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Are atheists more intelligent than religious believers? Study suggests such a correlation

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posted on Aug, 2 2009 @ 09:26 PM
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Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by badmedia
 

No I was more pointing out the pointlessness of declaring "I know truth." when it's completely unverifiable. It's made all the more pointless by actually telling people not to accept it.


Exactly, why do you even post then Media? If you recognize nothing you say makes a single bit of difference, why bother coming on here and insulting people. You merely make yourself look like a fool.

I could really care less if you are impressed or not. Nothing you have brought to the table counts as evidence towards the spiritual, and you, admittedly, realize this.
The fact I do admit I don't know for absolute certainty, is something you can't do. You 'know' you have discovered some profound truth - an understanding as you put it - yet we won't be able to comprehend your writing til we arrive at the understanding ourselves? Mumbo jumbo....
That is religious arrogance at it's finest.

How many times how you told us how smart and intelligently superior you are?
I have not once made such a dumb claim - your first post told us about how you had a high IQ of rare occurrence.

This last post of yours is like the post by Matrix Traveller, where he tries to explain to us he knows some hidden secret about the "theory of light", but when questioned, responds "You are simply conforming to accepted explanations, and I am not allowed to actually tell you the secret - you have to find out for yourself".

www.abovetopsecret.com...

He is confronted by truth on the first reply to his post, and he then backs out with that pathetic cop-out.
Which is exactly what you have done, numerous times over.

You are simply too high and mighty to consider you maybe wrong.
That is why your stance will never be considered falsifiable, nor rational.
You don't make predictions that can be observed by people other than yourself.
Science does not support the fog you spew.

You are a not my huckleberry, you are a shrew hiding in the bushes.




posted on Aug, 2 2009 @ 09:31 PM
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Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by mamabeth
 


I know that Christ is a title.In hebrew His name is Yeshua,in english it's
Jesus.

I would argue that since 'Jesus' comes from the Greek bastardisation of the Hebrew that that is therefore not his name and should not be used. Yeshua, after all, also is the root of Joshua. Might as well call him that - it's not bastardised.


I have no intention of wearing a suicide belt and blowing everyone up.

But you are willing to die for faith.


The christian faith considers suicide self murder and is forbidden.

Some of the 1000's of denominations feature this as their dogma, which I find odd for two reasons. The god of the Bible killed people, left right and centre with the flood and such. He killed almost every newborn son of egypt apparently - and when a woman miscarries or it is stillborn, some priest or pastor will come along and say "God giveth and god taketh away." effectively apologising for God doing an abortion without the will of the parents.
Secondly, suicide can be justified. There was a movie I watched awhile ago with Denzel Washington. His son needed a heart transplant but they could not afford anything, but the end of it Washington was lying on a stretcher with a gun to his head so his son could have his heart.
There is also euthanasia, relieving the suffering of people on the way out the door (particularly gruelling and painful) then Euthanasia is perfectly reasonable.

..Not that I think suicide bombers are reasonable, but more that this kind of extreme fundamentalism leads to unreasonable thinking.


If someone puts a gun to my head and tells me to deny Jesus or die.
Guess what I would do? That is what I'm talking about,do you understand?



posted on Aug, 2 2009 @ 09:41 PM
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reply to post by Welfhard
 


I read from the KJV Bible and a jewish New Testament.In the jewish
new testament they use the name Yeshua for Jesus.



posted on Aug, 2 2009 @ 10:07 PM
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reply to post by Welfhard
 


BadMedia again needs to belittle in order to triumph. Hurray for arrogance!
As he has done in every other post, he speaks from atop his divine pedestal, with the knowledge that we - the lesser minded folk - do not possess the means to understand the hidden truth he spreads. Perhaps that is why he continues to refer to himself as a small, round fruit - he is hoping to root the spiritual in all of us.



posted on Aug, 2 2009 @ 10:16 PM
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Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by badmedia
 


Please don't throw wisdom quotes at me if you do not understand their meaning.

That's a little out of left field. This isn't about wisdom quotes, I was pointing the stupidity of saying "I know truth" as you did.

No need to be insulting, this thread really seems to have gotten your back up.


I would say that is a wisdom quote, as it was pointing out what is wise.

You were using it in a manner to which it would be impossible for someone to know the truth. Not what it means.



posted on Aug, 2 2009 @ 10:28 PM
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reply to post by makinho21
 


Why do I post? Simple - I plant seeds. See, while you will consciously rejected and object to the things I say, over time you will start to see the things I talk about being presented to you. And when you see them, then you won't be able to ignore them. At which point the thoughts and such will grow, and the brain won't let them go until the questions and doubt within are answered.

