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5 Freedoms You'll Lose In Health Care Reform

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posted on Jul, 27 2009 @ 10:28 AM
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Those 20 million are the ones the right wants to see die off anyway, so it's no loss by their lights.

Funny how the folks who reject Darwin are the same ones promoting social Darwinism.

As someone who is working but has no health insurance ATM (my policy goes live on 8/1 finally), prescription drug costs alone make it almost impossible to pay my rent...

While I can't say I am 100% delighted with the proposed system, it sure as hell beats having 20 million people with no access to healthcare other than going to the Emergency room, which is supposed to be for emergencies.

Ask any ER doc how well that works




posted on Jul, 27 2009 @ 11:49 AM
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reply to post by Retseh
 


It's called the Hospice Concept. My Dad was in a Hospice plan for the last 18 months of his very colorful life. (He was 90 when he passed) It boils down to this (as it was explained to me):
If you are terminal (last stages of whatever it is they cannot cure you of) or your body is in such a state that if you'd need some type of emergency surgery you simply would not survive it, then the focus of treatment changes from rehabilitate (or corrective procedures) to making sure you are comfortable and not in pain.
I didn't like the idea either. Not one bit. But, when you come to understand the reality ... For me that was knowing Dad would never have survived surgery if, say ... his kidneys failed.
And seeing that, when the end neared (Your bodies organs tend to fail with a cascading affect just before) he was still his upbeat self, and resting comfortably ... without any pain.
And, I have to say I'd rather have that memory then the alternative.

Anyway ... As to 'losing' anything to health care reform:
First, consider the source of malcontent -The MSM of CNN.

Nothing has passed into law. Obama wants both houses to come up with plans that will work for 98% of the population without hurting those who happen to like their coverage. They are works in progress.

Which brings me to a point ... Are you trying to tell me you actually LIKE the coverage your PPO provides? How many times has your coverage costs gone up, AND actual coverage (What they cover as far as procedures, etc.) has increased? Never, right? A lot of times coverage decreases.

Wake up folks. Think for yourself. Who really would lose if reforms were passed on health care? Not the patients.
Who then?
The insurers. you know ... those multi-billion dollar companies who fight you tooth and nail when they get a $190.00 xray exam bill and say ... "We didn't approve of this. We don't CARE what your Doctor ordered ... we won't pay it".
(Actually happened to me. The Mofo's.)



posted on Jul, 27 2009 @ 12:01 PM
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www.msnbc.msn.com...

So @ 10% of health case costs are directly "due to obesity..."

At the risk of sounding like someone who is bitter but who is VERY tired of paying through the nose for private health care coverage yet watches in SHOCK as middle aged women on "pride scooters" in Walmart munch oreos directly out of the bag,is there anything in all of this to give a "break" to those of us who work hard at maintaining good health,fitness,and by hard work and discipline manage to stay OUT of doctor's offices?

I don't think so...

So another "right" I'm personally expected to give up is that right to choose whom I am required to pay for I guess?

[edit on 27-7-2009 by irishchic]



posted on Jul, 27 2009 @ 12:25 PM
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I cannot support any Healthcare bill that Congress exempts themselves from. If its so great, then why don't they sign themselves up first?



posted on Jul, 27 2009 @ 12:45 PM
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Originally posted by Merigold
I have 25 years experience living in the US, there were times I could not afford insurance, there were times when I wasn't poor enough to get medicade. There were times when I could afford insurance, but the copays were high, or the insurance company refused to pay because of "pre exsisiting" conditions - or they said I didn't need the treatment.

Sorry, but I call BS.
I don't believe you.
Let's see.....by your words, you have 5 different scenarios for why you could not get insurance. Sorry, but that just sound like you are spewing talking points with absolutely NO experience in any of those situations. Most people throughout there lifetime might come across 1 or 2 of those scenarios but all 5? Please, I am not buying what you are selling.


I better put my boots on because the # is getting deep.



posted on Jul, 27 2009 @ 12:45 PM
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reply to post by ag2000
 


I take it you didn't see the press conference Obama had last week.
He said, and I don't have the exact quote but youtube has the vid ...

He isn't doing this health care reform for him. He pointed out that there is a Doctor who follows him around everywhere he goes, so he, personally doesn't need coverage reform. lol And Congress already has health care coverage as part of their own Government employee package. So, for them it isn't an immediate need either.
Then he said:
If I told you that there is a system that is guaranteed to increase in cost in the next few years, making it more and more unaffordable for businesses and individuals to keep, and the actual coverage of services will decrease ... What would you think of that plan?
That's the way the system is now, today.
Not such a good thing, ya think?



posted on Jul, 27 2009 @ 12:51 PM
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Originally posted by xmotex
While I can't say I am 100% delighted with the proposed system, it sure as hell beats having 20 million people with no access to healthcare other than going to the Emergency room, which is supposed to be for emergencies.

