ABUSE CRISIS: The Iraq War Will be Defined By Images of Abu Ghraib Abuse.

Echoes of the trying times of the Vietnam era are shuddering through America for those who remember the imagery and rumors of the times. The Vietnam war was dominated by stories of isolated incidents of the atrocities committed by a small percentage of U.S. Soldier's. Now the calls that Iraq is this administration's vietnam seem crystal clear. www.TehranTimes.com Abu Ghraib�s Pictures Evidence of Something Bigger and Uglier By Gwynne Dyer The defining image of the Vietnam war was the naked little girl running down the road crying, her clothes burned off by napalm. The defining image of the Iraq war will probably be Private Lynndie England in a corridor in Abu Ghraib prison, holding a leash attached to a naked Iraqi man lying on the floor. It is the picture that best conveys the contempt that ordinary American soldiers (and the government that sent them) feel for Arab Harsh words form a source we know will be biased, but it's certainly a cold-hard slap in the face for every American who paid attention to the news during the Vietnam war. This will not end well. [Edited on 9-5-2004 by SkepticOverlord] [Edited on 10-5-2004 by SkepticOverlord]

I predict that Abu Ghraib-gate may very well be the straw that breaks the current administration's back next November.

[Edited on 9-5-2004 by HowardRoark]

Originally posted by HowardRoark

I predict that Abu Ghraib-gate may very well be the straw that breaks the current administration's back next November.

[Edited on 9-5-2004 by HowardRoark]

Damn I hope so! I'm getting more and more hopefull as things look more grave for the Bush Admin.

basing everything on one event is rather narrow minded and short sighted at best and ignorant at worst.

war is a terrible thing, POWs are mistreated on all sides as much as we want to think otherwise. i dont like to see people dying, whether its a soldier or an innocent civilian.

this idea that this war will be based on this is the same ignorant notion that because a few GI's acted this way all americans must be this way, which we know simply is not true.

but basing everything on one event is plain wrong. you have to look at everything and make up your mind AFTER its said and done, not take the info that supports your own views and use it to blast your biased views to the world and use a rather large brush to paint a whole situation based on a few idiot's actions.

people see this as "another vietnam" because they want to. in fact lots of wars have been fought the same way...geurilla tactics, atrition...its all old hat people! why not call it another revolutionary war? or another civil war? or another battle of 1812? or another french indian war?

get real!


dead be careful of what you wish for, you just might get it one day. the devil you know is sometimes better than the one you dont.

Originally posted by ThePrankMonkey
this idea that this war will be based on this is the same ignorant notion that because a few GI's acted this way all americans must be this way, which we know simply is not true.

I agree with that. I have heard personally from soldiers over in Iraq who are disgusted with the way that the acts of a few that have painted the rest of them as brutal killers and torturers. In fact, most of what I heard from the Americans over in Iraq is deep upset. By in large, most American troops are working hard to do their difficult jobs over there the right way and are angered at the poor and deplorable conduct of their peers.


.

You know, those that know me know that I rarely if ever back the United States in this 'war'. This is one time though that I will.

Why is it that we have a huge, huge uprising about a picture of our GI's torturing, .... no, not even torturing. TEASING, the Iraqi soldiers, to the point where our stupid ass president apologizes to the whole damn nation of Iraq, yet when they run full blown news coverage of them torturing our soldiers, dragging their dead corpses through the streets, it is fine and dandy?

How in God's name do you explain that?

And if these Iraqi people love us so much, why in the hell do they care what we do with these soldiers? After all, these soldiers are their enemies right?

This is the rare and few times that I will back the United States in this 'war', so don't get used to it. I just think the irony in this war is getting way, way out of hand.

And if these Iraqi people love us so much, why in the hell do they care what we do with these soldiers? After all, these soldiers are their enemies right?

not exactly. i'm sure some are but some have also been forced into service, usually with threats of their familes being killed and their women being raped.

and above and beyond all else they are still fellow iraqi countrymen to them.

i agree with you there is a double standard here though.

but thats the thing about war, its full of double standards. nothing makes sense, good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people. it brings out the worst AND the best in us at times.

Originally posted by ThePrankMonkey
basing everything on one event is rather narrow minded and short sighted at best and ignorant at worst.

this idea that this war will be based on this is the same ignorant notion that because a few GI's acted this way all americans must be this way, which we know simply is not true.

Well, let's not get into knee-jerks here. First, SO did not use a "superlative" statement. He did not say that the war would be "completely defined" by these pics. He stated that the pics would come to be defining pics of this conflict. The Viet Nam pic he used as an example also does not completely define the Viet Nam conflict, but it is a defining pic of that conflict.

Second, he didn't say that that the war would come to be BASED on these pics, but defined by these pics.

I understand what he is saying. I also understand that there is going to be disingenuous political use of these images that will even FURTHER brand them to this conflict...and that's a bit of BS right there.

thats why i didnt say ANYTHING about SO's write up. it is how others are reading it that i posted about. people all over this board have already based their entire perception or for the most part on this single incident alone.

thats what my post is refering to. not SO or his write up.