Much like planting a tree, I do not expect the tree to grow instantly. But over time, and with a little water(experiences etc), I do expect the tree will grow.

As well, I gain the "water" for my own seeds by listening and debating other points of views and understanding. While I might not agree with welfard and others, I still gained from the experience in other ways. But mostly because he was presenting his own understanding. And who knows, maybe he has planted some seeds for me in the process - time will tell.

Personally, I find debate and arguments healthy. And so I actually look for people who will disagree to pick a debate with, rather than sitting around a bunch of like minded people, who sit around patting each other on the back as a means of supporting their own delusions.

Why do you post? To get people to believe as you do?



posted on Aug, 2 2009 @ 10:34 PM
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Originally posted by makinho21
BadMedia again needs to belittle in order to triumph. Hurray for arrogance!
As he has done in every other post, he speaks from atop his divine pedestal, with the knowledge that we - the lesser minded folk - do not possess the means to understand the hidden truth he spreads. Perhaps that is why he continues to refer to himself as a small, round fruit - he is hoping to root the spiritual in all of us.


And it is human nature to deny in others what we ourselves lack. While you will find it easy to ridicule me and such, what are you going to say if you one day find out I am telling the truth?

Do you know the difference between arrogance and confidence? If Einstein walked in a room and started talking about things, would you treat him in the same manner? Would it be arrogant of him to assume you didn't understand what he was talking about?

Do you think you are the first to accuse me of such things? I've been called it a know it all probably thousands of times. I don't care at all. It's a topic I study and spend a good bit of time on. When I know about a topic, I participate. When I don't know about a topic, I shut up and listen and maybe ask a few questions.



posted on Aug, 2 2009 @ 10:45 PM
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reply to post by makinho21
 


Sorry, didn't read through the whole thread or even the entire OP, but YES, atheists are more intelligent. Besides Buddhism, most religions are more about worship than intelligent evolution. Most religious people actually think 6000 years is a long time. How can you have a meaningly conversation with a person like that?



posted on Aug, 2 2009 @ 10:59 PM
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reply to post by truthtothemasses
 


You do realize you are just using a form of collectivism, and using the worse examples of a group you can find as a way of painting everyone as being as such, while at the same time using the best examples you can find for you own side, and painting them all as such?

Christianity is not the same thing as God.






posted on Aug, 2 2009 @ 11:11 PM
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reply to post by badmedia
 


Anybody that limits their potential here on earth are less intelligent. Atheists are freer to evolve than a christian who self-suppresses himself. Sorry, but our bodies eventually stop evolving, but our minds never do unless you suppress it in order to "fit in" into a current social structure.



posted on Aug, 2 2009 @ 11:25 PM
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reply to post by truthtothemasses
 


There are 2 ways you can accept something as an authority. You can believe it, or yuo can not believe. Those who really manipulate could honestly care less which "side" you pick, so long as you pick a side and debate off their authority and claims.

This sticks people into duality, in which each side becomes a bunch of hypocrites, who each play the evil for the other side. Each side will point out the flaws in the other side, while only looking at the good qualities of their own side. Each side is extremely sure that if they get rid of the other side, the problems will go away. But in action, both are really the same.

To me, ultimately both atheists and religious people are the same. They simply accept, but do not understand.

The only way to get out of that wheel of duality is to step outside of it and look at both sides. Take the whole middle east war. If people would simple step out of the wheel, take a look at things from both sides, they would see in action they act alike. And that is those who commit and promote those actions who cause the evil of the world. Don't be that guy.



posted on Aug, 2 2009 @ 11:41 PM
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Reply to post by truthtothemasses
 


Marrying one's self to an absolute as both atheists and theists do is not intelligence. Especially at this juncture of our development. I would argue both sides are fools just one side is obcessed with seeming intelligent thus studies like in the OP.


 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 



posted on Aug, 3 2009 @ 12:19 AM
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Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by truthtothemasses
 


There are 2 ways you can accept something as an authority. You can believe it, or yuo can not believe. Those who really manipulate could honestly care less which "side" you pick, so long as you pick a side and debate off their authority and claims.

This sticks people into duality, in which each side becomes a bunch of hypocrites, who each play the evil for the other side. Each side will point out the flaws in the other side, while only looking at the good qualities of their own side. Each side is extremely sure that if they get rid of the other side, the problems will go away. But in action, both are really the same.

To me, ultimately both atheists and religious people are the same. They simply accept, but do not understand.

The only way to get out of that wheel of duality is to step outside of it and look at both sides. Take the whole middle east war. If people would simple step out of the wheel, take a look at things from both sides, they would see in action they act alike. And that is those who commit and promote those actions who cause the evil of the world. Don't be that guy.



