Holy Terror: The Radical Christian Right - 1996 Alternative Views Video, page 3

reply to post by AshleyD

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Atheists influence politics all the time.

I really have not heard of any athiests trying to spread atheism into politics. So by all means please give an example. Not trying to be phasecious... just asking for reference as I am interested in what they would be trying to influence politically...what their goal would be...etc..

Unless you are referring to Darwin, which really wasnt a political thing, as much of a scholastic/ science thing...

But either way, do they (athiests) refer to a book that can be interpreted in many different ways as the guiding principles of the universe and shout out amongst their fellow congregations "that it is not the constitution America is founded, but the Holy book of Gawd"...?

And again my problem doesnt lie with those who wish to worship their deity and abide by the laws of the U.S. It is when they wish to impose their views on others via the political mechanism that I take issue with, and that the video takes issue with.

It is very unfortunate the GOP has been the victims of such a large influence, and I fear it may be the end of them if they don't learn their current style of politics is not what they were founded under and will not work in the progressive world. A good example of the extreme right that have attempted such impositions and gravely miscalculated the rest of the worlds and countries response was the Klu Klux Klan. These people considered themselves warriors of God and thought it was their mission to impose the will of God and carry out his judgement...all based off the Bible. Regardless whether other Christians believe they are "true" or not, they still carry out such acts in the Christian name because of radical interpretations, and had close ties with members of the republican party. There is zero room in politics for such ideologies.


So, the question is when do religious views cross the line in the political arena?

To give you an example of my personal lickening and is a pretty big name is Mike Huckabee. While he is a good example of the right, he doesnt get to close to that line where his interpretations of the Bible come before the rulings of the supreme court and their interpretation of law outlined by the constitution...at least from when I have heard him speak. And if he were to change his foreign policy to a more constitutionally rectifiable stance I bet he could have had a great chance at becoming President...But anyway, thats besides the point.


The point is not that politicians can't have influences of religion and their faith (the way huckabee obviously does), the point is that when they are representing the people they were elected by, it is their duty to leave their religious ideologies out of the equation.

reply to post by AshleyD

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It's 'creation.' Not 'creationism.' The purpose was to show the universe had a beginning- not that it was created in six literal days due to the spoken word of God. I believe that aligns with the scientific community. Unless something changed and I didn't get the memo.

When did I say creationism? Though I think that would describe some peoples undieing faith in such stories. It just might deserve an "ism" added to it...

If Bigwhammys video was not about the creation story being literal then I retract my statement, but I could have sworn that the title of the thread was something along the lines of...

"The Creation Story is Scientific Fact"

If he truly believes that, then he lends no credence to his claim of believing in "objective truth"...

reply to post by open_eyeballs

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I really have not heard of any athiests trying to spread atheism into politics.

Here's an example:

www.atheists.org...

It gives an overview of atheism in politics and drums up support from atheists.

It is the philosophy of American Atheists to win cases and to create favorable law.

American Atheists declines to give those theocrats now in power the ability to destroy the dream of our founders that citizens of our nation would enjoy the right to not be religious.

We will respectfully decline to do battle on any issues other than those where the facts and the law will compel a favorable ruling, no matter how biased the court against us. And thus we will, brick by brick, rebuild the Wall.

You can dig around the site for some more info.

Here's another where they try to tap into the 58 million American atheists for voting power in politics:

According to Ellen Johnson of American Atheists, the approximately 58 million nonbelievers in America can represent an important voting block. With the Godless Americans Political Action Committee, she is trying to make sure that politicians know of us. We can help by continuing to criticize religious idiocy and promote atheism, secular humanism, freethought, and reason. We must not be content to let the Democratic party continue to ignore us.

www.atheistrev.com...

Those kind of sound like sermons to me and just like Christians being associated with the republican party, it looks like atheists have their sights set on the Democratic party.

Here's a call to action consisting of a list atheists can do to become active, including spying on fundamentalists, secularizing state mottoes, encouraging atheists to vote, protesting prayer, and a whole slew of political involvement:

www.atheistactivist.org...

It goes on and on. There are several atheist activist societies that encourage participants to become politically involved with suggestions to vote Democrat. There have been several cases in the past of famous atheists starting the movements for serious political change like Madalyn Murray O'Hair inspiring the campaign to remove prayer from schools.