So in your wisdom, instead of just tweaking the current system in order to fix the problem, you want to destroy it by reinventing the wheel and ruining it for the other 280 million. Again, the liberal mindset is that we must change our ways and way of life for the minority. 80% of the people are happy with the current system. I'm sure that number will increase with the tweaking of the current system to bring down costs.

There is no need for government to step in. Hell, government is the reason why the current costs are so expensive and 20 million cannot afford it. So by your flawed logic, let give the government even more control. This way everybody will be unhappy and not able to afford decent care.



posted on Jul, 27 2009 @ 02:07 PM
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reply to post by WhatTheory
 





So in your wisdom, instead of just tweaking the current system in order to fix the problem,


Unfortunately private hospitals, health insurance companies and pharmaceuticals had every opportunity over the past decades to tweak themselves but they never did. Instead they introduced the $20 paracetamol, patient dumping and the uninsured classes.

It is all about corporate gluttony and it must end.


Patient dumping



Patient Dumping: Another Dark Side of Health Care


By Michael D. Shaw

Politicians of all stripes love to talk about the crisis in health care, but all you hear about is access and financing. No one ever seems to be concerned with quality and outcomes. But, here is a story where access and financing—of an indigent patient—were no problem, until she had to be discharged.

Rumors had been circulating for years about a practice called "patient dumping," whereby hapless patients—largely homeless individuals—are dropped off in Skid Row, upon discharge. The theory is that this part of town would have an abundance of services for these unfortunates, and the hot potato could simply be passed along.

The health care industry tried to relegate these rumors to the status of alien abduction tales, until one of these incidents was caught on tape in March, 2006.www.gasdetection.com...



posted on Jul, 27 2009 @ 02:41 PM
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Originally posted by HunkaHunka

I know you didn't ask me... but here is the biggest problem.

Making profit off human sickness while at the same time denying coverage to people who have duly paid for over a decade.

We need to remove the profit motive from:

Healthcare

Prisons

And a few other things as well...


That is exactly right. Profit needs to be removed from certain industries. Healthcare, basic food, energy, basic communications, etc. Fix that and most of us could afford healthcare. and other life neccesities.

Unlike most posters here, I would like to see the goverment much more involved in healthcare than proposed. I would like to see them fund all offices and equipment neccesary for healthcare delivery and pay doctors, nurses, etc. based on how well the deliver the healthcare. Doesn't mean the doctors can't still make big money if they deliver great care. In fact most doctors I talked too would definitely be willing to accept lower pay if they didn't have the burden of their office overhead and malpractice insurance, etc. Remove the risk for doctors and we would see a much better healthcare system.



posted on Jul, 27 2009 @ 02:49 PM
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Originally posted by chise61
reply to post by Inannamute
 



There's always the freedom to die, or suffer, because you have no coverage at all..


This is true, and it sucks for those that want health coverage. However they have no right to force peole to get health coverage if they don't want it. This country is quickly becoming a facist regime where they are attempting to make every single decision for us to the point of mandating what we can and can't do to our own bodies.

If they want to tweak the health care system that's fine, but it must voluntary, not mandatory. And they can't have a system that says once people have government coverage they can never change back.


Let's say we allow people to decline health care coverage. Do we also ban them from using emergency rooms and the such? If not, then we are still paying for their coverage and at a much higher rate than neccesary.



posted on Jul, 27 2009 @ 02:51 PM
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reply to post by LatentElement
 




He isn't doing this health care reform for him. He pointed out that there is a Doctor who follows him around everywhere he goes, so he, personally doesn't need coverage reform. lol And Congress already has health care coverage as part of their own Government employee package. So, for them it isn't an immediate need either.


Well, It's not an immediate need for me either, so why am I going to be forced into it if they aren't? Does that make any sense to you?

If this plan is so great, then why don't they get rid of their government employee health coverage (that we pay for) and sign up for this new and better plan? What? It's not better...Then either sign me up for what they got since its so great or leave me the F*UCK alone and let me decide what I do with my healthcare.



posted on Jul, 27 2009 @ 03:09 PM
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Originally posted by chise61
reply to post by Inannamute
 



There's always the freedom to die, or suffer, because you have no coverage at all..