I agree with most of what you said here. We all have this duality, but why???

The duality is created. This duality is created in nature. Why is this?

Religion just confuses it all.

We are given the ability to understand why we are here. To get close to the it/source/god, etc. whatever you what to call it. Most of modern religion hinders the ability to find this "truth". Why?

This duality in man(in a cooperative sense) doesn't have to be there. No way can man coincide in peace and harmony in today's current mess/social structure. There is a reason. Man created it.

Sorry, I'm confusing myself. We have the ability to not have duality by not accepting the current hateful/suppressful social structure? But why do we do it? Fear??

I answered my own question. But fear has many forms.

Sorry, I zoned out there my friend. I'm going to have to leave you this for now.



posted on Aug, 3 2009 @ 12:24 AM
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I just wanted to let everyone know that I have just found profound wisdom and meaning in my life. I want to share it with you all, my fellow ATS members. Permit me if you will to share with one and all.

"The president of the United States (Bush at the time) has claimed, on more than one occasion, to be in dialogue with God. If he said that he was talking to God through his hairdryer, this would precipitate a national emergency. I fail to see how the addition of a hairdryer makes the claim more ridiculous or offensive." -Sam Harris

The Author Sam Harris has definitely helped me to find The Father.

His wisdom is great and his words are pure. I hope you all can find the hidden meaning in his works and spread the gospels of Sam.



posted on Aug, 3 2009 @ 12:30 AM
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A couple of books I would recommend to the atheists, would be

"The God Theory" by Bernard Haisch
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1249274834&sr=8-1

Haisch is an astrophysicist whose professional positions include Staff Scientist at the Lockheed Martin Solar and Astrophysics Laboratory, Deputy Director for the Center for Extreme Ultraviolet Astrophysics at the University of California, Berkeley, and Visiting Fellow at the Max-Planck Institute for Extraterrestrial Physics in Garching, Germany. His work has led to close involvement with NASA; he is the author of over 130 scientific papers; and was the Scientific Editor of the Astrophysical Journal for nine years, as well as the editor in chief of the Journal of Scientific Exploration.

an excerpt



If you think of whitte light as a metaphor of infinite, formless potential, the colors on a slide or frame of film become a structured reality grounded in the polarity that comes about through intelligent subtraction from that absolute formless potential. It results from the limitation of the unlimited. I contend that this metaphor provides a comprehensible theory for the creation of a manifest reality (our universe) from the selective limitation of infinite potential (God)...
If there exists an absolute realm that consists of infinite potential out of which a created realm of polarity emerges, is there any sensible reason not to call this "God"? Or to put it frankly, if the absolute is not God, what is it? For our purposes here, I will indentify the Absolute with God. More precisely I will call the Absolute the Godhead. Applying this new terminology to the optics analogy, we can conclude that our physical universe comes about when the Godhead selectively limits itself, taking on the role of Creator and manifesting a realm of space and time and, within that realm, filtering out some of its own infinite potential...
Viewed this way, the process of creation is the exact opposite of making something out of nothing. It is, on the contrary, a filtering process that makes something our of everything. Creation is not capricious or random addition; it is intelligent and selective subtraction. The implications of this are profound. If the Absolute in the Godhead, and if creation is the process by which the Godhead filters our parts of its own infinite potential to manifest a physical reality that supports experience, then the stuff that is left over, the residue of this process, is our physical universe, and ourselves included. We are nothing less than a part of that Godhead - quite literally.

Next, by Ervin Laszlo

Science and the Akashic Field, an Integral Theory of Everything, 2004
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1249275852&sr=8-1

And, his other seminal work
Science and the Reenchantment of the Cosmos: The Rise of the Integral Vision of Reality
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1249275852&sr=8-6

Ervin Laszlo is considered one of the foremost thinkers and scientists of our age, perhaps the greatest mind since Einstein. His principal focus of research involves the Zero Point Field. He is the author of around seventy five books (his works having been translated into at least seventeen languages), and he has contributed to over 400 papers. Widely considered the father of systems philosophy and general evolution theory, he has worked as an advisor to the Director-General of the United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization. He was also nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in both 2004 and 2005. A multidisciplinarian, Laszlo has straddled numerous fields, having worked at universities as a professor of philosophy, music, futures studies, systems science, peace studies, and evolutionary studies. He was a sucessful concert pianist until he was thirty eight.

In his view, the zero-point field (or the Akashic Field, as he calls it) is quite literally the "mind of God".