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Not bashing atheists or anyone and not trying to deflect the thread- it's unimportant to me. Just trying to answer your questions and to get others to see it is human nature for people to rally for a cause and to seek representation of their beliefs within government.

But I really don't see Christianity as being a threat. They try to revoke Roe vs. Wade: Fail. They try to get creationism in the science class: Fail. They fought to keep prayer in school: Fail. We're fading- not thriving. Etc.

But going back to the video so we don't get too sidetracked, I really don't like how it tries to portray Christians as the 'Holy Terror' and engages in tactics like photoshopped protests and trying to get the view to think a Christian basketball team is somehow scandalous.

Looking at trends, 'Christian America' is diminishing, not growing. I'm kind of the wrong person to have this discussion, though, since politics honestly bores me to tears. lol And I am a firm believer in the fact Christianity is going into decline and entering an era of persecution- not triumph or world domination. So, I'll admit it does happen that there are Christians who try to get their views represented in politics. But I will also admit that 1). It's futile. and 2). It's something most are guilty of.

[edit on 7/27/2009 by AshleyD]

reply to post by AshleyD

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I was looking for a mission statement in the first website you posted there, but could not find one. While I have no doubt there are those with a possible alterior motivation for the groups doings I found these two paragraohs rather enlightening and of well placed intentions...

The Constitution is not a suicide pact. We do not have to take every wrong to court and thereby give some theocrat the right to say that the wrongful behavior is lawful and to let that vile ruling become part of the body of the law that future judges are required to follow. This is both the glory and the danger of the legal doctrine of stare decisis, which means to “stand on the decisions” that have gone before. Brilliant, bold, freedom friendly rulings of prior courts are being systematically swept away by courts that are rendering disastrous rulings in cases with poor facts that provide them with seemingly rational reasons to rule in abominable ways

Your petitioners are Atheists, and they define their lifestyle as follows. An Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god. An Atheist accepts that heaven is something for which we should work now – here on earth – for all men together to enjoy. An Atheist accepts that he can get no help through prayer, but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it and to enjoy it. An Atheist accepts that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help lead to a life of fulfillment."

The second link there I didnt read too much because I found it on the same level as what the video was trying to expose. A form of extremism, but by its own recognizance it admits there is no real leadership with this "movement" it mentions.

Also I believe this was a link to a blog?? To me blogs dont have a great role in representing the majoritys thought...

Here is what I did not like about that particular link:

We are fed up with religion in politics. We want a President who recognizes that it would be inappropriate for him or her to discuss personal religious beliefs while in office. We've had enough of ineffective faith-based policies and are hungry for policies based on scientific findings.

I take no issue with any president speaking of his faith while in office. Not important to me. Only his policies I find important. When his religion begins to influence decision making (such as Bush saying God told him to go into Iraq) thats when there is major contention.


The third one seems to be fringe paranoia as well. Much of this stuff I dont care for and have no interest in. They seem to be doing their best to making civil statements that their is no God, but hold close to no sway in any political arena. I havent seen any evidence that they are trying to divert attention away from the constitution and towards some other source like the extreme right in the video are doing. It seems they are trying to make use of laws already in place to take God out of the picture. Again, of no concern to me. When they use their sway for policy making that is when it becomes of concern, not before.

Where as the extreme right wish to place their God over the law in public domain, in a sense creating law that requires everyone to recognize their versions of what they believe the country should be. Not the free will of the people that the United States was founded under.

To paraphrase nicely by what I mean. Religious right = "God, family, country"..and that is ok, but it needs to be maintained on a personal level. While in the political arena it must always be "Family, Country, God."

reply to post by AshleyD

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I'm glad you speak your mind and back it up with many useful facts. You are doing a great job of holding them off.

I have a couple other Christian friends that can come and help out but there arent online at the momment. They are few and far between on here.

Ive been in the same exact situation. They will never believe, until it's too late. Lots of hate and anger.

Good job.

reply to post by Blackmarketeer

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Yes! Political power aligning with religious power/control.

A church is also a place to spread the good word about a political party/candidate, just as in the 1980s illegal drug smuggling routes in Central America were also good for smuggling weapons to the Contras.

I can remember advice given to Christians about running for local offices (such as school board, library board, etc) as a first line of defense/a way to move into the larger political ring: be a "stealth candidate", don't let anyone know you're a Christian, be deceptive. At the time, I thought, "Christians aren't supposed to HIDE being a Christian...I thought we would have the strength to show our Light!?"