This is true, and it sucks for those that want health coverage. However they have no right to force peole to get health coverage if they don't want it. This country is quickly becoming a facist regime where they are attempting to make every single decision for us to the point of mandating what we can and can't do to o

If they want to tweak the health care system that's fine, but it must voluntary, not mandatory. And they can't have a system that says once people have government coverage they can never change back.


So if you decline coverage are then ineligible for emergency services that you can't pay for. Should we just let the uninsured die from cancer and lie in the street after being hit by an unisured mororist? Or deny treatment to uninsured kids who fall out of trees?

The fact remains we will always treat the uninsured because we are caring humans , and in emergencies and we will have to foot the bill anyways.

Edit Sorry for the duplicate post although it is worded a bit differently so I am leaving it.

[edit on 27-7-2009 by sligtlyskeptical]



posted on Jul, 27 2009 @ 04:21 PM
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Originally posted by masonwatcher
Unfortunately private hospitals, health insurance companies and pharmaceuticals had every opportunity over the past decades to tweak themselves but they never did. Instead they introduced the $20 paracetamol, patient dumping and the uninsured classes.

No, you are still NOT getting it. ** SIGH **
You have all these problems currently because of government. Hospitals and health insurance companies and bound by the current glutony of government regulations and mandates such as the HMO Act. (See some of my previous posts) Healthcare was affordable before government intervention.

If you don't like the current system with the current level of government control, why on earth would you believe that giving government total control would improve the situation?
The way to fix the current problem is to reduce government involvement.



posted on Jul, 27 2009 @ 05:45 PM
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reply to post by WhatTheory
 


I believe it was a NY State senator, he had somehow heard about what was happening, and called me to ask me....(think hubby's boss had something to do with it.) I told him what was going one, and went further to point out that hey, I was kind of seeing the whole thing a little unconstitutional, just like I am saying here...it is unconstitutional to take resources from one person, to provide charity care for another group that is beyond what the one you are taking the resources from is enjoying! I also pointed out how stupid the whole thing was, ya, I could kick my husband out of the house, and gee, the whole thing would be paid for via taxdollars, but, just how sane was that one, I mean, he was doing his best to keep the bills paid up, we weren't making enough! I could prove it on paper....or well, I could just sit there, and well.....just resign my self to never walking again, and hey, the gov't would be paying me disability, now wouldn't they....and well....I informed him that that was what I was intending on doing! well, he seemed to agree with me about the stupidity of the whole thing, and the unconstitutionality, or at least that's what he said, and we said our goodbyes, not 15 minutes later the doctor called me, and well, was wanting to arrange the surgery....gee...

this is a story that I have posted on this board, many many times, heck, I was on here posting it while it was happening.
and I am sure I will be telling it again when someone pipes up with this fallacy that oh, all who needs medical care can get it, just by going to the emergency room...

the idea that the care one can get out of the emergency room somehow equates to what one gets from a medicaid card is just a myth.

or a lie....

whichever...

social service is what is draining the funds??? really??

what about....


Text


"162,000 for a study that sends college students into the wild to collect ticks and plant them on lab mice."

"$25 each to 100 residents of the Pacific Island of Palau for scientists to draw samples of their blood."

"$783,000 for a study that invites 100 malt liquor and marijuana users in Buffalo to call in and punch numbers on the telephone to record their habits each day. Each will be paid at least $45 for their time."

"Academic researchers are pleased with the extra billions of dollars to make advances in understanding diseases, drugs and global warming. But the spending raises the question: Can two years of academic research make jobs and stimulate the economy?"

the above quotes were taking from:

www.syracuse.com...



that is just one story that I ran into today.....
the stories seem to pop up alot, so well, there's alot of waste to be found, if one wishes to look!!
and well, bush was just about as bad going through the money as the dems are now, so I don't want to hear the partisan crap!

have you seriously thought of the repercussions if we were to stop the social programs tommorrow??
first, do you seriously think that the taxpayer would be getting the savings that it would produce in the for of lower taxes?
but, well, how many rental units in your area are being paid for by HUD vouchers? take away those vouchers and well. those landlords don't get paid!
I've known school bus drivers, teacher's aides, store clerks, factory workers, office workers, and the list goes on and on, that had their income supplemented by these programs. so, ummm....care to take a guess what would happen if these people didn't get that supplement? do you think that they will want a raise, or that the lack of income might in some way affect their work? you think it might affect their spending habits, and well, they won't be renting that apartment like I said, but also, might not be visiting the doctor as often, not buying the drugs, not buying as much food, not buying as much crap imported from china....think they would pay that electric bill that was being paid for by heap?? or buying as much school supplies come september?
our economy has become addicted to all this money being handed out by the government, our healthcare system wouldn't need as many doctors, we wouldn't need as many drugs, we wouldn't need as many apartments, ect....because, well......the people would not be able to afford them!
how about if we get rid of the crap like I listed above before we completely shut down the economy!