Originally posted by dz
You know, those that know me know that I rarely if ever back the United States in this 'war'. This is one time though that I will.

Why is it that we have a huge, huge uprising about a picture of our GI's torturing, .... no, not even torturing. TEASING, the Iraqi soldiers, to the point where our stupid ass president apologizes to the whole damn nation of Iraq, yet when they run full blown news coverage of them torturing our soldiers, dragging their dead corpses through the streets, it is fine and dandy?

How in God's name do you explain that?

Well, they weren't just teasing these Iraqis.
Some of them died.

It wasn't fine and dandy when those contractors were dragged through Iraq either. After that incident, they sent troops into that area and hundreds of Iraqis were killed by coalition soldiers. So it's not like that act went unpunished.

Originally posted by ThePrankMonkey

thats what my post is refering to. not SO or his write up.

gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.

I think these pics are going to be used in ways that actually end up obfuscating the acts themselves. And that's a sickening proposition in and of itself.

Originally posted by ThePrankMonkey basing everything on one event is rather narrow minded and short sighted at best and ignorant at worst.

No doubt. But human nature, and especially the way news evolves and focuses on singular events will see this otherwise. The Vietnam war was a tragedy on many levels. Among the most significant of the tragedies is the way thousands of honorable men and women serving in the military were categorically labeled as "baby killers" because of the stories of a few sadistic men. A similar pattern is emerging in this war, and the similarities to the effects the Vietnam war had on our society are astounding.

More protest marches anyone?

There is such a thing as righteous anger. Perhaps there are more people being moved from their apathy and material existence.

People that get involved in organised protests are sometimes labelled at this site as hippies, peaceniks, and victims of behind-the-scenes communist orchestrated destabilisation efforts.

The parallels are indeed striking.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar People that get involved in organised protests are sometimes labelled at this site as hippies, peaceniks, and victims of behind-the-scenes communist orchestrated destabilisation efforts.

Really? I can't recall that type of categorization here. Do you have some examples?

I would point you to them, but the site has grown so much I don't know where to begin. If someone could help out?

There was a thread where a list of sponsoring organisations behind Anti-War protest marches was listed, and all organisations mentioned were socialist or communist in their orientation.

Originally posted by ThePrankMonkey
be careful of what you wish for, you just might get it one day. the devil you know is sometimes better than the one you dont.

The latest, and might I add the most annoying & frequent, retort by all the Bush supporters - "You know how bad Bush & his [mis]administration is......but Kerry might/will be worse!"
I love how the ignorant wrap themselves & find comfort in their fears like a mother's embrace.
The 'rason d'etre' justifing the Iraq debacle was a consistently moving target, with the last image of a reason being "to free the Iraqi people of the torture under the Hussein regime".
That the images ( the latest involving attack dogs on nude prisoners with a full 'before' & bloody 'after' photo string ) prove we are no better in the treatment of whom we consider our enemies, despite the star spangled bluster.
Right now, the proven timeline on the knowledge of these abuses at the highest ranks stretches back at leat 1/2 a year....it's being surmised that it's twice as long.
The sicking thing for me? Is that otherwise honest & rational people will toss out the countless speeches by Bush & his [mis]administration, all of them thumping their breast & pledging that the torture of the Iraqi people must stop & that Saddam "tortured his own people". They'll form instant amnesia about those speeches when people make the comparison between word & action..........and they'll call that POLITICAL
The only similarity to Vietnam to be concerned with?
An American government in power that is filled with arrogance & hubris that willfully ignores all rational thought that contrasts their desired objective.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar There was a thread where a list of sponsoring organisations behind Anti-War protest marches was listed, and all organisations mentioned were socialist or communist in their orientation.

One thread that is more than a year-old, with 13 responses is hardly something to worry about. www.abovetopsecret.com... Boolean Search is your friend: Saved Search

It's more recent. I'll try to dig it out when I have a moment, and add it here.


The thread only reflected the opinion of the author and some supporters, not any position endorsed by ATS, I'm sure.

Eureka! And other expressions of joy at the improvement in my underdeveloped Boolean search skills.

www.abovetopsecret.com...



[Edited on 10-5-2004 by MaskedAvatar]

Mandela speaking at a joint session of both houses of Parliament in a special session to mark the 10th anniversary of his inauguration as the first black president of South Africa:

"We watch as two of the leading democracies, two leading nations of the free world, get involved in a war that the United Nations did not sanction."

"We look on with horror as reports surface of terrible abuses against the dignity of human beings held captive by invading forces in their own country."

"We see how the powerful countries - all of them democracies - manipulate multilateral bodies to the great disadvantage and suffering of the poorer developing nations." "There is enough reason for cynicism and despair.''

Guardian - Mandela Denounces Iraq Prisoner Abuse

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
It's more recent. I'll try to dig it out when I have a moment, and add it here.

Is this the thread you were looking for?
Who is behind the anti-war rallies?