Naming Hal Puthoff, Roger Penrose, Fritz-Albert Popp, and a handful of others as "front line investigators", Laszlo quotes Puthoff who says of the new scientific paradigm:



[What] would emerge would be an increased understanding that all of us are immersed, both as living and physical beings, in an overall interpenetrating and interdependant field in ecological balance with the cosmos as a whole, and that even the boundary lines between the physical and "metaphysical" would dissolve into a unitary viewpoint of the universe as a fluid, changing, energetic/informational cosmological unity."

an excert from Science and the Akashic Field, an Integral Theory of Everything



Akasha (a . ka . sha) is a Sanskrit word meaning "ether": all-pervasive space. Originally signifying "radiation" or "brilliance", in Indian philosophy akasha was considered the first and most fundamental of the five elements - the others being vata (air), agni (fire), ap (water), and prithivi (earth). Akasha embraces the properties of all five elements: it is the womb from which everything we percieve with our senses has emerged and into which everything will ultimately re-descend. The Akashic Record (also called The Akashic Chronicle) is the enduring record of all that happens, and has ever happened, in space and time."

Laszlo's view of the history of the universe is of a series of universes that rise and fall, but are each "in-formed" by the existence of the previous one. In Laszlo's mind, the universe is becoming more and more in-formed, and within the physical universe, matter (which is the crystallization of intersecting pressure waves or an interference pattern moving through the zero-point field) is becoming increasing in-formed and evolving toward higher forms of consciousness and realization.

a liitle more to follow, so that people can get the whole picture of the new paradigm of sicentific inquiry and why it involves the "mind of God"..

No need to listen to the likes of me or badmedia - listen to the leading thinkers of our time, and do not cling to the atheist position which is becoming less tenable by the day.



posted on Aug, 3 2009 @ 12:36 AM
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Originally posted by TurkeyBurgers
I just wanted to let everyone know that I have just found profound wisdom and meaning in my life. I want to share it with you all, my fellow ATS members. Permit me if you will to share with one and all.

"The president of the United States (Bush at the time) has claimed, on more than one occasion, to be in dialogue with God. If he said that he was talking to God through his hairdryer, this would precipitate a national emergency. I fail to see how the addition of a hairdryer makes the claim more ridiculous or offensive." -Sam Harris

The Author Sam Harris has definitely helped me to find The Father.

His wisdom is great and his words are pure. I hope you all can find the hidden meaning in his works and spread the gospels of Sam.


I'm gonna guess this was satire, but it wasn't very good. I can give you some tips!



posted on Aug, 3 2009 @ 12:45 AM
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reply to post by truthtothemasses
 


I am serious.

Sam Harris is The Father.

His Wisdom is profound. His words are true. I wish for everyone to know The Father Sam Harris like I have learned of him. Someday I will make the pilgrimage to go and listen to his lectures in person. He has two works out. I hope that you can learn in time to know The Father Sam Harris as well as I do. I will leave some more of The fathers great words of wisdom so you can know him also.

"When considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one isn't. Religion is one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies."— Sam Harris , Letter to a Christian Nation

"It is merely an accident of history that it is considered normal in our society to believe that the Creator of the universe can hear your thoughts while it is demonstrative of mental illness to believe that he is communicating with you by having the rain tap in Morse code on your bedroom window." -Sam Harris , The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason

"The moral truth here is obvious: anyone who feels that the interests of a blastocyst just might supersede the interests of a child with a spinal cord injury has had his moral sense blinded by religious metaphysics."
— Sam Harris , Letter to a Christian Nation

"In fact, "atheism" is a term that should not even exist. No one ever needs to identify himself as a "non-astrologer" or a "non-alchemist." We do not have words for people who doubt that Elvis is still alive or that aliens have traversed the galaxy only to molest ranchers and their cattle. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs."
— Sam Harris , Letter to a Christian Nation

The father Sam Harris has brought profound wisdom to all of Mankind. I hope you also can find The Father in his great works.



posted on Aug, 3 2009 @ 01:22 AM
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reply to post by OmegaPoint
 


Great stuff, that is exactly what I'm talking about. I had no idea there were any scientist that far into it yet.



posted on Aug, 3 2009 @ 01:23 AM
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In discussing the metaphysical implications of the identification of the zero-point field, Laszlo specifically notes the fact that it can contain an infinite number of "waves" of information:


This conception corresponds to a perennial intuition also articulated in Hindu Cosmology. There the almost infinitely varied things and forms of the manifest world are united in an essential oneness at a deeper level. At the fundamental level of reality the forms of existing things dissolve into formlessness, living organisms exist in a state of pure potentiality, and dynamic functions condense into static stillness. All attributes of the manifest world merge into a state beyond attributes. Time, space, and causality, are transcended in a state of pure being; the state of Brahman. Absolute reality is the reality of Brahman; the manifest world enjoys but a derived, secondary reality - mistaking it for the real, is the illusion of maya.