as far as the pain killer I was given, if I remember right, it was rather cheap, not the newest and the best....ya, know, like, umm...the generics are good enough for me anyways, really they are, they've been on the market longer, there's a better chance that if they were gonna kill me, well, they probably would have killed others by now and maybe even been taken off the market.



posted on Jul, 27 2009 @ 05:47 PM
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reply to post by WhatTheory
 


don't feel bad marigold, he doesn't believe me either.....

oh well, what can I say.....one liners aren't liked!



posted on Jul, 27 2009 @ 05:52 PM
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Originally posted by WhatTheory

No, you are still NOT getting it. ** SIGH **
You have all these problems currently because of government. Hospitals and health insurance companies and bound by the current glutony of government regulations and mandates such as the HMO Act. (See some of my previous posts) Healthcare was affordable before government intervention.

If you don't like the current system with the current level of government control, why on earth would you believe that giving government total control would improve the situation?
The way to fix the current problem is to reduce government involvement.


gee we got rid of a little of the regulation in the banking industry...look where it go us??

but, let's not debate that, let's say that the mess we are in is all the fault of the government, that their actions caused it all.....
so, well, seems reasonable to me that if they caused the danged mess, well, it's their responsibility to clean it up and make it so that it serves the people again, not just a bunch of top managers of big corps in the health insurance and health providers field?



posted on Jul, 27 2009 @ 06:07 PM
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The point of reform in the first place is that private insurance is just too costly. I went to public school and I can tell you, not one child in my high school had insurance. I would laugh when I saw commercials that said "Talk to your doctor." What doctor? And most private companies do not CARE about their clients and go to extremes to deny them coverage. People are scared of what socialized medicine would do. In the UK the NHS has a tax price, but is a far superior system than the US. The reason is the overall greed and disdain the rich have for the poor. Thinking, "Why should I pay taxes for the lazy poor to get free health care?" This is the common way of American thinking. The mindset to look after one's self and care not for others.



posted on Jul, 27 2009 @ 08:32 PM
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Originally posted by masonwatcher


If you don't like the current system with the current level of government control, why on earth would you believe that giving government total control would improve the situation?
The way to fix the current problem is to reduce government involvement.


The current problem, in my opinion, is that there are millions of people in this country who can't go see a doctor when they are sick. This leads to ridiculous things like having an ambulance take a child to the ER when they have a fever because the family doesn't have insurance. Can't go to the doctor's office without insurance, but the ER can't refuse treatment. This costs the taxpayers more in the long run.

Health care should be on the short list with fire & police service as things that every person living in this country should be entitled to.

Perhaps this bill is not the most efficient or eloquent way of solving the problem, but you can't put a price on a healthy populace.

If everyone in this country was as healthy as they could be, the overall cost to society would be diminished, not increased. More productivity, less time off of work, more able bodied workers. And don't get me started on how far we could go as a nation if everyone was well educated as well as healthy.

Bottom line, we as Americans deserve the high quality of life that we can achieve. Growing up healthy should not be a privilege reserved for kids who's parents work for an employer kind enough to offer affordable family coverage.


[edit on 27-7-2009 by suicydking]



posted on Jul, 28 2009 @ 12:06 AM
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Originally posted by dawnstar
gee we got rid of a little of the regulation in the banking industry...look where it go us??

This is not the thread for this discussion. Let's just say that I would hate to prove you wrong here also because we all know it WAS caused by government interference in the form of Congress mandating to bank that they MUST lend to groups who they knew could not afford a house. Oh, yeah, since 2006 when the Dem's took over Congress.



posted on Jul, 28 2009 @ 12:16 AM
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Originally posted by AngelHeart
The point of reform in the first place is that private insurance is just too costly.

You are not getting it or just refuse to read posts.

Private insurance is to costly for some because of government involvement. Is that clear enough?

Again, healthcare costs was not an issue before the government stepped in with the HMO act. This started the snowball effect of government interference. Government needs to step back and get rid of all the excessive taxes and regulations.

History of HMO's



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