This type of activity would attract not only well intentioned people but persons who love being secretive, deceptive, pulling the wool over another's eyes. This could lead to charlatans taking advantage of a well intentioned flock, gaining power/wealth through religion.

A church/religion that is not transparent could easily be used by others who loathe transparency in govt. Those who want a govt with an infallible leader, a dictator, the power it gives over others, would do no better than find alliances with religious leaders desirous of temporal power, willing to act "stealthily", without transparency, to obtain it.


reply to post by toochaos4u

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When the Republican Party adopted their "Southern Strategy", they adopted the conservative Southern Baptist Convention in what turned out became the de facto national religion, via Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, etal. The GOP made sure the revival tent was big enough to include right wing, conservative Catholics, Mormons, etc.

I can remember when the Korean Unification Church supported Richard Nixon. Kinda scary quote

In 2002, during the 20th anniversary party for the Times, Moon said, "The Washington Times will become the instrument in spreading the truth about God to the world."[12]

In America, anything is possible...but we must use reason, not belief, to decide what we want possible for our day to day temporal living. Belief is good for our spiritual side, but we should cherish our belief, that spiritual side, and not let temporal, or misguided spiritual, leaders lead us astray for their own rewards. Afterall, some of us know what an Authority had to say about His Kingdom, It's not of this earth. It's what's inside that counts.
Anyone who says they can help you get His Kingdom on earth, run away from, and run fast. No matter what religion.

reply to post by open_eyeballs

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There were two massive threads that took place last year concerning atheist conspiracies. I don't want to get into it again. The two threads were something like 75 pages each with pages upon pages of evidence. I really don't want to deflect the thread but I do want to address your points.

You're basically trying to deny atheists are politically active or that they don't have enough pull or that one of those links was a blog. Yes, one of those sites was a blog but it linked to a site and explains how atheist organizations are trying to encourage 58 million American atheists to become influential in politics:

enlightenthevote.com...

EnlightenTheVote.com is a non-partisan political action committee working to get Atheists elected to office. We endorse and donate to Atheist candidates but we will also support secularists who agree with us on our issues and the civil rights of Atheists.

Non-religious Americans are a sizeable voting bloc in America and together we can make our voting strength work for us at the polls by electing politicians who support the First Amendment and the Enlightenment values of science, critical thinking and reason.

You can try to excuse or explain away their intentions or contrast their goals and intentions to Christian citizens or say what they are doing is for the right reasons. But the fact remains they are active as well and are trying to rally support from like minded individuals and harvest their collective political power.

It's human nature. Can you acknowledge there are several groups vying for sway in politics? Can you acknowledge the video in question was teeming with propaganda and absurd examples? Your answer will be revealing in terms of intellectual honesty. I can acknowledge the fact there are segments of the Christian population who attempt to influence politics. Can you acknowledge other groups attempt to do do the same?

Don't rely on my sources- do your own research. I'm just trying to show you some examples. It's not limited to Christianity or atheism by any means.

One final point I'd like to make to get us back on track and so we don't focus on distraction attempts: Yes, there are several groups, including Christians and atheists, attempting to influence politics but this is all just an attempt to keep us fighting.

You're not a Christian so I can COMPLETELY understand why you would be concerned about an alleged conspiracy by Christians to infiltrate the government and influence politics. Just like I might be concerned about another religion trying to influence the government. I have mentioned it several times before on ATS that I fully advocate separation of church and state because it is something I worry about. So I understand your concern because I'd be concerned too if I thought something I was opposed to was trying to gain political power in that realm.

The final point is I believe we need to fight the real powers at work. The real shadow governments, the real global movement, and the real puppet masters.

Jimmy Swaggart isn't it. Televangelists aren't it. A Christian basketball team or people holding a prayer meaning aren't it. This video is propaganda to create yet another bogeyman and more division among the people.

The video mentions Christians running around and executing secular humanists, astrologers, atheists like those are daily activities we instruct each other to do in a pamphlet for heaven sakes. It's insane. That video sought to demonize law abiding, peaceful citizens. Divide and conquer.