On the mind and the human being


A comparatively evolved system, such as the human, has a comparatively evolved brain and thus a correspondingly articulated mental potential. The endows the human brain with a highly evolved capacity for recieving sensory signals from the manifest domain, and nonsensory in-formation from the virtual domain [ie: the zero-point field]. In regard to the latter, the brain is genetically informed by the wave function of the universe and specifically in-formed by the wave function of the social and ecological systems in which the individual participates. Sensory information constitutes the familiar contents of everyday experience, whereas nonsensory information, in modern societies generally repressed, comes to light mainly in the form of intuitions, images, archetypes, and the seemingly anomalous contents of altered-state experience.

He goes on to state that


The altered-state interconnection of human consciousness with the world at large is of crucial importance for our times (atheists take note). It exhibits a fact that both mainstream science and mainstream public opinion has long disregarded; that our mind is spontaneously linked with other minds, and even with the cosmos as a whole.

On evolution, consciousness, and God


Evolution, we should note, realizes a twofold potential in the cosmos; a physical potential for the progressive, although intermittent and non-linear, complexification of manifest entitites; and a mental potential for the intermittent yet progressive evolution of consciousness. These potentials were encoded in the primordial virtual-energy domain. In the maximum concept that domain constitutes [b]the primordial nature of God.
Upon the termination of the evolutionary process - following the "evaporation" of the last remnants of supergalactic structures in the space and time of the last universe - the potentials encoded in the primordial virtual domain achieve final realzation. For the maximum concept the completely in-formed virtual-energy domain constitutes the consequent nature of God.

Until finally, as Laszlo mystically envisages it:


In the course of innumerable universes, the pulsating Metaverse realizes all that the primeval plenum held in potential. The plenum is no longer formless; its surface is of unimaginable complexity and coherence; its depth is FULLY IN-FORMED (caps by me ie: infinite intelligence). The cosmic proto-consciousness that endowed the primeval plenum with its universe-creative potentials becomes a fully articulated self aware cosmic consciousness - it becomes, and thenceforth eternally is, the self-realized mind of God.

In the words of Paul Davies, "The Mind of God: The Scientific Basis for a Rational World" 1992, we read


I belong to a group of scientists who do not subscribe to a conventional religion but nevertheless deny that the universe is a purposeless accident. Through my scientific work I have come to believe more and more strongly that the physical universe is put together with an ingenuity so astonishing than I cannot accept it merely as brute fact. THere must, it seems to me, be a deeper explanation. Furthermore, I have come to the point of view that mind - ie: conscious awareness of the world - is not a meaningless and incidental quirk of nature, but an absolutely fundamental facet of reality


Now I could go on and on and on with more of these quotes by astute and well researched, well learned brilliant scientists on the reason for the God hypothesis, but what's the point? These posts will probably be just ignored by the closed minded and the hard headed who ASSUME they already know, or that there is no evidence, when all the while they themselves are the evidence and are immersed within it!

It takes a strong minded, rational and scientifically minded person to arrive at the conclusion that the materialist reductionist frame of reference has been utterly transcended, and that indeed, there are metaphysical realities we must contend with, if we are to be honest, and operating in congruent alignment with reality the way it really is.

So I go the other way, and say that the atheists are irrational, close minded people, operating from little more than contempt, prior to investigation - a stance sure to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. Given that we're actuall talking about and dealing with here, such a willful ignorance born of irrational prejudice is well, a disgrace. Just think for a moment of the implications of what these scientists are saying and where the new paradigm of science is heading, and then imagine have already taken a firm position that under no circumstances can there be such a thing as "God", just because you don't like the word God!

To have nothing to be grateful for, no meaning, no purposes, to be nothing but a meat bag, a machine - while dying the most fundamental nature of reality itself..!



"They will see and see again, but never see. Hear and hear again, but never hear."

[edit on 3-8-2009 by OmegaPoint]



posted on Aug, 3 2009 @ 01:41 AM
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reply to post by badmedia
 


You were using it in a manner to which it would be impossible for someone to know the truth.

No, I wasn't and I've outlined this twice. You can have all the truth and understanding you want, but try to pass it off as that, as a 'higher' or absolute true, you will sound indistinguishable from a nutter on the subway.

That is the point of "doubt those who find it."



Why do I post? Simple - I plant seeds.

Good lord, you sound like my dad, pompous.

[edit on 3-8-2009 by Welfhard]




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