astyanax


I don't know you, that is the point. And take a look at the kind of forums we are on. How am I supposed to know if someone is joking or not considering some of the crap people post on here?

Am I supposed to take this thread as a joke, or seriously?

McDonald's Alien Agenda...Delivered On Your Next Kid's Meal!

How about that "You are an alien" thread, or all that GFL stuff?

Check out this video from that McDonalds thread.



I'd love to believe that is a joke, but some people really are this freaking dumb.

If I knew you better and so forth, then sure I could tell if you were joking or not. But I don't. And since people constantly post crazy stuff, I honestly have no way of knowing what people actually believe, other than some people believe some crazy out there things - you think what I believe is crazy and such even.

Sure, I might would think it were funny that people actually believe some of the things they say - if it weren't so dang sad.

So you got me there, I guess I must be stupid because around here, I can't tell the difference.

[edit on 8/6/2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


Hey, don't blame me for your limitations. And who says suffering has to be something that was intentionally built into the system but is more a by product of the system? I can't think of a natural system that could work without death. Can you?

Originally posted by mamabeth


Humour is an aspect of intelligence. You've seen that wah? look some people get on their faces when everybody else bursts out laughing. The look that says: I don't understand. Poor oafs. Everyone else gets the joke but they can't, because they lack that particular form of intelligence.


Mindful of this, I call it no coincidence that the Devil has all the funniest jokes, just as he has the best tunes (and the best writers too - eh, mamabeth?)

Funniest jokes,you and monkey of chaos!
best tunes? I destroyed all my rock music years ago.
best writers,monkey of chaos,he makes his father proud.
me,remember...I'm too dumb to form any rhyme or reason,according to
you and monkey of chaos.I find this all amusing.
Have a nice day,I enjoyed this little break

Golly, be that a compliment hidden away underneath all that clowning?
I jest good lass; however, if what ye say is true, perhaps I should write me-self a book?

I've already picked a fine pseudonym - "Timofey Eskono Hamach"
"I am the Monkey of Chaos"

...that's the best I could do for now. Could be a classic no?

[edit on 6-8-2009 by makinho21]

reply to post by Astyanax

Very true. My point, however, was that being convinced they have immortal souls doesn't stop people from fearing and doing their best to avoid death and suffering. Completely different end of the stick, you see.

And neither should it. Even if it did exist *I make no real argument either way as I don't know*.

No, that would be you. I didn't attribute any effects to belief in a soul. I pointed out that the effect you implied of it was spurious.

Um, yes you did. Especially considering I never implied anything. Not that I expect anyone least of all you to see past the end of your ideological nose.

By using my eyes, my ears and my brain.

Selectively you mean. As in the common human failing of only allowing information complementary to their stance to penetrate. Dismissing anything else spuriously as not worth consideration.

No, you messed up on that one too. Tough luck.

Then I would love to hear your real stance. But I imagine you will avoid answering the challenge. It's all well and good to throw out such responses as you have but it doesn't have any real meat to it now does it? Except as an attempt to anger me.

reply to post by makinho21


Yet there are cases in support of the existance of a soul. But naturally you leave those out.

And please don't tell me I am trying to say there is a soul as I don't know either way.

[edit on 6-8-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Originally posted by Astyanax

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
Yet in the view that one posesses a immortal soul what is physical suffering and physical death?

I will break my usual rule concerning you and reply. The question deserves it.

That's a very wise rule, I wish I had adopted it earlier lol (sure would have saved a hell of a lot of time). Might as well argue against a brick wall .

Originally posted by Astyanax
These are the real and horrific consequence of the view that, if one possesses an immortal soul, physical suffering is irrelevant.

That's a good point to bring up. Christians believe that their bodies are, in a sense, dead (or crucified). All that matters is the soul. But the reality, when you actually feel pain, is very different indeed.

Originally posted by makinho21

Originally posted by mamabeth


Humour is an aspect of intelligence. You've seen that wah? look some people get on their faces when everybody else bursts out laughing. The look that says: I don't understand. Poor oafs. Everyone else gets the joke but they can't, because they lack that particular form of intelligence.


Mindful of this, I call it no coincidence that the Devil has all the funniest jokes, just as he has the best tunes (and the best writers too - eh, mamabeth?)

Funniest jokes,you and monkey of chaos!
best tunes? I destroyed all my rock music years ago.
best writers,monkey of chaos,he makes his father proud.
me,remember...I'm too dumb to form any rhyme or reason,according to
you and monkey of chaos.I find this all amusing.
Have a nice day,I enjoyed this little break

Golly, be that a compliment hidden away underneath all that clowning?
I jest good lass; however, if what ye say is true, perhaps I should write me-self a book?

I've already picked a fine pseudonym - "Timofey Eskono Hamach"
"I am the Monkey of Chaos"

...that's the best I could do for now. Could be a classic no?

[edit on 6-8-2009 by makinho21]



Go for it! We need better comic books!

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

Hey, don't blame me for your limitations. And who says suffering has to be something that was intentionally built into the system but is more a by product of the system? I can't think of a natural system that could work without death. Can you?

since you won't be seeing this...matters not what I say or ask I suppose...

:-)

but I wonder - limitations?

am I limited by my wish that living things not suffer?

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
since you won't be seeing this...matters not what I say or ask I suppose...

:-)

but I wonder - limitations?

am I limited by my wish that living things not suffer?

I'd say just the opposite.
Sympathy is an important trait, and many times only when we feel pain do we understand just how important.
But if there is any upside to suffering, it's that it reminds us of what we have in common as living beings. And in such a state of mind, our personal beliefs seem less and less relevant compared to the bigger picture.

reply to post by TruthParadox

But if there is any upside to suffering, it's that it reminds us of what we have in common as living beings.

I know you're right :-)

empathy - what would we be without it?

I know the answer to that question - it's something I can't let myself think about too much

Originally posted by badmedia

OMG that was FUNNY!

[edit on 7-8-2009 by OmegaPoint]

reply to post by TruthParadox


Obviously not the limitations I was talking about............