[edit on 7/27/2009 by AshleyD]

reply to post by epete22
[more

THIS VID WAS MADE IN THE US SORRY.

reply to post by wonderworld

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Im not trying to contradict christians, but fro what proof ive seen, there seems to be no DOWN FACTS about the bible. Ive been in 3 diff religions and and none of them prove anything. Heck theres more facts regarding 2012 than the bible. I had faith But didnt work and neither did praying

reply to post by RIPPYNESS

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I had faith But didnt work and neither did praying

Nice to know I'm not the only one in the complaint dept. line. It's one of the reasons I just plain quit, and I'll rip Christianity a new one any chance I get. There's something deadly nasty about religion in general- but since my experiences have been with the Christian faith- it's all I have to work with. And on.

I wouldn't doubt one bit there's a terrorist cell of JC freaks just waiting for their chance to spring- however, don't expect anything off the wall... in fact, read up on Revelations. Their dirty work will be directly influenced from it, and the book of Daniel. Possibly a couple other books, too.. These people are trying to bring about the end of the world so they can cash in on streets of gold. That's all- GOLD. They don't give a flying whit about anyone else but themselves. They've read about all the treasure- gold, jewels, precious metals of every sort, and they're in drool overload... trying to ruin OUR lives so they can get holy bling.

reply to post by AshleyD

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You're basically trying to deny atheists are politically active

Not at all. Im saying those links you provided (at least the first one) I saw no interference with the rights and powers appointed by the constitution. That is my only point.

You can try to excuse or explain away their intentions or contrast their goals and intentions to Christian citizens or say what they are doing is for the right reasons.

I dont know why you said this. Yes I am comparing the athiest movement to the religious right because you highlighted it and brought them into the equation. I am not saying they are doing anything for the "right" reasons at all. I am ignorant to their intentions or motivations. All I had to go off was the quick parusal of each website. So again, from what I saw their was no intention of deviation from the constitution the way the video outlines the intentions of its suspects, the religious right.

Can you acknowledge there are several groups vying for sway in politics?

Absolutely.

Can you acknowledge the video in question was teeming with propaganda and absurd examples?

When their is a video of a preacher raising the Bible and proclaiming that America was founded on the principles of the Bible and not the Constitution then no, I can not acknowldedge the video was "teeming" with propoganda. I saw nothing that portrayed the extreme right in an inaccurate way.

Your answer will be revealing in terms of intellectual honesty. I can acknowledge the fact there are segments of the Christian population who attempt to influence politics. Can you acknowledge other groups attempt to do do the same?

I have no problem with acknowledgement of many different groups attempting to influence politics. I have no problem with any of them including Christian citizens in their attempt to do so. It is not the application of universal morals to the law I have contention with. It is the attempt to undermine what has been layed down in the Bill of Rights already, or the attempt to impose views (no matter what they may be..athiest, christian, etc., etc.) via the political mechanism. It is blatantly clear in the constitution that no religion shall have a role in the governing of the people of the United States of America. Period.

And there is darn good reason for this.

Don't rely on my sources- do your own research. I'm just trying to show you some examples. It's not limited to Christianity or atheism by any means.

I understand and agree.

I have mentioned it several times before on ATS that I fully advocate separation of church and state because it is something I worry about. So I understand your concern because I'd be concerned too if I thought something I was opposed to was trying to gain political power in that realm.

Again, it is not a problem with me when a politician holds a faith in whatever religion. Im positive he would have lobbyists in his ear at all times doing their best to influence his vote one way or another on legislation. But as soon as he crosses that line where he becomes a figurehead for a known political movement and that known political movement has an advanced agenda to change attitude towards or outright null the constitution then thats where the concern lies. And thats what the right has become accustom too. Where once they were champions of the constitution they have become the new paper shredder under the Oval offices desk.

To give this some sort of closure, I believe it needs to be stated that your average christian law abidding citizen is not the problem here. You mentioned televangelists. While many of these are snake oil salesmen, they are not the problem either, but what they do do (and what i accuse the religious right of having done) is to help advance a style of thinking that is not conducive to the argument that all men are created equal. Does that mean they should be outlawed. Of course not! That would be heavily to the contrary of my beliefs and the principles outlined in the constitution. But for those of us who wish to not participate in this style of thinking it would be very appropriate for us to keep a keen eye on such aggressive proxy political agendas. That goes for the extreme liberal left and the extreme neo-conservative religious right.


[edit on 29-7-2009 by open_eyeballs]

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